REPORTS ON A 1914 HUMBERETTE RESTORATION

[Mike Macartney]

37 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I find that using my drill press allows me to "feel" the drill better. The milling machine is probably more accurate but you have no sense of when you are pushing too hard.

 

I did this little job for a friend the other day, trying to remove a broken stud in a turbocharger. Look what happened to the drill - it cut the hole but knackered the Dewalt heavy duty drill bit he supplied to the job. I found out the hard way that you are right!

 

 

 

Still puzzling how I can get the rest of the stud out?

 

 

[Laughing Coyote]

Carbide dremel bit.  wear gloves, the little metal shavings are a pain to get out.

[JV Puleo]

It looks to me as if the speed was too high for the diameter. What is is made of? It looks like cast iron. Can you heat it and use an "easy out"? You have to be very careful with those because if you break it in the hole you are really in trouble but with fairly large holes like that it should work. I find they are worthless with small holes.

 

You could also drill it out a little bigger...just enough to almost touch the minor diameter of the thread. At some point you'll reduce the stud to just what is in the threads... I'd try the easy out first but not using too much force if it doesn't move.

 

A good trick for removing studs or broken screws is to use a left-handed drill...as it get hot if a chip catches it will unscrew all by itself.

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

Cutting fluid would also prevents the overheating. I suppose the suds are not hardened but made with a strong steel.

[Mike Macartney]

22 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Can you heat it and use an "easy out"? You have to be very careful with those because if you break it in the hole you are really in trouble

 

I have been there Joe, and got the T-shirt!

 

I have some left hand drills, I may try one of them, if I have one that is slightly bigger than the hole I have already drilled.

 

22 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Carbide dremel bit.  wear gloves, the little metal shavings are a pain to get out.

 

If it comes to that I will lend my friend my Dremel tool and he can have a go getting the rest of the stud out. He only bought this turbo from eBay as a spare, in case he ever needed it in the future, for his Volvo!

[Mike Macartney]

I am still trying to catch up with writing my posts, I think I am now about to report on the end of last week, the longer I leave it, the harder it is to think back to what I have done?

 

 

I cut off the threaded end part, to get it machined, ready to fit to the other end of the drawbar. I needed to drill out and bore the rest of the 1-1/2" bar as I had not gone deep enough when I drilled and bored it from the other end.

 

 

Will the tube fit on?

 

 

Well, that's a bonus!

 

 

Now I am ready to braze this onto the end of the drawbar.

 

It now must be Saturday morning . . . .

 

 

. . . . because Jane and I went to have a look at the work Paul Moore had done on the interior of the body. He informed us that this was the first time he had ever done any 'button back' seat work. We were both amazed at work he has carried out for us on the seats and the hood. We arranged to come and collect the body on Tuesday when he would have more staff on hand to help lift the body into the back of our Ford Transit van.

 

I went back to working on the drawbar

 

 

Just in case it was difficult to unscrew the drawbar from the back of the 5C collet when I wanted to remove a collet from the spindle adapter I decided to make a hollow bolt to fit inside the end of the drawbar tube at the back end of the spindle. I turned down the hexagonal bar and cut a relief at the end to the depth of the thread.

 

 

For readers not familiar with thread cutting on a lathe you have this dial connected to the leadscrew of the lathe. The dial in the middle, with the lines and numbers on, rotates with the rotation of the lathes leadscrew. There is also a lever that connects the carriage to the leadscrew. The dial has four lines, marked 1 to 4. Which means, I am pretty sure, that you could actually cut a thread with four starting points. I have never attempted, to date, anything other than cutting a single point thread. When cutting a single point thread you can push the lever down to connect the carriage to the leadscrew on any one of the four marks. Do you sometimes wish that you had never started trying to explain something?  Well for me I think this is just one of those times! When you do push the lever down to connect the carriage to the leadscrew the thread will start cutting in the same place every time as long as you don't move the metal you are cutting or the top slide (the part the tool post is bolted to).

 

 

This is showing the lathe cutting the first 5 thou cut of the thread. With the 20 TPI thread I was cutting I needed to go to a final depth of 32 thou.

 

 

I found, in one of my draws, that I had a thread chaser for a 20 TPI thread, so I thought I would try using it. Never used one before. It appears to take the 'sharp bits' off the top of the thread. Next, to cut a female thread in the other part.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Mike Macartney
Added a bit more (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The numbers on the threading gauge aren't, as far as I know, for cutting a multiple start thread. Usually there will be some sort of plate on the machine explaining them but, as just a guess, I'd say it might be any even number of threads, use any line. For an odd number of threads you may need 1 & 3... There are a lot of different types and I'm not familiar with one that only has 4 marks. I've only seen them with intermediate marks as well. The plate on my machine that explains them is actually wrong. It says "any mark for an even number of threads" when it should say "any mark for an even number divisible by 4" I know this because I accidentally cut a multiple start thread once by using an intermediate line. I was cutting 6 TPI which is even but not divisible by 4. To cut a multiple start thread, I'd use a dog driver with the correct number of holes...cut one thread then move the dog to the next hole. It's something I'll try one of these days but I've never had a need to do it.

[Mike Macartney]

13 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

The numbers on the threading gauge aren't, as far as I know, for cutting a multiple start thread.

 

After looking it up you are quite correct. What I wrote was a load of 'codswallop'. It just goes to show that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and you can't believe everything you read on the internet! For even pitch threads 16, 18, 20 TPI etc. threads you can use any of the 4 divisions. Odd pitch threads, 15, 17, 19 TPI et. you can use any two of the opposite divisions either 1 and 3, or 2 and 4. In my Myford manual it says - "Only one mark must be used when cutting half-threads, such as 11-1/2 TPI". My question is when would you use a half-thread?

[JV Puleo]

BSP - British Standard Pipe. We have NTP which is similar but still slightly different.

 

(EDIT) You probably could do an odd number, 2-start thread by cutting one with the 1&3 setting than starting over and using the 2&4. I wonder if they make multiple start taps?

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[chistech]

10 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

After looking it up you are quite correct. What I wrote was a load of 'codswallop'. It just goes to show that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and you can't believe everything you read on the internet! For even pitch threads 16, 18, 20 TPI etc. threads you can use any of the 4 divisions. Odd pitch threads, 15, 17, 19 TPI et. you can use any two of the opposite divisions either 1 and 3, or 2 and 4. In my Myford manual it says - "Only one mark must be used when cutting half-threads, such as 11-1/2 TPI". My question is when would you use a half-thread?

I think watching that chuck spinning and too much beer was behind it😂😂

[Mike Macartney]

I think it is going to be more the chuck spinning or the lack of beer! Since packing up the smoking I have avoided the pub and not had a beer at home, just in case it leads me astray and I am tempted to roll myself a ciggy!

 

I am jumping forward a bit here with the photos. On Tuesday this week, Jane and I collected the Humberette body from Paul Moore the coach trimmer, with the hood up it just fitted in the back of our Ford Transit van.

 

 

It is heavier to lift now with the windshield etc., attached.

 

 

It looks rather 'sweet' sitting in the van!

 

On Wednesday night I did join the rest of the 'Old Boys' (Saga Louts) at the pub for a drink and asked if they could help me take the body out of the van. They came round on Friday morning and we relocated the body to the workshop. I was under strict instructions not to attempt the lifting. I just watched while four people did the job. I was out of 'puff' just watching them!

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,

You sure know how to put the heat on the rest of us!  Nice progress you are making.  With your ventilating doing much better, your engine better look out as you will be all over that shortly and have a runner!

Al

[chistech]

Hey Mike, try doing like Rodney Dangerfield did to stop smoking. He said he agreed with his wife to only smoke one cigarette after sex. He then said he had pretty much quit but his wife was up to two packs a day!

[Mike Macartney]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 5:22 PM, chistech said:

Hey Mike, try doing like Rodney Dangerfield did to stop smoking

 

Ted, I have tried to think of something amusing to write as a reply, but you have stumped me. Jane has never smoked, although, she does burst in to flames very occasionally!

 

I have kept putting off recording the lathe work I have been doing. Mainly as it has become a bit repetitive. Suffice to say the drawbar is now finished and works with the 5C collets.

 

Below is a precis of the work.

 

 

Decided to make a hollow nut for the end of the drawbar.

 

 

Brazed the threaded end into the tube and machined it. 

 

 

Fitted the hollow nut into the end of the drawbar.

 

 

Fitted a collet into the adapter and screwed in the drawbar.

 

 

Tightened up the large threaded nut that pushes the clutch release bearing onto the end of the lathe spindle shaft an pulls the collet into the spindle adapter.

 

 

Checked out the run out. It was less than 0.001.

 

 

Solved the problem of the threaded chuck locking ring rattling about by cutting a ring of foam to push in when a chuck was not fitted.

 

From the above photos it does look as everything went 'swimmingly' - it didn't! There were problems along the way.

 

I used this measuring device first of all, to check the runout, it appeared to show that I had nearly 8 thou runout. I then devised a method of trying to make the closing taper for 5C collet at an accurate 9-3/4 degrees. (9.75 degrees) as recommended for the 10 degrees of the collets. I will show my method next time.

[chistech]

Ted, I have tried to think of something amusing to write as a reply, but you have stumped me. Jane has never smoked, although, she does burst in to flames very occasionally!

 

 

i don’t think Rodney’s wife did either Mike but he had some of the best one or two line jokes. 

 

Here’s another: The other day my wife met me at the door in a sexy negligee.............Problem was, she was coming home!

[zipdang]

"Oh yeah?," quotes Rodney, "My wife's cooking is so bad I bought her an oven that flushes."

[alsfarms]

Mike, I am genuinely impressed with your new collet and draw-bar addition for your lathe!  I can see building a similar item in the future especially if you are able to hold to .001 runout for your repeatability! How is your aspiration lately...still hanging in good!  Are you able to stay away from the firesticks?  Is your good wife helping your with that change of doing?

Al

[Mike Macartney]

Al, thanks for the comments on the drawbar. The no smoking is going well. It is now 30 days 21 hours since I last had a cigarette - not that I'm counting! I am still getting my 'nicotine hit' from the nicotine chewing gum, I started that when I packed up smoking once before, just after I retired. I started smoking again a couple of years later when my breathing started getting bad. It seemed to help at the time with the breathing, but I soon got 'hooked' on both the chewing gum and the roll ups! Jane, and everybody else around me is very pleased that my mood has remained reasonably cheerful and that I have not become a 'miserable git'. I still miss it, especially first thing in the mornings, when I sit at the kitchen table drinking the first cup of tea of the day and reading the emails on my laptop computer. Being hooked on nicotine back in the 1960's, at least stopped me from ever trying non prescribed drugs!

[alsfarms]

That is good news Mike, hang in there with the fire sticks going cold!

Al

[JV Puleo]

I'm curious as to how you corrected the taper on the collet adapter. That is a really good piece of work, probably a lot more precise than any car work is.

[John S.]

Mike, what is the wheelbase on the Humberette?  Really nice work as always. John

[Mike Macartney]

12 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I'm curious as to how you corrected the taper on the collet adapter.

 

Thanks Joe for reminding me about this. I originally made the taper approximately 9 degrees by setting over the compound slide. Looking on the internet it said the taper for the closer for the 5C collet should be 1/4 degree less than the 10 degrees.

 

Drawing of the 5C collet showing the 10 degree angle.

 

 

When I found that the round metal bar I had fitted in the collet was not running true, the first time I tried fitting a collet in the spindle adapter. 

 

 

I scratched my head and thought about how could I possibly cut an angle as accurate as 9.75 degrees.

 

Not having a 'fag packet' as I had packed up smoking! I sketched out an idea on the back of an envelope.

 

 

With trigonometry on right angle triangles,  if you know one angle and one length, you can find out the other measurements. Life is made a lot easier now with calculators on the internet rather than having to use log tables.

 

 

First of all I checked the length of tailstock barrel I had. I then checked how much travel I had on my cross slide.

 

It seemed that 4 inches was the maximum I could use (see the back of an envelope drawing and calculations). The longer the length I could use, the more accurate my angle would be. To give me some idea of the different measurements for 'x' on the sketch for different angles. I calculated the 'x' measurements for angles of 10, 9.5, 9.9, 9.8, 9.7, 9.6, and 9.75 degrees.

 

If I was to use the tailstock barrel for measuring the angle I needed to make sure that the barrel was perfectly parallel with the lathe bed. I tried running the dial gauge along the barrel and adjusting the tailstock but managed to get myself into a complete muddle! The tailstock was more out of line than when I first started the adjustments!

 

I decided to use the tried and tested method of machining a bar at both ends to check they were both the same diameter.

 

Just to show that not everything goes to plan!

 

 

Oh dear, what a shame, never mind. Let's try again!

 

 

After a few trial cuts and adjustments to the offset of the tailstock . . . .

 

 

One end measured. . . .

 

 

The other end measured.

 

. . . . I managed to get the tailstock back to the correct place. The diameters at each end of the bar measured the same.

[Mike Macartney]

Now I needed to make mark out a length of 4 inches.

 

 

Set my dividers at 4 inches.

 

 

Brushed some marking out blue onto the tailstock barrel and marked the positions of 4 inch length.

 

 

Insulated a lathe cutting tool with some thin cardboard and rigged up a bulb with a battery so that the bulb would light when the sharp end of the lathe tool was touching the tailstock barrel. I then set the cross slide dial to zero.

 

 

The compound slide that had been set over, by eye, to 9.75 degrees was wound out to the approximate position of the 4 inch mark. The cross slide was turned in until it nearly touched the tailstock barrel and the compound slide was moved until it was exactly at the 4 inch mark. The cross slide was then turned in until the bulb lit and . . . .

 

 

. . . . the reading read off on the cross slide. Therefore on my first attempt, as shown in the above photo I had turned the cross slide in by just under 0.691". Looking back at my drawing 'x' at 0.691" equals 9.8 degrees. The distance I was looking for was 0.688" for 9.75 degrees.

 

 

I gave the compound  slide a 'nudge' with the handle end of a hammer and checked what the measurement 'x' was again.

 

 

This time I got 0.686 inches which I thought was good enough. I am sure that 2 thou out over 4 inches should be acceptable.

 

 

I then turned round the tool post and fitted a rounded end cutting tool into the end of boring bar and recut the taper which worked out OK when I refitted the 5C collet and tightened it up with the drawbar that I had made.

 

I now think I better get on with some more work on the engine that I have been putting off for some time.

[Mike Macartney]

12 hours ago, John S. said:

Mike, what is the wheelbase on the Humberette?

 

Hi John, the wheelbase is 7 ft 5 in and the track is 3 ft 6 in.

[JV Puleo]

That was REALLY clever. I'm not sure I'm up to the math myself but now that I've seen how it's done, it's worth struggling through.

 

jp

[mike6024]

arcTangent( .688/4.00 ) = about 9.75 degrees

[Mike Macartney]

This is the link to the right angle triangle calculator that I used.

 

If you know the angle you want and either of one of the lengths of the other three sides of the triangle it will work out all the other sides and angle for you.

 

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm

 

It saves have to remember that "Some People Have Curly Black Hair To Prevent Baldness"

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike, Are you diving into your engine again?  I can hardly wait for your next update!

Al

[alsfarms]

Mike, Is your weather getting "fall like" or are you in the banana belt where the birds sing all winter?

Al

[chistech]

6 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Mike, Is your weather getting "fall like" or are you in the banana belt where the birds sing all winter?

Al

All of us that restore cars live in the banana belt in one way or the other!

[Mike Macartney]

Sorry for the dearth of posting recently. I have been laid up for a week, nothing serious, I have not been capable of doing very much. Got back to normal on Friday and carried on with some of the work to the engine conrods.

 

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 2:30 PM, alsfarms said:

Is your weather getting "fall like" or are you in the banana belt where the birds sing all winter?

 

Al, yes, it is now Autumn and 'fall like'. Below is a photo out of our kitchen door that I took for you a couple of minutes ago.

 

 

17 hours ago, chistech said:

All of us that restore cars live in the banana belt in one way or the other!

 

Ted, you are definitely right there!

 

 

I eventually plucked up the courage to machine out the smaller big end to fit the 14mm drill rod I bought some time ago to replace the 'shot' smaller big end pin.

 

Next, I needed to machine the bush on the smaller conrod to fit the diameter of the new big end pin.

 

 

Eventually I managed to clamp the conrod and drill and ream the hole. I used a drill in the end that I found that was just under 14mm and then put the reamer through the bush.

 

 

I was worried that the speed on my mill was too high at its lowest speed, so I put a socket and ratchet on the drawbar and turned the reamer by hand.

 

 

Getting the drill rod to line up with the smaller conrod was a bit of a problem.

 

Once it fitted I cut the drill rod down to the approximate length required.

 

 

I measured the length of the pin and the measurement across the larger big end and needed to take off 0.126" from the length.

 

 

I think the photo above of the conrods and my comments on the photo describe my thoughts!

Edited November 9, 2019 by Mike Macartney
spelling (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

. . . . carrying on from the last post.

 

 

The large big end journal has an oil hole on this side and another oil hole . . . .

 

 

. . . . on this side. I cleaned both of the oil holes out with a drill. On the smaller conrod there is only an oil hole on one side. I had a look to see if I could drill another oil hole on the other side, but thought better of it as I could not think of a easy way to hold the conrod for drilling.

 

 

I had been wondering how to open up the hole for the 4mm diameter spiral locking pin in the smaller of the big end pins. A friend visited, to see how I was getting on with the Humberette and I showed him the problem. He said "Why don't you drill a hole for the pin on the other side?" Doh! - Why didn't I think of that!

 

 

OK, how am I going to fit this in the mill to drill the hole for the spiral pin? This idea is definitely not going to work as I need to get the conrod assembly fixed firmly. I would hate to have it move and break a drill halfway through the drilling process.

 

While I thought about it I decided to machine the smaller big end pin machined to the correct length.

 

 

These 5C collets do certainly make life easier - THANKS JOE for the suggestion.

 

 

That's better - the pin fits flush with both ends.

 

 

To clear the elongated hole, where the locating pin had moved, I kept putting drills through the hole at 0.1mm larger each time until I could get a 3.5mm diameter drill through both holes. I need to set the conrod up on the milling table so that the drill will be vertical in the hole.

 

 

I had some small diameter drill rod (silver steel to the Brit's) that was a fraction larger than 3.5mm. This is where the collets came into use again, centre drilling the end so I could hold the end with a rotating centre, while I turned some of the rod down to 3.5mm to fit in the hole on the conrod. I am going to use this thin rod as an indicator to help get the holes vertical.

 

 

It fits in the hole. I should not have let go of the conrod assembly to take the photo. Where is the beautiful assistant when you need her!

[Roger Zimmermann]

No broken drill? I'm sure you had no idea some months ago how deep you had to go with hat engine!

[Mike Macartney]

21 hours ago, Roger Zimmermann said:

No broken drill?

 

Not yet Roger!

[chistech]

Nice work Mike! Sorry, no joke for you today. Well, at least no jokes I can post. Some day if I ever get over the pond, we’ll sit down, have a drink (my wife too, she’s a professional), and I’ll tell you a bunch of our crazy yankee jokes! Michelle is always up for a little traveling to see the world.

 

I should also mention I haven’t even had a chance to get over to Joe’s place that’s only about 40minutes away! We need to talk some muzzle loader along with his incredible work on his Mitchell.

Edited November 10, 2019 by chistech (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

22 hours ago, chistech said:

Well, at least no jokes I can post.

 

I think it must be very difficult being a comedian on stage these days. The 'political correctness' that there is today has made all the jokes that I seem to remember, from the days of old, unrepeatable!

 

I have been doing a bit more to the conrod over the weekend and this morning.

 

 

When I rotated my indicator rod in the existing locating pin holes, in conrod small big end, it moved from side to side. It must have bent a bit in the lathe, when I let go of it, to take the photo in my last post - oh blast!

 

 

I sketched out the approximate size, in my notebook, that my jig needed to be, for holding the conrod ridgid on the milling table.

 

 

Machined up some brackets to hold the big end.

 

 

Maybe something like this will work? Perhaps I should have drawn something up first, rather than making it up as I went along!

 

 

I tacked the two bits of 2" x 1" box at right angles. I am amazed how quickly I can make a mess!

 

 

I clamped these two bits of scrap metal together to make the brackets for holding the small end of the main conrod.

 

 

Then milled them to the same size.

 

 

Machined up a spacer for the larger bearing of the conrod so I could use a bolt to mount the brackets.

 

The site won't let me load any more photos on this post - I'll be back in a moment!

[Mike Macartney]

Back again with some more on making the jig for repairing the conrod.

 

 

Perhaps something like this will do.

 

 

Well, at least the box sections seem to be at right angles to each other!

 

 

Thinks?!? - What about making the box section bolt to the milling table and make the bracket for the small end to also bolt to the mill table and not to the box section. I can then slide the small end bracket along to get the angle correct for the two existing holes in the larger big end to be in line for drilling out for the spiral pin. When the holes are in line vertically I can clamp down the bracket on the small end.

 

This time I have run out of photos - I got carried away and forget to download them to my laptop! Back soon.

[chistech]

It’s a shame these days mike how everyone is offended. I’m of Portuguese, Italian, and Irish decent and all my siblings are walking joke encyclopedias with no nationality being omitted. We weren’t raised with any prejudice, only a ton of laughter. None of us are offended if one of our siblings or friends “bust” us and give us a hard time as it’s all in fun. It a shame the world is no longer that way.

 

Now, back to the Humbrette, great work, and every day I go looking through the restoration threads for specific ones including yours. I need my everyday “fix”, thanks!

[Mike Macartney]

21 minutes ago, chistech said:

We weren’t raised with any prejudice, only a ton of laughter. None of us are offended if one of our siblings or friends “bust” us and give us a hard time as it’s all in fun. It a shame the world is no longer that way.

 

I blame Facebook and the like. It has given, small groups of people, a very loud voice?

 

25 minutes ago, chistech said:

I need my everyday “fix”, thanks!

 

Every morning I look forward to reading and seeing what others have been doing with their restoration work. I am especially missing your offerings now that you have finished the Oldsmobile. I thank YOU for your contribution to my learning. I am looking forward to your next project.

[Mike Macartney]

I have now downloaded the photos and can continue with my posting.

 

 

Machined up a base for the bracket for the small end of the conrod. This will weld to the two side plates and clamp that 'small end' of the conrod to the milling table. I slotted the hole so the bracket would line up, even if it did not line up with the T-slot in the milling table. Unfortunately, the only suitable bit of scrap I had for the bracket was galvanised. I ground off the galvanising where I needed to weld the side plates on to the base. I hope I ground off enough not to get 'metal fume fever' after the welding.

 

 

Before welding the clamp for the small end of the conrod I thought I had better check it. I am pleased I did, 'Sods Law' was correct! The brackets for the big end, I had bolted on the wrong way round, the corners did not clear the pin. The other problem was that my yellow press, on the left of the photo, was in the way of table moving across far enough for the quill to line up with the holes. I undid the clamping bolts and slid the whole jig to the left. I hope the mill table will go low enough to drill the hole for the spiral pin?

 

 

It did.

 

 

I slid the pin back to check that the 3.5mm diameter drill would go through both holes cleanly. I then tightened up all the clamping bolts and was pleased how ridgid the holding jig was.

 

 

I pushed the pin into position clamped the pin in place with welding clamps, to stop it moving, and drilled the hole through the pin for fitting the spiral pin.

 

 

Tapped the pin gently, to get it started. Sorry about the blurred photo. I did check the size of hole that I needed for the spiral pin, to be a tight 'push fit', on a bit of scrap bar. And Yes Roger, I did manage to break a drill when I was practising drilling the correct size hole!  I did not want to break a drill in the actual pin. I will fit another pin in the other side, but that's enough stress for today!