Hubert_25-25 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) My 1925 Buick Standard water pump shaft needs to be replaced, and my impellor is borderline acceptable, but could use to be replaced as well. I have drawn both of these for fabrication. Along the picture of the shaft 1) I have included the ID dimensions of the existing bushings. Do these look acceptable or "pretty sloppy" and need to be replaced. 2) I have included the ID dimensions of the gear and the Starter Generator drive hub. They were very difficult to remove. Any thoughts on the interference fit? 3) I was unsure of the stainless grade to specify 4) I was unsure of the finish to specify (smooth is such a relative term) 5) notice the minor shaft size difference between the impellor area and the SG drive hub ID. I don't know if water caused the shaft to swell under the impellor?? On the impellor, there is a cut section in the bore. Not sure if this is necessary and needs to be duplicated. I see no purpose for it. Note that I will edit these drawings here with suggestions after this posting so as not to have multiple drawings with varying information. Thank you Hugh Edited February 18, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) Where things are pinned onto the shaft, were the holes drilled through the centre of the shaft? They don't need to be so the factory may have just drilled a hole near the shaft diameter after fitting the impeller (etc.) to put the pin in. I used silver steel for my shaft. I think you call it tool steel in the USA. I polished it with 180 carborundum strip held on a file with the shaft in the lathe. Bush fits should be about 0.001 or 0.002" clearance? How do you set the longitudinal position and end float of the shaft in the pump? My Dodge Brothers pump has a carbon or similar washer between the impeller and the pump body (and end of the bush). Steel may "swell" when it rusts because you are adding molecules (oxygen). The shaft is badly rusted, probably because it sat for a long time, with no corrosion protection in the coolant and the bronze bushes against the shaft with the lubricant having dried up - galvanic corrosion between the shaft and the bushes and between the shaft and the impeller. Here is a document showing machining surface finish symbols. https://user.engineering.uiowa.edu/~mie032/Lectures/17-Surface_Roughness_and_Machining_Symbols_full.pdf What do you mean by a smooth step? Also, where will that 0.002" step-down shoulder be and will it interfere with any end float or other adjustments? Edited February 7, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 (edited) Regarding the shaft step on the long section of the shaft at 4" from the left. In the big book of parts, they list 2 dimensions only for this water pump shaft for a 1925 Buick Standard. The total length of 17 5/16, and then another dimension at 10 31/32". To convert this to my drawing, this puts that mark at 6 11/32 from the left end of the shaft. This puts the dimension line just inside the base of the impellor by 5/32". So I think this allowed you to do an interference fit on the impellor without having to push the impellor down 6" of shaft. The Starter generator hub is on the left end, and it has a smaller ID than the impellor. This also means that the water pump housing bushings would be slightly smaller ID on the left housing vs the right housing. I need to update my drawing already. Shaft corrosion makes it difficult to get the as built dimensions. Edited February 7, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 just heating up the brass impeller with a flame will let it fall off the shaft as long as you heat the out side edges of the impeller for a wile . ,750 will turn in to .754 at 250 deg. on the edges. --kyle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26-25Buick Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Hugh, if you want to make it out of stainless you probably want something like SS316L. The L on the end is the important part as it designates it as the low carbon grade of SS316 which makes it suitable for machining. The 316L still has good corrosion and pitting resistance that some of the other free matching grades of SS don’t and plus it should be readily available in bar stock. I would not recommend using 304 or 303 as these materials, while common and cheaper, are more likely to crack in the presence of chlorides that might be in your water and are more susceptible to pitting corrosion than 316. While 304/303 have many other uses a shaft for a water pump probably isn’t a good use for this metallurgy. Having said this I’m not a proponent for the stainless shaft of any grade in this application and I’d rather use carbon steel although you’ll probably find plently of people out there who have converted the shafts to the harder SS materials without an issue. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Hugh, there is a whole host of stainless grades to choose from. When I had the water pump shaft remade for my '16 the guy that I had do it for me asked if I wanted long wear characteristics or high corrosion resistance. I opted for the corrosion resistant material. My shaft was straight the entire length and that simplified things. I could have made the shaft myself, but the fellow who ended up doing it for me had access to a centerless grinder. He left .010" on the O.D. and took it to size with the grinding operation. If you plan to put 30 to 35 thousand miles a year on this car when you are finished with it then you might want to consider the wear factor. In my humble opinion, to replace one of these water pump shafts with anything other than stainless is a waste of time, material, and money. Also, when this engine of mine goes back together it will have nothing but Zerex Original Formula 50/50 Pre-Mix Anti-Freeze in its cooling system. The cylinder block will have been thermally cleaned also. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26-25Buick Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Terry brings up a good point here, how does the addition of an anti-freeze play in to this equation? It’s not all good news on the chloride stress corrosion cracking front as I’m afraid a quick look at the safety datasheet for this product actually shows you’re adding chlorides with your antifreeze to about the same tune as typical domestic tap water. http://www.luisa.com.gt/sites/default/files/zerex_original_green.pdf Not to put you all to sleep with the science, the problem isn’t where the corrosion inhibitors and chlorides stay in solution but where the coolant can evaporate and leave the chlorides behind to accumulate on the shaft, for example in the pump gland packing nut after that fun day out. By the way there is no way of predicting when and if these materials will crack in service hence why they only talk in terms of susceptibility and some grades of stainless are more susceptible than others. The literature (API for example) will tell you that running an austenitic stainless steel in a pH of 10 or less, in a temperature greater than 140F (60C) and more than about 10ppm of chlorides you have a high susceptibility of creating cracks. By the way if there is any iron in the solution say from a little corrosion somewhere and it also contaminates the surface of the stainless shaft that just makes it worse. These conditions are exactly what you could have in the water pump hence my warning about stainless. I guess the message I’m trying to get across with my post is if you do go down the road of swapping to a stainless steel shaft ask plenty of questions of the person supplying you the shaft material as like carbon steels not all machinable stainless steels are created equal or suitable for this service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I mean no disrespect to anyone here, but, the material that is available today is light years ahead of anything that was produced back in the teens and twenties of the last century. Scientific overkill will stop anyone from doing anything if they dwell on it long enough. The shaft for my '16 has a 4RMS finish (almost the same as a glass mirror) so I am not the least bit concerned about wear on the surface from the packing material. I am even less concerned about the Zerex anti-freeze solution doing anything to the stainless material. If I lived a hundred lifetimes there will be no problems ever with the stainless material in the shaft. I feel very confident that the folks at Zerex have their chemistry in order - they have to or the product liability lawyers would put them out of business. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I bought my '18 E-45 51 years ago in 1967. The water pump shaft was a mess and chewed up packing like heck. I made a new pump shaft out of stainless (too long ago to remember the alloy) and I run antifreeze in it. It is still leak free after all these years. I'm not going to worry about the next 50 years 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Going through my parts, I found this today. Let me know if anyone needs it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 Mark, Do you have any distinguishable part numbers or know what this comes off of? It looks like mine, only no water pump in the middle. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Holmberg Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) The brass nut on Marks axle more looks like 1924 and earlier.Hugh,check out how your nuts look! This`s my 1925-25 Leif in Sweden. Edited February 10, 2018 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I believe it is from a spare 1924 Buick Master series engine. No numbers on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 Mark, I would be interested in it, especially if the gear is good. Mine is 1 1/8 wide x 2 1/4 OD and 18 teeth. The Gears are shown as sets in the parts books, so I don't know if this would match mine or not. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Hugh, This one has the same measurements, but has 20 teeth on the gear. I removed the tapered pin and tried to press out the shaft, but it is really stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 (edited) Mark, Sounds like a Master part as you said. Measure any Standard part and add 1/32" or take a gear and add 2 teeth, and you have a Master part. It won't do me any good. Thanks for working on it. Hugh Edited February 11, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 1925 Master roadster pump shaft drawing and impeller to compare the 2 of them side by side Edited February 17, 2018 by sligermachine new pic. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 On 2/7/2018 at 10:05 AM, Hubert_25-25 said: have included the ID dimensions of the gear and the Starter Generator drive hub. They were very difficult to remove. Any thoughts on the interference fit? just warm them up and a press fit will slide right on keep the shaft in the freezer and keep the O.D. parts in the oven set to 250 and easier to press by hand to fit . just move fast you will have 1 or 2 seconds to get the alignment right before they lock up tight!! --kyle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 8:35 AM, Hubert_25-25 said: I would be interested in it, especially if the gear is good. Mine is 1 1/8 wide x 2 1/4 OD and 18 teeth. The Gears are shown as sets in the parts books, so I don't know if this would match mine or not. Hugh what is the big gear # of teeth and dia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1925 master roadster pump drive shaft as.per used good parts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 8:35 AM, Hubert_25-25 said: I would be interested in it, especially if the gear is good. Mine is 1 1/8 wide x 2 1/4 OD and 18 teeth. The Gears are shown as sets in the parts books, so I don't know if this would match mine or not. Hugh You have one good gear on the top shaft looks like ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Kyle, Thanks for the additional dimensions on the Master water pump parts. This is the best of my 2 water pump gears. I believe the other gear that I have is too worn to really use. I put this one thru a vinegar bath, and then an evaporust bath. Then I cleaned it up with a razor blade. This runs against the fiber timing gear so I wanted to make sure that the tooth surface was smooth. I think it is acceptable to use, but I am looking for a better one. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The flanks of theose teeth are pretty rough. I'd expect it would tear up the teeth on the fiber gear. I'd look for a better one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I could polish the one side up with 1200 grit lapping . Or just make you a new one from tool steel -kyle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Here is a photo of the water pump assembly for my '16 D-45. The impeller came from Dean Tryon. The brass packing nuts have since been polished out. Something that I can laugh about now is that two of these nuts have left-hand internal threads. I ended up making four of those buggers to end up with two good ones. Left hand just ain't normal. Terry Wiegand Doo Dah America 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Hubert_25-25 I looked in a at least 150 cans today I found half of what you need 54 tooth fiber gear cool I have never looked in all the Coffey cans till today . the guy that worked on my car saved every old part ,old bearing , bushing ,old valve guides , and labeled every part and stated installed new one as I looked in all the cans wow . Edited February 19, 2018 by sligermachine spelling . (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 Kyle, I am interested in the Fiber gear. It will make a good spare. Hugh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Don, I have a new gear coming. Leif, Thanks for the added year information to help with the search. Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Hue do u have a old one . does anyone have a drawing of the steel gear and or the fiber gear ?? I would like to draw it and maybe make a few for spares for some one some day --kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 This gear says it all -- kyle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Kyle, - I can send you a file that Leif sent me regarding the timing gear dimensions, but it is not a single drawing, rather several photos with dimensions shown on them. - You have a 54 and a 60 tooth timing gear in your hands, and they are the 2 sizes for 1925-28 Master and Standard. - I can send you an 18 tooth water pump/generator gear, but I am finding that they are not as rare as the fiber gears. - Bobs sells a fiber gear, but it does not have a steel hub like is used originally. The Standard gear has no steel hub, just a key slot. The Master hub has a separate steel piece with a keyslot but no attachment mechanism for the steel hub piece. I wonder how good these are being fiber with just a keyway in it? Does anyone have any experience with them? Buick did not build them this way. - Bob's shows the early 6 cylinder and 1925 -1928 Master gears as "out of stock". Not sure when or if he plans to make more. - I understand that the fiber gear is for noise purposes, and the other option is Bronze. Hugh Edited February 20, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 A old no good gear is a easy way to test a milling machine set up . but normally runes a gear during the set up . a gear shaped like this I would normally rune at least 6 or 8 gears before it turned out right . A cnc looped program making gears is a fast way to make a gear but expensive to set up . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Kyle, You always have such good insight into what a machinist needs. I have at least 1 junk 54 tooth gear. This is the one that was in my motor. Someone damaged it, I can only assume in the process of removing the water pump. A good gear other than the section of broken teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 At an auction that a 1924-45 was NOT sold (I was the only bidder at $21,000) there was a timing gear made from aluminum. It was my friend here in Chambersburg with a project 1924-45 who bought it. He also bought a trailer load of spare parts as well as a complete engine with radiator on a stand. I remember pointing out the gear and having him bid on it. The auctioneer stopped the auction to read us out for being in collusion on parts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 hours ago, dibarlaw said: The auctioneer stopped the auction to read us out for being in collusion on parts! You mean they Kicked you out ?? wow what a nice car!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 13 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said: section of broken teeth. well on the next box going or coming I would like to get that broke gear . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 I can send you my broken gear and one of the 18 tooth gears after I have some good gears to replace mine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybuick Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 8 hours ago, dibarlaw said: At an auction that a 1924-45 was NOT sold (I was the only bidder at $21,000) there was a timing gear made from aluminum. It was my friend here in Chambersburg with a project 1924-45 who bought it. He also bought a trailer load of spare parts as well as a complete engine with radiator on a stand. I remember pointing out the gear and having him bid on it. The auctioneer stopped the auction to read us out for being in collusion on parts! My understanding is that the 4 clynder engines had a aluminum gear fitted this is what I have on my car so you may be able to find one you will never break it tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 Tony, Thanks for the response and the good idea for a replacement gear. I once worked on a friends Mustang 2 and it had a metal timing gear hub with a nylon type material gear around the outside. The gear shattered into many pieces and we had to clean it all out of the oil pan. The replacement timing gear was aluminum. I never heard the car run previously, but it did have an interesting whir after it was back running. I always liked the sound of the blower on the Mad Max Holden model that Mel Gibson drives. I would think an aluminum gear is better than a fiber gear without a steel hub. Bronze is always nice but certainly a more expensive option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
27donb Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 In another water pump related question, for those with the long water pump shaft and 2 piece water pump housing (1925 and earlier). Between the 2 water pump housing sections...paper gasket? Silicone sealer? Paper gasket and silicone sealer? What should I use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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