Turn Signals/Additional Brake Light...

[philipj]

Hello there,

 

While I see that turn signals are a common addition to the prewar and postwar cars, in the case of a 37 Buick model 41, when this is normally done, do the turn signals work with the fender lamps and rear tail lamps or just the front?

For the second question, if you're replacing the entire vehicle wiring harness with a custom one, is it possible to use a double filament socket in place of the single center plate light/red marker, and use it as a third brake light? Thank you.

[DonMicheletti]

I bought my '38 wiring from Rhode Island Wire and I had them add additional wiring for the turn signals. It was no problem at all for them - very accomodating. I had them make other changes too, like connecting the dash lights to the headlight switch so they only came on when the rear tail lights are on. Originally the dash lights have to be turned on separately and it is VERY easy to forget to turn them off and run the battery down

I used the fender lights for the front and the brake lights for the rear. They were wired like a more modern car where the brake and turn signal filaments were the same on the rear.

I modified the lamp socket up front to take a double fillament light bulb - an easy modification

[philipj]

I just spoke to them... It is possible to do almost anything... I would want to have turn signals front (fender lights) and rear plus an additional brake light on the plate light... I am also considering running the harness along the bottom (since the car I'm considering has a good headliner) just not sure how much more (or less) is required to go that route.. If anything the dome light wire would have to be longer.

[philipj]

I have also found other places that do wiring harnesses... Narragansett Reproductions (RI) Harnesses Unlimited (PA) and YNZ Yesterdays Parts (CA) But apparently Rhode Island Wiring (RI) is the best place to go.. Anyone has experience with the other companies? Thank you.

[39BuickEight]

My parts car had a harness from Harnesses Unlimited in it.  The previous owner had a weird ignition and some non-factory lighting changes made.  I was trying to use it in my car and couldn't sort out what they had done with the ignition.  I called them and they figures it out for me in less than 5 minutes after I told them what my car was.  I wasn't even a customer of theirs-the previous owner was.  I just happened to have the receipt so I knew who to call.

[DonMicheletti]

For the switchs on my '38 Buicks , I used  vintage AutoLamp 9000 switch. I painted the housing the came color as the steering column. It looks like it belongs on the car.

I like this switch because it has a self cancelling feature that most others do not. A rubber wheel that rubs on the steering wheel hub. It worls perfectly.

It does not have a hazard light feature though.

There is one on E Bay now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/50s-60s-Vintage-Auto-Lamp-9000-Turn-Signal-Switch-Hot-Rod-Dodge-Chevy-Ford/152698664852?hash=item238d8cb794:g:myEAAOSwLGtZtWgy&vxp=mtr

 

I have a wiring diagram for the switch if one isnt included.

[BuicksBuicks]

In my 37-48 I ran extra wires to the front fender lights and tail lights. For the front lights I installed amber LED's and for the tail lights, added sockets and incandescent bulbs.

 

When I took my first 37 Special for NJ state inspection in 1963 I was asked to show left and right signals. I did, and with hand signals. The inspector didn't appreciate the hand signals and proceeded to yell at me, "don't be a smart ass!".

[philipj]

Thank you for the tip... I like to idea of being able to blend it in with the rest of the car... Do you know if it can be used with an 8 wire system harness? As explained by Rhode Island wiring, if you want to use your fender lamps and tail lamps with a custom harness...

[Dave39MD]

I have bought 3 harness from Y n Z and they have been excellent. They cheerfully answer any questions you may have but the instructions and wire markings make it so you do not need to ask many.

 

Dave

[MCHinson]

1 hour ago, DonMicheletti said:

For the switchs on my '38 Buicks , I used  vintage AutoLamp 9000 switch. I painted the housing the came color as the steering column. It looks like it belongs on the car.

I like this switch because it has a self cancelling feature that most others do not. A rubber wheel that rubs on the steering wheel hub. It worls perfectly.

It does not have a hazard light feature though.

There is one on E Bay now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/50s-60s-Vintage-Auto-Lamp-9000-Turn-Signal-Switch-Hot-Rod-Dodge-Chevy-Ford/152698664852?hash=item238d8cb794:g:myEAAOSwLGtZtWgy&vxp=mtr

 

I have a wiring diagram for the switch if one isnt included.

 

Thanks for posting that. I have one of those same switches on my 1937 Century. I had no idea what the part number or manufacturer was. I see there are more than one on Ebay. I am waiting for the new wiring harness for my 1938 Project. I was going to go with a switch supplied by my harness manufacturer, now I guess I need to think about that decision. I sort of think that the self cancelling feature is neat enough to justify buying another identical switch. I do sometimes have a problem with accidentally cancelling the turn signal before I want to with just a minor bump of the steering wheel while waiting at a red light. 

[Guest]

BuicksBuicks If you are over 80 in BC and have to take the road test it requires you to use hand signals at least once during the test.

[mcdarrunt]

Since not a single state I know of requires parking lights I just replace the bulb with a very bright LED one and added a second socket in the tail lights (it is close fit) for an LED there. I then use two tiny micro-switches from Radio Shack to activate a Kawasaki motorcycle electronic self cancelling t/s switch. A quick push gives seven flashes, a less quick one gives 22 flashes, and push and hold both for three seconds give four way flashers till a second push cancels. Tiny switches can be mounted anywhere or put on a stem on the column. Car is a 1937 Buick Special.

[cxgvd]

Gee, my '39 had turn signals from the factory, rear only.  My '13 has hand signals.  Since I am driving from the right side of the car my turn signal require me to say to the passenger to give me a left or a right , He or she complies.  Self cancelling and I feel safe, without mishap so far

 

Thanks for the tip concerning wire harnesses.   Regards, Gary

[retiredmechanic74]

50 minutes ago, cxgvd said:

Gee, my '39 had turn signals from the factory, rear only.  My '13 has hand signals.  Since I am driving from the right side of the car my turn signal require me to say to the passenger to give me a left or a right , He or she complies.  Self cancelling and I feel safe, without mishap so far

 

Thanks for the tip concerning wire harnesses.   Regards, Gary

With the hand signals the silver lining is....at least your not driving mile after mile with your signal flashing. Unless of course you have your arm out the window moving it up and down feeling the air rushing by.

[Jack Worstell]

On our 1937 Special we removed the single contact socket for the plate light and installed a double contact socket    and used a 1154   6v bulb.  One contact for plate light and one contact for brake light.       We tapped into the brake light wire near the driver's side rear brake light/taillight fixture to run a brake light feed to the 1154

 

We couldn't use a regular 1154...not enough room.  But luckily you can get a 1154 made with a small glass envelope and these will fit.

 

Jack Worstell

[DonMicheletti]

With the skills and mentality of most modern drivers, if you gave hand signals they might think you are flipping them off ... provided they are not texting!

 

The thing I like about the old AutoLamp switch is that it LOOKS OLD. Especially when painted the same color as the steering column

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

We drive our 38 a few times a week. We also drive lots at night. Hand signals are almost useless at night. If someone is close behind me at night or in the day I use the hand signals early, if they slow down I know they see me, if not I slow way down until they know something is going on and are paying attention before I make a turn. If they never seem to get it I will even skip making the turn altogether and turn at a light or some better spot. We have no turn signals and todays drivers might not even know what hand signals are. I ride motorcycles and drove semi trucks locally for over 50 years with no accidents but I had to be aware all the time of other drivers as many don't pay any attention. I think turn signals are a great upgrade but I won't do it since to do it in a way that pleases me requires it be in the loom. Our car came with new wire loom from YNZ but unfortunately turn signal wires were not added at the time. Another accessory that we added is a side view mirror, using the mirror is as important as looking out the front window in my opinion.

 

[DonMicheletti]

I also added a right hand door rear view mirror on the Special.  Nice in todays traffic and it doesnt hurt the car.

[philipj]

While giving this more thought, I think I may have found that my car is prewired for turn signals, the challenge is to identify the harness supplier, obtain a wiring diagram corresponding to that; as well as the necessary parts...

Maybe someone here can recognize the color code for the turn signals of a particular supplier... The front left has a green and black stripe and the front right a red and black stripe along with a second black wire on each side up front. Under the dash, the same two (red and black striped) are not connected. The third and fourth photos are the left rear, but only found a single wire.. No black wires under the dash or the rear left.

I will check the rear right tomorrow.

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by philipj (see edit history)

[RiKi5156B]

After spending hours on this issue for my 40 Special,trying to make my rear fender mounted lights  flash along with the trunk mounted turn signals and spending a long time going over the wiring diagrams for 40 and 55 I found that the steering column for later year cars that have combo brake/turn signal in one bulb have an extra circuit to run the signals through the brake light switch. So for the rear lights it’s not doable with the original column. Fender mounted fronts on mine I used a socket for 1157 bulb and ran the park side back to the headlight switch. 

[Dave39MD]

I don't recognize the wire color but Y n Z does use the little white tags with numbers. They correspond to their instruction sheet. It is possible other wire harness suppliers do as well but I have only used Y N Z. You might call them and  ask for a copy of the instructions.  They have helped me in the past with a similar situation.

 

Dave

[Bloo]

This subject is naturally muddy, but basically there are 2 kinds of signal light wiring. I am going to call them "type a" and "type b"

 

"Type a" uses a separate filament, actually a whole separate bulb for the rear signal lights. This type includes most Japanese cars at least through the 80s, also "truck" signal conversion kits in the USA from the 30s onward that came with 4 signal light housings that you would mount yourself. It also includes the earliest Buick factory turn signals, as they were not even located physically close to the tail/stop lights, and so they had to be a separate bulb.

 

"Type b" uses the same bulb filaments for the brake and signal lights at the rear of the car. This includes nearly all American cars with factory signal lights through the 80s at least an probably quite a bit beyond. There are exceptions, but few. It is also popular for conversions today, because most people wont want to add another light housing, and the existing one is probably already full of bulb(s).

 

"Type a" is easy for wiring. The switch is just a SIngle Pole Double Throw (SPDT) switch. Fused (we hope) 6V (or 12V) is connected to the battery terminal of the flasher. Current flows out another flasher terminal to the signal light (DPDT) switch. From there it is switched to either the right or left side. The left front and left rear are usually wired together. The right front and right rear are wired together. Note this detail, because wiring the front and back together wont work on "type b". If there are 2 dash indicators, they are also wired into their respective sides. If there is a single dash indicator, it is wired to the third terminal of the flasher.

 

"Type b" is different and needs more contacts in the switch. The front works just like "type a" described above. If there are 2 dash indicators they are wired to the front signals. If there is a single dash indicator, it is wired to the third flasher terminal just like "type a". The back is where it gets weird. In the rear, Fused (maybe) 6V (or12V) runs to the brake light switch. From the brake light switch it runs to the extra switch contacts in the turn signal switch, and then on to the rear signal/brake bulbs. Each rear signal/brake bulb has it's own switch contact and it's own wire.

 

In "type b" systems, when you turn a signal on, the front bulb gets connected to the flasher. At the rear, contacts in the signal switch disconnect a bulb from the brake light switch, and then connect it to the flashing side.

 

I hope this is enough information to figure out what kind of wiring you have. Good luck.

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[philipj]

Are the various switches we're discussing utilize a 7 wire system or 8 wire turn signal switch? What is the advantage? A hazard switch with the 8 wire system? Trying to figure out what is already pre-wired in my vehicle, but I am told I cannot get just any switch... I am calling Harnesses Unlimited tomorrow (with any luck it is their harness) as well as Rhode Island Wiring again. I am utilizing a single double filament bulb for this, therefore it is a B system.. Does a B system utilize a 7 or 8 wire turn signal switch? There are only 2 wires on the brake light switch though...

Edited March 23, 2018 by philipj (see edit history)

[Bloo]

4 wire (a) and 7 wire (b) I think.

 

The main thing to think about is how the system works, because there were variations.....

 

For instance, I think what I am calling a "type a" is the one people often call a 4 wire. One wire in, two wires out, and a fourth wire for an indicator bulb I guess? Four wires just isn't enough wires to do the brake light switching trick. Without an indicator bulb, or with 2 turn signal indicator bulbs would be 3 wire I guess?

 

There is also some brand of switch out there that has 2 bulbs in it, but they don't do what you think. They light when a bulb on the outside of the car is burned out! This switch does not do the brake light switching trick, I don't know how many wires it has.

 

Now a "type b".... would have the 3 wires like the "type a" switch to make the front signals work. Plus 2 more wires to go to the rear bulbs. Plus one wire to feed current from the brake light switch. Thats 6. If it has a single indicator light, add one more, so 7 total.

 

I don't know what an eighth wire might be for. You might be on to something with the 4-ways. The old switches didn't have that. There are so many variations on 4-way circuits I don't even know where to begin. It should be possible to have 4-ways without any additional parts except a bunch of extra contacts in the switch, I think.

 

How is this for a wild theory: Maybe the eighth wire is always-on battery voltage. If you had 4-ways you would want them to work with the ignition off. The signals might only work with the ignition on.

[philipj]

I have contacted Rhode Island Wiring, Narraganset Reproductions, YnZ Yesterdays Parts and Harnesses Unlimited... I finally was able to speak to Paul, (super nice guy) from Harnesses Unlimited.. It appears to be their harness, but they have no customer information since it is too old; from the late 90's... In short, he will be sending a wiring diagram for a 6 wire switch that will work with the existing tail lamps without modification. The only modification required will be up front,  to change the sockets in the parking lights to a accommodate a double filament bulb. He sure made it sound very easy... Cannot wait to see the wiring diagram! 

Edited March 23, 2018 by philipj (see edit history)

[philipj]

Got a generic diagram, but I must say it is as clear as mud... I was also told I cannot use the Autolamp 9000 (3 wire set up) turn signal switch, so I think I will use the Signal-Stat 900  (7 wire set up) switch from Rhode Island Wiring which hopefully will have a wiring diagram for dummies!

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by philipj (see edit history)