Hubert_25-25

Correct mid 20's Buick rear window detail

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I am wanting to determine the correct rear window size for the 1925 Standard rear window used on the touring cars.   I have the following information, and I also think the judging manual is incorrect, so I would like a little data to be able to ask about correcting the judging manual.  

 

For a 1925 Standard, I have 

BCA judging manual lists no dimensions, and the drawing is incorrect.  I believe this should be a D shaped window.  

Larry DiBarry's drawing 25 x 6 3/4, looks correct and very close to the 1925 Master size.    

Leif 22 3/4 x 6 3/4, May be narrower size since he has a Burbank top? 

 

And I have a D shaped Johnston window that is a casting of an original that is 26 1/2 x 7 1/4.  I would think the D shaped windows are Buick, but I am not sure what this should really go on.  

Attached is the page from the judging manual, and a drawing from Larry on one of the D shaped Johnston window.

Any information is appreciated.  Thank you  Hugh 

 59f8ee79a999f_BCAjudgingbackwindow..thumb.JPG.3e176e53bb1d638178cc990b0b66234c.JPG118625520_BuickWindow1925and1926Model44and45.thumb.JPG.e626ef314124258d28f0ef72e3d306a9.JPG

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

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All I can add is my opinion.   I have seen D shaped windows in pictures of Buicks in the 20's, my '27 54CC originally had one.   In the black and white picture you can see it,  even through the front window.   That picture is from 1956.

 

The outer frame was toast, because it was pot metal.   It has an inner wood frame.   It had beveled plate glass, all of which was heavy and stretched the rear window flap.

 

At the time the cost to reproduce a one off frame exceeded my resources, and it was suggested I choose a common replacement available from a catalog, which I did.  It is close to the original size, but not a D.   Buick experts would know, most observers do not.   It is a flat profile stainless that looks pretty. 

 

My 27-25 should have a D in my opinion, but instead has what I believe to be a replacement also, but it is closer to original as the profile is half round, possibly because the car was cosmetically redone in 1970 and that frame was available.  It looks good. 

 

My 24-45 has a flat frame stainless replacement, that to me is obviously too square.    The picture of the 24-45 when it was blue shows the window it used to have, that may have been original.  My plan is too replace it with a more rectangular flat frame when time and money allows. 

 

If I had the means and money, I would want the D window.  I don't know if, like so many parts, the window size varied between Standard and Master. 

 

 

54CC 1956 3.jpg

052509 Buick after new top (777).jpg

092912 buick cernak show (4322).jpg

1924 buick old pictures (300).jpg

041616 24 buick repositioning (39).JPG

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Here is the one from my friends original 1927-54. Note the heavy beveled glass. Also note the Hidem at the rear bow has an aluminum insert. Probably only for the Sport Touring, Roadsters and Convertible Coupes.DSCF6031.thumb.JPG.cd3fc6b00adc691d9b4a695feb1e00e2.JPGDSCF6034.thumb.JPG.34c701be31ab28a3f14ece55cd336124.JPG

 Also a photo of the 1925-25X "Around The World Buick" at Horseshoe Curve Altoona PA.

 It shows the shape of the rear window.5a046b7f28433_192520Buick20at20Horseshoe20Curve20ca.201920s201024x1.thumb.jpg.ff8f7101b99b27d0a4cbe81e2ed5dcfa.jpg

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Measured my original broken rear window frame ,was on my Burbank top, and it was between 22 3/4"- 23"x 6 3/4" . Johnstone Patended

Leif in Sweden.

IMG_2279.JPG

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Here is the 1928 Standard Roadster restored by Gerald Petersen and was at the 2014 Buick Nationals at Portland.

IMAG0060.thumb.jpg.ffb85b27339c8419bc84501293d671dd.jpgIMAG0061.thumb.jpg.a5f2db788b06d2bf60f0ee139dcae075.jpgIMAG0063.thumb.jpg.e06303ab7cd8092ac16f717a3a291d75.jpg

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28 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

Here is the 1928 Standard Roadster restored by Gerald Petersen and was at the 2014 Buick Nationals at Portland.

IMAG0060.thumb.jpg.ffb85b27339c8419bc84501293d671dd.jpgIMAG0061.thumb.jpg.a5f2db788b06d2bf60f0ee139dcae075.jpgIMAG0063.thumb.jpg.e06303ab7cd8092ac16f717a3a291d75.jpg

 

Wow! 

 

How do I get one of those frames?

 

Beautiful! 

 

Any pictures of the window frame from the inside? 

Edited by 27donb (see edit history)

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Don:

 Gerald told me that was the frame that came with the car. It was not cracked or broken! He had it re-plated. He did not send any inside photos as I did not ask. This is what the car looked like from the front.

DSCF3237.thumb.JPG.bfef7d954ce041c2a6da5b5bea79af59.JPG 

Edited by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)
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I appreciate all of the photos.  From what I understand, when the tops got bad, the rear window frame was pretty rough too, and they all got thrown out and replaced at the same time.  The other item that I find of particular interest is how the inside of the top is trimmed using the wood window frame.  Its not like you just use the back side of the canvas as the inside of the top.  There is a lining material that is installed at the back of the interior.   So the window itself is installed "between" the 2 layers of materials.  The bottom photo from Leif shows how they did the inner liner in the touring cars, but perhaps the window should have been finished out like the photo above. 

5a05c5c8c9bf2_1927-54OriginalinsideLarry.JPG.2846da1bbb8d982d99255c46d98c7ccc.JPG

5a05c710c7cae_Buicksufflett006.thumb.jpg.b8f5b7e7a23266e379e470c54aaebeb5.jpg

  

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Hugh:

When these were replaced in the 30s the trimmers did not want to bother with the inner lining. Also the wooden frame tended to warp and rot once they got wet from leakage. My oval Johnston window in the top I have on Beulah still has the wood frame for it. You can see from the photo the stains from leaking.

5a05d4045c97c_1925BUICKREARSEATANDROOF.jpg.379eda07d2f70ac82e5202a541249624.jpg

Here are some photos of the frames. The 2 originals are the same size. One came out of the original Master top . One from a top Dave Blaufarb had for his 1928-25 and a copy I made out of poplar to match the metal frame remnants that I based my CAD drawing on.

DSCF5830.thumb.JPG.32abbabbdfcc856254a2e698edee3fbb.JPG

DSCF5831.thumb.JPG.e201a5b3a54e7778fba766f074dc3524.JPG

 

Edited by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)
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I don't see 1923 Model 45 listed on the chart.  Did I miss it?

 

Anyone know what is correct for same?

 

Thx!

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2 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

 

I appreciate all of the photos.  From what I understand, when the tops got bad, the rear window frame was pretty rough too, and they all got thrown out and replaced at the same time.  The other item that I find of particular interest is how the inside of the top is trimmed using the wood window frame.  Its not like you just use the back side of the canvas as the inside of the top.  There is a lining material that is installed at the back of the interior.   So the window itself is installed "between" the 2 layers of materials.  The bottom photo from Leif shows how they did the inner liner in the touring cars, but perhaps the window should have been finished out like the photo above. 

5a05c5c8c9bf2_1927-54OriginalinsideLarry.JPG.2846da1bbb8d982d99255c46d98c7ccc.JPG

5a05c710c7cae_Buicksufflett006.thumb.jpg.b8f5b7e7a23266e379e470c54aaebeb5.jpg

  

You are right Hugh,I`m to lazy to fix it,I have hade it so for nearly 50 year now!

Leif in Sweden.

Edited by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

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On 11/9/2017 at 5:16 PM, dibarlaw said:

Don:

 Gerald told me that was the frame that came with the car. It was not cracked or broken! He had it re-plated. He did not send any inside photos as I did not ask. This is what the car looked like from the front.

DSCF3237.thumb.JPG.bfef7d954ce041c2a6da5b5bea79af59.JPG 

 

A surviver window frame, how rare! 

 

I went through several cracked 1925 "dogbone" radiator caps before I found a survivor that I incorrectly use on my 27 Standard. 

 

But I think it's a beautiful cap. 

 

 

20171110_192854.jpg

Edited by 27donb (see edit history)

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That looks very close to the accessory cap for the 1925 Master Sport Tourings, Roadsters and Coupes. 5a0711e4e1a90_1925-55Front.thumb.jpg.ee66663fdf4c2c50ccc0a62c2f469974.jpg    5a07136e26d9c_1925-55Front-Copy.jpg.8df7b10178a4a9085a0815189ed62b5a.jpg

I saw one for sale at Hershey that I would have loved to have for my Master. Still it had a chunk missing at the base of the threaded section. The vendor had all these radiator ornaments in a foam fitted case. So I knew not to even ask a price. The 1927-1928 Godess caps that I have seen for over $400 were usually a crumbling mess. I would like to see these 1925 caps reproduced. I also think they are beautiful.  

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On 2017-11-11 at 1:30 AM, 27donb said:

 

A surviver window frame, how rare! 

 

I went through several cracked 1925 "dogbone" radiator caps before I found a survivor that I incorrectly use on my 27 Standard. 

 

But I think it's a beautiful cap. 

Those "dogbone"type  caps are in the 1925 and 1926 Master parts book,but with different parts number and with a little bit different scape on the ornamentering.In 1927 they are gone.

Leif in Sweden.

 

 

20171110_192854.jpg

 

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I started to put the pieces together to build a D shaped rear window frame.  I made a forming jig similar to what Leif made, only smaller.  Mine is aluminum and I will have to flip it over to do both sides of the window.  I also have stainless half round that I will need to heat in order to make the bends.  I hope it bends right and does not discolor the stainless.  I also hope that the heat will not effect the bending jig.  I guess I will know pretty soon.  Then I will need to find someone who can weld the 2 ends of the stainless and make it look seamless.  I need to weld on round threaded tubes for mounting as well.  I may even try acid etching the JohnsTon  logo if the bending and welding works.      Hugh

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Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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I may be Captain Obvious on this one, but I've installed numerous rear windows in rear curtains that have two fabric layers.  

 

The wood frame is supported with straps up to the rear bow, hidden by the two layers of material.  The curtain itself would have a hard time holding that weight.

 

Good luck with your installation....

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David, 

     That is a really good detail that you point out.  Adding straps as you suggest is a good idea.  The glass is heavy, and a stainless frame although more durable is heavier than aluminum.  Thank you.    Hugh

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I bought a nice frame at Hershey this Fall since the three small windows on my Buick are Model T frames 

 

The frame I bought is two piece screw together aluminum and has 4 small D rings and some remaining strap material on each of the 4

 

I’d post a pic but I left it in the trunk of my Summer car that is now in storage. 
 

My very knowledgeable friend Wayne Funk said you want one with the D rings otherwise the heavy window and frame put too much load on the canvas top.  Makes sense. 
 

Question is, who is doing tops for less than the price of a kidney?

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I don't charge a kidney, but to do a top correctly from scratch is easily 60 to 70 hours, plus $1000 or more in material. You can do the math at 50-60 an hour.

 

I'm not talking a hastily put on kit or rush job, but a quality job on a wood bow car, straight stitches and proper padding.

 

I usually spend 6 to 8 hours just making sure bows are square and aligned.

 

I'm sure there are people out there that do it for less.

 

Personally, I'm trying to quit!

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For the record, I’ve seen your work and it is first rate. 
 

What’s the old saying?  Cost is forgotten long after the quality remains or something like that. 
 

The best one I ever heard was about a guy who made his own top. Brave soul for sure, braver than me.  But I heard a guy comment about the crooked stitching. ‘Looks like a drunk’s tracks in the snow’.  I never forgot that saying. 

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I finally resolved the issues with the inaccuracies on page 26 of the Buick judging manual.  Now I need to go about having the changes made.  I am in the middle of making the rear D shaped window for my 1925 model 25.  1925 and 1926 models 24 and 25 share the same back window as verified by Leif and the original top and back window that I received from Brian Meek's 1925-24.  This cross reference matches the big book of parts.  The 1925 Master D shape window is slightly larger (like everything else on the Master).   Same height but 23" wide on the Standard and 25" wide on the Master.  There is also one other D shaped window that is larger still (26 1/2" x 7") for the more expensive cars.   Thanks for the help Leif Holmberg, Brian Meek, 27Don B,  and Larry DiBarry.       Hugh

1615519608_BackWindow1.thumb.JPG.f275dd6b2e011835563979f97490df28.JPG846697626_BackWindow2.thumb.JPG.942cee1d81fcf50fb52bae7567d15cfb.JPG497460004_BackWindow3.thumb.JPG.240cffea62188fd4a8e2f1ee60d7e07c.JPG238161296_BackWindow4.thumb.JPG.59c835ed1900d49ccaac265956f9637e.JPG

 

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On 11/10/2017 at 10:34 AM, Brian_Heil said:

I don't see 1923 Model 45 listed on the chart.  Did I miss it?

 

Anyone know what is correct for same?

 

Thx!

Brian, 

       I do not see the 1923 Model 45 listed at all either!  I do not have a copy of the 1923 6 cylinder book of parts.  If I was a betting man, I would say that the model 44 is the same as the model 45 for 1923.  Buick was using the same frame in each specific year for models 44 and 45, then another frame for models 24 and 25.   In your case I would suggest that it would be the rectangular window shown in the lower left on the BCA judging guide page 26.      Hugh

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

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I have the Illustrated Parts Catalog for the 1923 Fours and Sixes.  The tops for the Models 44 and 45 are shown with the rear windows.  I will photograph the two pages later today.  The book cannot be scanned and get all of the detail from each page.  I hope that this will help answer the questions raised.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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