American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[John_Mereness]

On 1/6/2023 at 8:50 AM, 8E45E said:

Do production orders/build sheets still exist for Springfield Rolls-Royces?   The R-R build sheet posted above only tells 'half the story' with the "American Body" comment in the approriate box.    It would be interesting to also see the body build sheet, and why its RHD if it was intended for final sale in the US.

 

Craig

To a large degree the build sheets exist for all RR cars.  For the Springfield cars, I believe I reached out to https://rollsroycefoundation.org/. There was also a Rolls Royce tracker guy and his collection of information is available at the same time (like many who follow Duesenbergs and other large and/or exotice marques) and those cards (perhaps something called like Wycoff cards or ....) tend to be ok, but not 100% as he relied often on an uninterested owner or hearsey information when a car was not in a large city (those cards caused a lot of confusion/error when "Rolls Royce in America" was written and as a result "now". 

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Ok Eddie, who was the CT repro builder?

🤫

[pbug56]

No.  The car's body get badly damaged from the Hurricane Agnes flood, my father was too busy, and eventually my parents sold the car.  As someone here figured out, it may be in New Hampshire now - hopefully being rebuilt.  The Victoria Town Cars are beautiful, and this one, even as messed up as it was 50 years ago, was still amazing to look at.

[John_Mereness]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:30 PM, edinmass said:

🤫

There has been more than one reproduction RR coachwork builder, though Enfield Restorations created many,

[alsancle]

Bonhams has a nice PI Regent for sale.  For some reason these convertible coupes do not bring big money.

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27987/lot/631/1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-regent-convertible-coupe-chassis-no-s107pr-engine-no-800285/

 

1931 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Regent Convertible Coupé
Coachwork by Brewster & Co.
Chassis no. S107PR
Engine no. 800285

• 1/21 Regent Convertible Coupe manufactured
• Desirable original bodywork
• Engine rebuilt in 2013
• Known history

Footnotes

In 1926 Rolls-Royce of America had acquired the prestigious coach builder Brewster & Company. Following this acquisition, Rolls-Royce of America offered 28 standardised body styles for Phantom I chassis. One of those configurations was an attractive two seater all-weather convertible coupé with dicky, a body style that would be named 'Regent'. Records show 21 Regents were built on the Phantom I chassis. Due to this relative rarity, and additionally as these cars show signs of the aerodynamic trends that were to follow later in the era, these cars are highly sought after by collectors. The front wings themselves now stretched forwards like blades, as on the famed Derby Speedsters, and the front dumb irons, springs and chassis were discreetly hidden behind valances. Completing the effect, at the front and rear were twin flat bars functioning as extremely stylish bumpers.

This Rolls-Royce Phantom I Springfield was bodied by Brewster & Co in 1931. It was at the Boston Motor Show of the same year that it was acquired new by Mr J Samuels. The latter was one of the most famous American antique and art dealers, counting among his clients such famous billionaires as Andrew Carnegie, William K Vanderbilt and the Rockefeller family. The Rolls-Royce was used by Mr Samuels to visit them, until 1939. 'S107PR' was then acquired by Mr Thomas Perry of Massachusetts, who was then president of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. With gasoline rationed during the Second World War, the Phantom was stored and ultimately little used in the immediate post-war period. In 1953, Mr Coburn Benson purchased the Phantom from Mr Perry and kept it until 2000 in its original state. Sold to an American collector, 'S107PR' was cosmetically and mechanically restored, winning first prize at the Greenwich Concours d'Elegance in 2002.
Brought to France and acquired by its current owner in 2004, the Phantom has been driven regularly on rallies and other gatherings, without neglecting its maintenance. The Rolls-Royce underwent a complete engine overhaul in 2013, including replacing its cylinder head, which had become porous over the years, with a new part re-manufactured in England. This work was carried out by the Ferry Développement and Sauzeau Automobiles workshops for a total of nearly €40,000. More recently, an overhaul of the running gear and a restoration of the spoked wheels was carried out.
With its clear history, its Special Brewster Blue colour contrasting with a polished aluminium bonnet, it is one of the 12 cars equipped with the chrome Buffalo wheels intended for shows and other exhibitions. Registered in France today, it is one of the most prestigious pre-war automobiles currently on sale.

[alsancle]

One of the Derby Speedsters is coming to market.  When Mr. Adderley bought this it was a world's record price.   Will be interesting to see how it does this time around.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am23/amelia-island/lots/r0055-1929-rolls-royce-phantom-i-derby-speedster-by-brewster/1327067

 

 

[58L-Y8]

We need the rear-three-quarters view too...

[edinmass]

The Derby is very, very nice. That said, it was well used when I saw it last. It will be interesting to see if it can sustain the market……or add to it. 

[prewarnut]

AJ and Ed (and others) on this "speedster" is the radiator slightly shorter similar to the Packard factory speedsters or is this just an illusion, or maybe just me? Or is it mounted slightly higher on the cross beam so it doesn't extend down as far?

[edinmass]

It’s the same on all the P one’s.

[SC38dls]

Not knowing anything about RR’s or really any car, how would a RR Phantom III 12 cylinder car in comparable condition stack up to any of the I or II is style and value? 
dave s 

Edited February 2, 2023 by SC38dls (see edit history)

[pbug56]

I'm no expert on the II or III.  The III with a 12 V is interesting though I've no idea how good an engine it was for the time or how well they've held up.  As to the P1, I'm only familiar with Springfield, not Derby.  And I don't know the specs.  I do know of 2 engine versions, the original iron head and the later aluminum head - the former has a much better chance, IMHO, of being intact.  We had 2 SP P1's, one of each type, and the iron head ran well, the other needed a complete engine rebuild.  I don't know max performance, but the iron head was particularly quiet and smooth.  If warm, the engine could be started by opening the throttle, turning on both ignition systems, flicking the spark advance back and forth, and the engine would catch.  IOTW, a very well balanced engine.  Yes, only a 6, but likely the best, large 6 of the era.

 

If I were in a position to own an antique RR today, I'd still pick a SP P1 iron head vehicle.  I don't know the pricing, but it would depend on body style, desirability, condition, rareness, and current market conditions.  If you decide you want to buy a specific vehicle, get it thoroughly checked out by an expert.  Also, before choosing, consider what you want to do with the car.  Is it to enjoy owning and driving one (I maintained ours as a teen and I really enjoyed that) or is it to say, win shows?

[SC38dls]

I’m not in the market for one. I saw a P III and was just curious because I like this thread to read. 
dave s 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, SC38dls said:

Not knowing anything about RR’s or really any car, how would a RR Phantom III 12 cylinder car in comparable condition stack up to any of the I or II is style and value? 
dave s 

Typically the phantom III  will not be as attractive as any random phantom I or II. The engine sits forward, so the hood looks short.

[edinmass]

I recommend three ex wives without a pre nup VS owning a PIII. The three divorces will be much less expensive and less aggravating than owning a phantom three.

[prewarnut]

   I think this is safe to post as it was on Twitter whose license allows re-posting.

I believe Mr. Goldfinger hath stepped away from me car a bit too long....

 

 

[pbug56]

That is very funny.

[alsancle]

On 5/11/2022 at 7:17 PM, alsancle said:

NOTE:  I posted this in the wrong thread before.  Moved here.

 

Now this is interesting.   Typical of Bohman and Schwartz coachwork.   I believe this is pictured in Rolls Royce in America.

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/rolls-royce/phantom-i-springfield/2569209.html

 

1931 Rolls-Royce Springfield Phantom I with Bohman & Schwartz coachwork, chassis S443MR.  Until recently in the 50+ years ownership of Bob LeCoque, the car has now been recommissioned and is running and driving.  Distinctive bodywork by a prominent Pasadena coachbuilder that now needs a full restoration. Lots of images and video available.
 

Glyn Morris +1 847 274 5874
 

US$39,500.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I failed to mention it before, but the body was moved from PII to PI and the transition just didn't work.    When it was on the PII chassis it sat much lower.   Here is a front shot of the same car.

 

 

[pbug56]

One of the oddest looking RR's I've ever seen either in photos or in person.

[alsancle]

900 k all in. A deal.

 

 

[alsancle]

You have to give him credit.  Peter Kumar finds the coolest stuff.

 

https://www.gullwingmotorcars.com/1926-rolls-royce-silver-ghost-lhd-c-4816.htm

 

[JV Puleo]

I like it...I wish I could afford it. That's exactly the condition I would like to find one in.

[pbug56]

I see that there are layout differences in the engine vs. the P1.  Anyone have any detail on this?  As I recall, on the P1 the distributors are on the left, both carbs on the right.  Though it has been 30 years or so since I last looked at my Dad's 28 SP P1.

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I like it...I wish I could afford it. That's exactly the condition I would like to find one in.

 

If Mark Smith were still alive, this has his name written all over it.  The 1931 update definitely helped the styling out.

[JV Puleo]

17 hours ago, pbug56 said:

I see that there are layout differences in the engine vs. the P1.  Anyone have any detail on this?  As I recall, on the P1 the distributors are on the left, both carbs on the right.  Though it has been 30 years or so since I last looked at my Dad's 28 SP P1.

It is a completely different engine. Although modified over the years it is essentially the engine introduced in 1908. It has jugs with blind bores, thus no detachable head and side valves which, except for the late LHD American cars, were not enclosed. The PI has overhead valves. This car has dual distributors, another feature of the late American cars where most Ghosts, including earlier American-made cars, have a distributor and a magneto.

 

The rest of the chassis was changed very little between the Ghost and the PI which was, essentially, an "interim" model introduced because the market was resisting the "old fashioned" Ghost engine. The LHD American cars were made simultaneously with the earliest British New Phantoms as a stop-gap measure while RR of America tooled up to make the new model.

[JV Puleo]

13 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

If Mark Smith were still alive, this has his name written all over it.  The 1931 update definitely helped the styling out.

Not to me...but, since in my case this is pure fantasy, given a choice I'd like a bid RHD sedan...though I do think the American ones are superior!

[pbug56]

4 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

It is a completely different engine. Although modified over the years it is essentially the engine introduced in 1908. It has jugs with blind bores, thus no detachable head and side valves which, except for the late LHD American cars, were not enclosed. The PI has overhead valves. This car has dual distributors, another feature of the late American cars where most Ghosts, including earlier American-made cars, have a distributor and a magneto.

 

The rest of the chassis was changed very little between the Ghost and the PI which was, essentially, an "interim" model introduced because the market was resisting the "old fashioned" Ghost engine. The LHD American cars were made simultaneously with the earliest British New Phantoms as a stop-gap measure while RR of America tooled up to make the new model.

The SP P1 had full dual ignition, and could run on either, but normally ran on both.  I also noticed, in one photo, that the SG had what looked like the same beautiful brass carb.  As a teen, starting and running the P1 engine was quite a pleasure once we got the carbs rebuilt.

[JV Puleo]

Yes...the Ghost could also run on one or the other distributors...it worked the  same when there was one distributor and a  magneto. The carburetors look similar but are not at all alike and certainly not interchangeable. The Ghost intake manifold actually runs over the top of the engine so the intake side of the jugs is on the opposite side from the carb.

The Ghost also had what was known as the "starting carburetor" on top of the intake manifold and controlled by a rod through the firewall that you operated with your foot. I actually have a lot more experience with Ghosts and I can't remember if the PI also had one. The RR carbs were unique to that car...they fit nothing else and were never made by one of the major suppliers. I think this was the case with all models up to WWII. I don't remember what the post war Silver Clouds used...it was a single barrel downdraft, but the MkVI Bentleys used a pair of SU's.

[pbug56]

The SP P1's, at least around 1928-29, also had the separate starting carb, but it was operated, as I recall, by a lever on the 'dashboard'.  The primary carb had a mixture control on the steering wheel hub on top; at full rich it also injected oil to deal with oil runoff when the car was shut down.  As you moved the mixture lever to the right, you could feel a bit of extra resistance.  This all led to a fairly crazy starting sequence, for anyone who doesn't know it (cold engine).  Mixture to full rich.  Hand throttle open, spark retarded.  Key turned, spark lever to both, depress starter button with your foot.  Engine catches, you lift your foot, start to advance, after a few seconds turn off the starting carb, start to ease off the mixture.  Continue to engine smooth, mixture to reflect what altitude you were at.  That's it, more or less, multiple pages in the owners manual to get through the sequence.  And of course, don't forget a pull on the Bijur, preferably on the street, not your garage floor or driveway.

 

Engine warm, you MIGHT get away with turn key, ignition to both, throttle open, mixture a bit rich, flick spark advance lever up and down, mixture in cylinders ignites, engine starts.

 

Taught myself with the help of the manual, and things I heard at car shows!  🙂

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, pbug56 said:

The SP P1's, at least around 1928-29, also had the separate starting carb, but it was operated, as I recall, by a lever on the 'dashboard'.  The primary carb had a mixture control on the steering wheel hub on top; at full rich it also injected oil to deal with oil runoff when the car was shut down.  As you moved the mixture lever to the right, you could feel a bit of extra resistance.  This all led to a fairly crazy starting sequence, for anyone who doesn't know it (cold engine).  Mixture to full rich.  Hand throttle open, spark retarded.  Key turned, spark lever to both, depress starter button with your foot.  Engine catches, you lift your foot, start to advance, after a few seconds turn off the starting carb, start to ease off the mixture.  Continue to engine smooth, mixture to reflect what altitude you were at.  That's it, more or less, multiple pages in the owners manual to get through the sequence.  And of course, don't forget a pull on the Bijur, preferably on the street, not your garage floor or driveway.

 

Engine warm, you MIGHT get away with turn key, ignition to both, throttle open, mixture a bit rich, flick spark advance lever up and down, mixture in cylinders ignites, engine starts.

 

Taught myself with the help of the manual, and things I heard at car shows!  🙂

This is all true mostly for the PII also.  

[pbug56]

18 hours ago, alsancle said:

This is all true mostly for the PII also.  

Interesting.  RROA in Springfield never built P2's, and I've never gotten a good look inside.

[metalbender]

similar to model a starting sequence.  i sure like the roof line on this one.

[pbug56]

8 hours ago, metalbender said:

similar to model a starting sequence.  i sure like the roof line on this one.

Except that a P1 had so many more moving pieces.  2 ignition systems, 2 separate carbs plus the mixture control, but one thing in common - none of it was automated back then.

[alsancle]

23 hours ago, pbug56 said:

Interesting.  RROA in Springfield never built P2's, and I've never gotten a good look inside.

 

I just re-read what you said,  almost identical.

[alsancle]

Gooding has this Special Newmark consigned for Pebble.  On my list of pure awesomeness.

 

https://www.goodingco.com/lot/1932-rolls-royce-phantom-ii-special-newmarket-permanent-sedan

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

This is back on eBay.  it is really too bad they took the body off a PII chassis as it looked so much better on there.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1931-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-/386050508832

 

 

 

[alsancle]

The Special Newmarket failed to sell at Gooding.  Spectacular car that needed some love.  This photo is from the Gooding lot where it was available post auction.   These AJS series cars are the best prewar RR to me (a LHD American guy).  I realize the Ghost is the favorite for many.

 

 

[58L-Y8]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

The Special Newmarket failed to sell at Gooding.  Spectacular car that needed some love.  This photo is from the Gooding lot where it was available post auction.   These AJS series cars are the best prewar RR to me (a LHD American guy).  I realize the Ghost is the favorite for many.

 

 

A.J.:

What was the high bid they rejected?    I consider those Phantom II Special Newmarket sport sedan the quintessence of all the aesthetic aspects of the Pre-war Coachbuilt Rolls-Royce.

Steve

[alsancle]

2 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

A.J.:

What was the high bid they rejected?    I consider those Phantom II Special Newmarket sport sedan the quintessence of all the aesthetic aspects of the Pre-war Coachbuilt Rolls-Royce.

Steve

Steve,  I believe high bid was 440k.   So, 445K would have bought it.   It needed a lot of love but it was fantastic!   One of my all time favorite four door sedans.  This was a divider car, but out of the 3 one did have buckets which is owned by a friend.

[58L-Y8]

5 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Steve,  I believe high bid was 440k.   So, 445K would have bought it.   It needed a lot of love but it was fantastic!   One of my all time favorite four door sedans.  This was a divider car, but out of the 3 one did have buckets which is owned by a friend.

A.J.:

Just confirms we both have great taste in pre-war sport sedans...he of course remarked humbly.   A four armchair bucket seat interior would be the absolute pinnacle in one of the Special Newmarkets. 

BTW, that car needs black wall tires and Ace disks for the wire wheels.

Steve

Edited August 27, 2023 by 58L-Y8
addendum comments (see edit history)