American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[pbug56]

I agree.  I had forgotten (it's hard to see in the one photo) the lights just ahead of the rear doors - I think my father called them opera lights.  It has the other 2 that look like searchlights.  It looks like it has the pipe bumpers and 'pistons', and drum headlights.  I can't imagine there were many identical cars built.

 

On the coachbuild site, the photo name starts with RR NPS Riviera Brewster.  Any idea what would NPS refer to?  

 

A photo of one of these was in the RR book I had decades ago, noted as a Springfield P1 Riviera.  I believe the price noted in the book was around $19,500, around the same as I think noted here.

[prewarnut]

On the site they're calling it a "new Phantom Springfield" but I'm not sure it was really ever denoted that. Others here with more expertise may comment. Originally P1s were "New Phantoms" if I recall correctly.

[prewarnut]

Here's presumably a different car.

 

[edinmass]

Many cars went back and had new bumpers, headlights, and fender skirts installed. Do the math. The depression is raging. And your 20k car looks five years newer for just a few hundred bucks. Many cars were converted post war to bring more money……..drum lights and bar bumpers look 1920’s old fashioned. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:41 PM, pbug56 said:

I'm beginning to wonder if buyers of P1's in the US could easily choose bumper types and headlight styles.  Oh, and wheel types.  This car, to me, looks 1928 or 1929 except for the British bumpers or lights.

It’s not the Neathercutt car………different front door shape and moldings.

Edited May 30, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

21 minutes ago, edinmass said:

It’s not the Neathercutt door………different front door shape and moldings.

You are right Eddy.   Before seeing the pictures I was not attributing it 100% to being a Riviera.    Which it clearly is.   The Riviera town car was the Ascot cowl with a towncar passenger compartment on it.  It has the folding windshield.

[alsancle]

Using DeCampi as a reference,  going newest to oldest the following are the chassis numbers for the Riviera towncars:

 

1. S188PR AC Blumenthal NYC

 

2. S310LR  FB Rentschler  West Hartford Conn

 

3. S268KR  EF Jeffe NYC

 

4.  S395KP  EE Herrsher SF CA   Chassis junked in 1939.

 

5. S364KP  Marilyn Miller

 

A few disclaimers,  there are some missing entries,  some cars were body swapped in period and some bodies are not listed.

Edited May 30, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[pbug56]

6 hours ago, prewarnut said:

On the site they're calling it a "new Phantom Springfield" but I'm not sure it was really ever denoted that. Others here with more expertise may comment. Originally P1s were "New Phantoms" if I recall correctly.

P1 and New Phantom were the same thing, of course.

[pbug56]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

Many cars went back and had new bumpers, headlights, and fender skirts installed. Do the math. The depression is raging. And your 20k car looks five years newer for just a few hundred bucks. Many cars were converted post war to bring more money……..drum lights and bar bumpers look 1920’s old fashioned. 

Hard to disagree - at the time the updates would have been the thing.  Of course, many of us like 'original'.  But it explains how Riviera's came to look so different, that plus the canework was apparently not on every car.

[pbug56]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

Using DeCampi as a reference,  going newest to oldest the following are the chassis numbers for the Riviera towncars:

 

1. S188PR AC Blumenthal NYC

 

2. S310LR  FB Rentschler  West Hartford Conn

 

3. S268KR  EF Jeffe NYC

 

4.  S395KP  EE Herrsher SF CA   Chassis junked in 1939.

 

5. S364KP  Marilyn Miller

 

A few disclaimers,  there are some missing entries,  some cars were body swapped in period and some bodies are not listed.

I've heard of two types of body swapping - wanting to change look, and different bodies based on things like time of year.

[pbug56]

Have any of you heard of either one belonging to Henry Luce, or of any that disappeared, or gotten run down?  Or both?

[alsancle]

Just now, pbug56 said:

Have any of you heard of either one belonging to Henry Luce, or of any that disappeared, or gotten run down?  Or both?

 

If you are a member of the RROC you can request the ownership history and car file that they have.   I think it is 85/car.  You could give them your dad's name and ask if they will give you the one with your dad in the history.

[pbug56]

21 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

If you are a member of the RROC you can request the ownership history and car file that they have.   I think it is 85/car.  You could give them your dad's name and ask if they will give you the one with your dad in the history.

I did reach out.  Both were registered, both are again.  I probably will ask for the reports not so much on current owners (which I think they keep private) but the history.  At any rate, the Riviera is S1222FR.  

 

[1906 lozier]

that car is in New Hampshire

[alsancle]

The club publishes a roster to its members, which I believe includes the chassis numbers in each car owned by each member. Unless I’m confusing the RROC with the CCCA.

[pbug56]

2 hours ago, 1906 lozier said:

that car is in New Hampshire

I hope that the current owner is able to have it restored properly.  It's really a beautiful car.  Though the restoration will no doubt be difficult and expensive, at the end is something special and uncommon.

[pbug56]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

The club publishes a roster to its members, which I believe includes the chassis numbers in each car owned by each member. Unless I’m confusing the RROC with the CCCA.

RROC does maintain a roster, and I've been told both cars are in it; that's how I got the chassis number.  If no one here knows its history, I'll see what it costs to get whatever they can dig up.

[alsancle]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1927-rolls-royce-phantom-

 

This 1927 Rolls-Royce Phantom I is a left-hand drive sedan that was reportedly purchased by the seller’s father in 1968, and it has remained with the family since. Refinished in black over a beige cloth interior, the car is powered by a 7.7-liter inline-six paired with a three-speed manual gearbox. The Brewster coachwork is mounted to a replacement chassis, and equipment includes an upholstered roof, rear coach doors, painted wire wheels, wood interior trim, and a chassis lubrication system. The engine was rebuilt in 1997, and work completed within the past four years is said to have included a fuel system cleaning and servicing, an oil change, and coolant flush. This Phantom 1 is now offered with photos and correspondence dating back to 1954, spare engine components, an assortment of tools, and a clean Oklahoma title in the seller’s name.

 

 

[John Bloom]

AJ, I love the top shelf, make no apologies classics of this era. For those of us who don’t play in this arena, what reaction does “mounted on a replacement chassis” cause for those who are knowledgeable of RR of this era?  No big deal (swapping was done all the time?)???  Value takes a small hit, but  isn’t a show stopper???  Value takes a huge it and no purist will touch it????  
 

or is the answer “it depends .....”

 

 

[edinmass]

John…….it depends. On this particular car it is of little meaning. On a Ascot or Derby…..its a huge black mark and a deal killer.

[John Bloom]

Thanks Ed. Good to know..  so many nuances and different sets of rules (written and unwritten) depending on make/model, era, coachbuilt, etc.  

 

I wonder if this will will find a new owner and what the hammer price might be.

[alsfarms]

A Springfield doesn't dance by the same rules and boundaries as a Derby RR?  I am confused.

Al

Edited July 11, 2022 by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

[pbug56]

I wrote here several weeks ago about a P1 Springfield Riviera Town Car my father once had, and at the time, he considered switching engines with that from a slightly older P1 with a 'lesser' body (limo instead of the rather rare and beautiful Riviera Town Car with the painted cane work).  But it was my impression that this would have greatly reduced the value of the car (all other issues ignored).  

 

So I'm curious - why would one replace the chassis?  With cars like these, restoration, if needed, seems to make more sense - at least to me.  

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, alsfarms said:

A Springfield doesn't dance by the same rules and boundaries as a Derby RR?  I am confused.

Al

 

Al…….a Derby Springfield……….its a body style……….so I was implying engine swaps on sedans with square lines are not affected with body/engine/chassis swaps compared to the highly desirable open specials…..take a look at an Ascot vs Derby…….

 

Assume both are numbers matching cars………there are about 20 Ascots and five Derby’s ………toss around numbers for two very similar cars? Derby 300k current, Ascot 2.0 from five years ago.

Edited July 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, John Bloom said:

AJ, I love the top shelf, make no apologies classics of this era. For those of us who don’t play in this arena, what reaction does “mounted on a replacement chassis” cause for those who are knowledgeable of RR of this era?  No big deal (swapping was done all the time?)???  Value takes a small hit, but  isn’t a show stopper???  Value takes a huge it and no purist will touch it????  
 

or is the answer “it depends .....”

 

 

 

I couldn't find the replacement chassis comment.  It doesn't matter on this car.   Or if it does, it matters 10k.    I'm gonna guess that it isn't a replacement chassis but a body swap.  The chassis that was originally under this limo got a more desirable body back in the 50s or 60s or 70s.    Sometimes the left over bodies got tossed but in this case it was saved.

 

Neat car.   I'll save my value comments for after it hammers, but the range is set in stone.

[alsancle]

Btw,   it would be nice to see paperwork on that engine work.   It is a big deal.   I had the pleasure of talking to one of the top RR guys in the US last week and he reminded me that a Ghost/PI/PII engine rebuilt was 100k now.

[Milburn Drysdale]

What makes a RR engine rebuild more then a Packard 12 or other high end car? 

[prewarnut]

...I'll get the popcorn.

AJ, would we assume that figure doesn't include the price of a P1 head as well?

Edited July 11, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Why the chassis swap? probably a low milage sedan and the better chassis was put under a real open car or a repro body.......chassis work on these cars are very expensive then and now.......

 

Why is a RR P1 more than a Packard 12 or Model J? Simple.......its three times the work. Hard to explain unless you have done one. A Packard 12 is a Briggs & Stratton compared to the P1. 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[trimacar]

As Ed states, very complicated cars to work on.

 

I've only had real life experience with one Rolls restoration.  T

 

They obviously had an engineer to design complex solutions to simple problems, then another engineer to redesign, making the complex solutions seem simple compared to end result.

[alsancle]

They are complicated but when sorted properly are very reliable.     Prewar RR are awesome because:

 

1.   This car was more expensive than a Duesenberg Model J when new.

 

2.   You can buy it for the price of a decent musclecar.  Or less.

 

3.  The construction quality is off the charts.

 

4.  You can buy new every part on the car.

 

Ed is the biggest car snob on here and he has come around on RR in the last 10 years.     Right Ed?

Edited July 11, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

[Walt G]

Swap swap swap. The Springfield PI I had was a Trouville town car - S74PM. The body was mounted in 1933 on the 1927 chassis and the limousine body that was original to the car was removed. All this was done under the watchful eye of RR of America at the Brewster body plant in Long Island City . To resell a car or perhaps update it changes were done. When the car I had was new it had the drum headlamps, more rounded larger fenders of the current style. When it was "swapped" in 1933 the fenders and lamps were updated to the current "look" which was leaner in appearance and was what was on the new Phantom II now on offer in RR showrooms at the time. One has to take into account what was going on then besides the current thoughts about a car ; most of the time the attitude is totally different.

A look at the auction catalog when the Brewster plant and contents were up for sale in 1937 tells a great deal about what was being done by what was "in stock" that was being sold - chassis, bodies, etc.

I totally agree a RR of that era with twin ignition etc is best purchased "done" and sorted by someone very very knowledgeable , and if you are an owner have a good friend who can help you understand all of it................

 

[pbug56]

I've long been aware that some owners would have two bodies for their car based on things like time of year.  And I learned here a short time ago that Brewster would update bodies to match current styles, something rather startling to me, but then again, this was long before I was born.

[Keith Ward]

I have a friend here in the UK who has a P1 stashed away (so far its a 30 year restoration) that had 3 bodies built for it by Park Ward between 1928 and 1939 to keep up with fashion.

[pbug56]

I wonder which one I'd prefer, and which one would be most valuable today.  I've compared different versions of the Riviera Town Car, and I like the Springfield P1 as built in 1929 the most.

[alsancle]

On 7/11/2022 at 2:44 PM, pbug56 said:

I wonder which one I'd prefer, and which one would be most valuable today.  I've compared different versions of the Riviera Town Car, and I like the Springfield P1 as built in 1929 the most.

 

In PI land the later styling updates in 29-31 seem to be preferred. Before the new heads were available everybody wanted the earlier iron head cars.  

[pbug56]

My dad made it clear (he was an engineer) that he had a rather low opinion of the 1929 or so Springfield P1 aluminum heads, and I think it was for good reason.  I've no idea if the car was at all runnable when he bought it.  His older Springfield P1 was not 'perfect', missing a bit of the limo divider (window went up and down fine), and from not being run regularly eventually had gumming problems, but after all was cleaned, fixed, etc., that iron head engine was super smooth.  I'd run it whenever I could (this was probably before I was old enough to drive).  It did help that I had an owners manual...

[alsancle]

Peter Kumar is selling this Springfield PI with what I think is an attractive sedan body installed in 36 by Brewster to replace the original Brewster towncar body.   Fenders are reminiscent of late Model J 17" wheel fenders (which I don't actually like).

 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1927-Rolls-Royce-Phantom-I-/275384772196

 

1927 Rolls-Royce Phantom I Dover Special Limousine Left-Hand Drive: Coachwork by Brewster

This left-hand drive Phantom I was originally bodied by Brewster as a Salamanca De Ville it was re-bodied with its current 'Special Dover' (five-passenger sport sedan) coachwork, again by Brewster, in 1936. It was first delivered new to L E Mallory Esq, of Bradford, Pennsylvania on May 29, 1928. Rolls-Royce Owners Club records indicate a series of ownerslargely in the Midwest. Restored in 1980-1982, the car was exported to Sweden about a decade later and owned there initially by Erland Stenbrott in the south of the country. The Phantom's second owner in Sweden has used it only for historic motoring events and special occasions, carefully maintaining the car. The Rolls would eventually make its way to Switzerland, and in 2008 would be acquired by the previous owner here in the states. Elegantly presented and uniquely fitted with a division separating the oxblood leather front seats from the well-preserved beige broadcloth rear compartment, this Rolls has clearly benefited from prior cosmetic restoration work largely on the exterior. Mechanically sound, it starts up, runs and drives. Nonetheless, given its long-term limited use, more thorough mechanical recommissioning is recommended prior to active use. It wears decent old paint and a highly usable interior with particularly strong front leather. It has good gauges and has all of the accessories inside. It's structurally straight and solid. The top fabric is also in good condition. There's a lot to like about this Rolls-Royce. A lovely machine for tours or local drives, this Phantom I is now ready for its next, lucky owner.

Chassis no. S311FM
Engine no. 20117

A Phantom I with period-updated Brewster coachwork

Well known American history

Quality built motorcar of the Classic era

Accompanied by copies of RROC records

Price: $ 67,500

 

 

 

 

 

[pbug56]

I look at the controls and I can almost feel them and what it's like to operate them, down to the mixture control, that set to full rich also injected some oil into the cylinders.  Funny thing, when as a kid I took care of our 1928 SP P1, I only had easy access to the right side, so I seldom saw the Bijur, or the distributors, coils or plugs of the dual ignition system.