My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[Terry Harper]

15 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Terry, how did you degrease the steel wool. I was thinking of soaking it in acetone or maybe carb cleaner? I am pretty sure that I haven't prepared the surface well enough.

 

Registration is a real challenge with this one because there are no corners. I'm working on that now...

Yes, acetone works well. Joe, have you thought about using a traditional photo etching emulsion rather than the PNP blue film? You could fairly easily have the film (artwork) cut to fit the part so registration would be far less of an issue.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I'm not familiar with it, but my work never involved sophisticated plate making. I have several things here to try, including some clear film. That would eliminate the registration problem but I don't know how it will react to the heat.  As I work on this I'll be keeping notes so hopefully I can do a posting on how it finally succeeded,

Edited June 11, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I'm a little stuck on the switch job until I solve the etching problem but I was able to do a few things. First, I dyed the cap with alcohol-based leather dye. This worked well although later I put it back in the lathe and smoothed the surface out a bit more.

 

 

Then I assembled the switch to see how the parts fit.

 

 

This is the plate that goes on the engine side of the firewall...

 

 

The internal stationary piece is locked to it with nuts and washers. The studs could be a little longer...not a problem as these are the short ones I have.

 

 

Then the cap...

 

 

This didn't take very long so I decided to tackle the torque tube. This is another problem that has been niggling me. I've been looking at it for a long time and simply couldn't figure out how to take it apart. Needless to say, I don't want to damage anything. That threaded sleeve is obviously the adjustment. Some time ago I unthreaded it in the hope I could pull it out. That was a big mistake because even though it's loose in there, I haven't been able to restart the threads to screw it in. The pinion obviously pulls off but there isn't room to get the jaws of a gear puller under it.

 

 

I thought to press it off so I set it up in the press.

 

 

I pressed to the point where I felt "this isn't working" and BEFORE something broke...

I took it out and tipped it up on the pinion end (which I hadn't done before) and something rattled...there was a three=part thrust bearing in there, apart and the pieces floating around.

 

 

With those out, I slipped in a bar (actually, an axle removed from my 1910 REO about 35 years ago) and gave the end a tap...and the pinion and bearing simply dropped out...

 

 

Now it looked as if it would press apart so I put it back in the press. The pinion is on a taper so it literally "popped" when the pressure was high enough to release it.

 

 

To my surprise, the bearing is a very good one...a New Departure and appears to be in excellent condition. It's the first bearing I've found in this car that is identifiable. It's clear that someone had tried to take this apart before. The nut that retained that thrust washer (and probably a sleeve), as well as the drive shaft are missing so if anyone out there has taken apart a similar rear end, I'm all ears!

 

I still have to get that threaded sleeve out but at least I now know that it has to come out from the front....not the back like I originally tried.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Interesting how both your front axle and rear axle are somewhat unconventional designs. I wonder if they were Mitchells own design or bought in ? Any casting or forging marks that might give any clues ?

[JV Puleo]

None that I have noticed. These parts are very well made though, which isn't consistent with other parts of the car. They either had  very haphazard "quality control" in the Mitchell factory or they bought components from a variety of manufacturers, some of which were good...others not so good. They did have a large plant, bought by Nash when they folded and only torn down a few years ago. The only thing I can say with certainty is that their quality is all over the map.

 

This car, the "Mitchell Model T" (very confusing to modern folks who don't know that almost everyone used letters or numbers to designate models) was a 2-year only product...1910 & 1911. It obviously had problems because there was a complete redesign in 1912. Never having seen one, I've no idea how much of the earlier design was used. They did advertise the 1912 cars as "The American Built French Car" which implies that is where a lot of their design details may have come from.

Edited June 11, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:47 PM, Terry Harper said:

... have you thought about using a traditional photo etching emulsion rather than the PNP blue film? You could fairly easily have the film (artwork) cut to fit the part so registration would be far less of an issue.

I have ordered some transfer film similar to the blue material but with a yellow finish that will make it much easier to see the black image. The major problem is heat transfer. For that, I've ordered a small heat press – the kind used for printing T-shirts. I freely admit I'm going overboard on this but my repeated failures are driving me on to perfect the technique. I hadn't anticipated how difficult registration would be with a round brass disc so I've refined that a bit also, incorporating registration marks into the print.

Edited June 11, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I figured out the rear axle ratio...it's 3.3 (actually 3.294) to 1. I wouldn't mind 3.5:1 but judging from the problems Harm is having, it's not worth the effort since my gears are very good. Gears like that are very difficult – almost impossible to make without a gear shaper so it's not a task that is lightly undertaken. I do have oversize tires...so I'll pick up a little "reach" there.

[Gary_Ash]

Just remember, Joe:  Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!  Keep at it.

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Gary...I totally agree.

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

None that I have noticed. These parts are very well made though, which isn't consistent with other parts of the car. They either had  very haphazard "quality control" in the Mitchell factory or they bought components from a variety of manufacturers, some of which were good...others not so good. They did have a large plant, bought by Nash when they folded and only torn down a few years ago. The only thing I can say with certainty is that their quality is all over the map.

 

This car, the "Mitchell Model T" (very confusing to modern folks who don't know that almost everyone used letters or numbers to designate models) was a 2-year only product...1910 & 1911. It obviously had problems because there was a complete redesign in 1912. Never having seen one, I've no idea how much of the earlier design was used. They did advertise the 1912 cars as "The American Built French Car" which implies that is where a lot of their design details may have come from.

 

In keeping with the French theme, your front axle is a perfect example.  I have seen a few later Mitchells , quite conventional in most regards.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I find it interesting because it preserves the notion that France was the source of advanced design...which it was in the very first years of the century. I don't think that was the case by 1910 but the popular impression must still have been favorable.

[1912Staver]

Some French cars were still quite  " state of the art " in 1910.  Lots of small, cheap ones as well but the good ones were quite good. 

[JV Puleo]

Yes. You are absolutely correct. I'm thinking of ALCO which was a license built Brasier. In fact, on the chain drive 1910 ALCO that belonged to Manny Souza the gauges said "American Brasier" on their faces. One of the cars that didn't get built, as far as I know was the Hotchkiss. The Winchester Repeating Arms Company negotiated a license to build them and their future production was announced in newspapers but, as far as I know, the project fell through. B.B. Hotchkiss was primarily an American arms maker living and working in France but he also had a long association with Winchester who manufactured his early bolt-action rifle for US Army testing. There are probably others but off-hand I can't think of them.

[TonyAus]

I think you mean Berliet rather than Brasier.  ALCO used the American Berliet name up until 1909 when they adopted their own branding.  Incidentally, Berliet in France used the image of a locomotive on their badging as indication of their hookup with ALCO.  In a later development, their post-WW1 VB model was copy of the Dodge Brothers car seen commonly on the WW1 battlefields. The shoe moved to the other foot.

[JV Puleo]

Your'e RIGHT! That's what I get for typing at the end of a long day. Thanks...

 

jp

[JV Puleo]

Progress today was slow...some more bits for the etching came in that I'll experiment with tonight and I put the pinion end of the torque tube in my home-made hot tank...

 

 

It cooked all day and still didn't get all of the old, very black, grease out. I also cleaned up the thrust bearing which looks to be in good shape also but it's a readily available size so I will probably go with a good quality new one. The threaded adjuster didn't work any better but, in looking at it with a good light now that most of the grease was dissolved, it looks as if it's two pieces with the face that bears up against the thrust washer screwed into the threaded adjuster. That's the only purpose I can think of for these two blind holes which I am guessing were for a special two-pin spanner.

 

 

The holes are 5/16" in diameter and very neatly take a 5/16 dowel pin. I will have to make the spanner. Calculating the distance between centers is tough because none of my measuring tools will fit in a hole that deep but it's very likely that the measurement is some rational number. I'll give it some thought tonight and perhaps start on it tomorrow.

[TonyAus]

You might like to try turning up two short 5/16 pins.  Lightly centre each with a small centre drill and place them in the respective holes.  Measure the distance between the centres with a pair of dividers and a suitable rule.

 

But I bet you've already thought about something along these lines! 

[JV Puleo]

12 minutes ago, TonyAus said:

You might like to try turning up two short 5/16 pins.  Lightly centre each with a small centre drill and place them in the respective holes.  Measure the distance between the centres with a pair of dividers and a suitable rule.

 

But I bet you've already thought about something along these lines! 

I didn't think of that but you are right. In fact, I have some 5/16 ground stock....easy enough to cut two pieces and put a center hole in them. Thanks!

[JV Puleo]

As TonyAus suggested, I made two 5/16 pins center drilled. I don't know why I didn't think of that...since I've done it several times in the past. It's probably just a result of it being the end of the day.

 

 

They go in the spanner holes and you use a pair of dividers to get the measurement.

 

 

While doing that, I was cutting off a piece of round stock...

 

 

That was faced off on both sides and drilled 11/16. (For the 3/4-16 bolt I'll be inserting here.)

 

 

With that done, I turned it down to a few thousandths under the size of the bearing.

 

 

And tried it in the torque tube...

 

 

While doing this, I was also trying to strip the last of the nickel plate on the lever...it isn't coming off easily but I think I've got it now.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I only got a few hours in the shop today although the heat press for the etching project came in. I'll set that up tonight at home if I have energy. Today I made a centering tool for the steel "hockey puck" spanner, starting with a piece of 1-1/4" bar, faced off and reamed .0005 under 1/2"

 

 

I also cut a piece of 1/2" drill rod, faced both ends and put in center holes. The big piece was drilled and tapped for a pointed set screw. I then pressed the drill rod into the hole and tightened the screw.

 

 

Then back in the lathe to be faced off, holding the shank in a collet, and a very light cut taken. The idea here is to make the OD of the large end absolutely concentric with the shank.

 

 

 

Then it was just a matter of putting a 60-degree taper on the piece in the same manner I did the aluminum grinding fixtures. I used the drill rod because it has an accurate ground surface and I'll want to use this in either a collet or a tool holder to center a hole directly under the spindle of the mill. I like the idea so much that I'm going to make another, much larger to use on the ignition switch.

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I haven't much to report today. Between helping my cousin with a problem at his house, cleaning up the "tropical rain forest" that borders our parking lot and a n old friend visiting I only got about half an hour to work on the Mitchell so I set up the spanner to drill the holes for the 5/16" dowel pins. You can see how the tool I made a few days ago works...

 

 

Then the table was lowered and the piece moved over what I hope is the exact amount, 1.275".

 

 

I also made a little progress with the etching last night. It looks as if the heat press is the way to go if you want consistent results but I still am having trouble registering the print in exactly the right place.

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

 

I also made a little progress with the etching last night. It looks as if the heat press is the way to go if you want consistent results but I still am having trouble registering the print in exactly the right place.

Hello Joe,

 

Could you include a circle on the artwork that would be concentric to the part? or a fixture with a center point? i.e. it would fit inside hole but level or just a tad below the top of the part and include a center registration mark to line-up with the art work? How thick is the brass?

 

If its not too thick you could make a double sided mask that folds over the stock with the corners aligned using registration marks. When you etch it it etches the text half the thickness and the center hole and perimeter the full thickness of the stock. Here is an example of a resulting front & back mask.

The perimeter and view hole were cut all the way through while the text being one side only went halfway through. The mask was simply folded over the stock, registered at the marks (not shown) and stapled. Since I was using an iron the staples were not in the way. I ironed one side, flipped and ironed the other than into the ice water bath it went.

 

 

 

And fresh out of etchant. You can see the registration marks near the corners of the stock. Note the permanent marker used to fix blemishes in the mask.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Terry, here's what the switch plate looks like. Both the internal and external borders are very slightly larger than the finished piece. The idea was to center them carefully using those guides. I've only tried it once and, for some reason, it shifted slightly. If this piece was rectangular it wouldn't have made a noticeable difference but, because it's round, it is more apparent. I'm gong to keep trying and I'll look into making the mask you suggest. I'm also experimenting with different materials, I suspect the people who produce youtube videos do not have my background in paper, the result of a lifetime in the printing trade so there are several things I'd like to try.

 

On the one I did last night, the lettering adhered to the brass perfectly. The borders were a little broken up at the edges but that is easily fixed. If the alignment had been correct, I'd have etched it.

 

The brass is .040 thick...I like the idea of a center fixture to fit inside the brass and line up with the printed cross hairs. I'll think about how to do that...

 

j

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

I opened this topic today for first time and having scrolled thru 82 pages have been mesmerized by the skill, understanding, creativity and patience exhibited in making such complex and precise parts. I've never used a lathe (except 50 years ago to turn some wood spindles) so it is fascinating to see an overly modest expert at work.

[JV Puleo]

Thank you...but I'm hardly an expert. I'm more stubborn than anything else. The original inspiration for this thread came from Frank (F&J) who  suggested that many members would actually be interested in what I do. I was skeptical but he was right. In reality, I'm an amateur...never having worked in the machine trade. My first, and only experience with machine tools (until I bought a lathe when I was in my 20s) was in the 7th & 8th grades. The shop I have now was created in the past 10 years. I guess my main point is that anyone who wants to do these things, can. I admit it isn't cheap, but it isn't outlandishly expensive either. A tremendous amount can be accomplished with machines that 90% of the professional machinists out there would consider scrap metal. I disagree with that but it's pointless to argue. I'm happy to have the machines most don't want. With patience this is all stuff most of us could do.

Edited June 18, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Dan Cluley]

I may be misunderstanding how the process works, but after printing the design, could the transfer film be cut into the proper size circle to match the edges of the brass circle?

[JV Puleo]

Because the design includes a border, the film should be slightly bigger than the circle. Also, cutting a circle that accurately would be difficult. I'll try again the same way I did the last one...the movement may have been a fluke but I'm also thinking of a variation on Terry's idea of a mask - or in this case, an alignment paper disc that will go in the center and line up with the cross hairs.

[JV Puleo]

My most recent effort lined up perfectly...and I realized I'd been printing the image on the wrong side of the paper! I'll try again, but I think we are getting close.

[Duey C]

He was correct, we like keeping up with your work sir.

Old machinery is just old, not out.

This thank you is from a tractor mechanic that looks in every day to see.

[JV Puleo]

I finally got a reasonably good registration on the switch plate...not perfect but the amount it is out is probably something only I would notice and if it looks good, I'll forget what was wrong. I etched last night and brought it in today to drop into the blacking solution.

 

 

Then I went back to the spanner for the torque tube, starting by putting two center holes in at 180-degrees.

 

 

They were drilled and reamed to 5/16"

 

 

I also threaded the center 3/4-16

 

 

 I pressed the dowel pins in and tried it. It didn't work. Actually, to get the two holes to line up perfectly so that dowel pins slipped in would have been close to an act of g od...s I went to plan B and cut two pieces of 4/8" threaded rod.

 

 

The ends were turned down to .300 (5/16 is .3125) and the holes threaded to 3/8-16. This worked better although they had to go back in the lathe to take another .020 off... Then I put a 3/6-16 bolt in the center hole with Locktite.

 

 

I think this may work...at least if this is the way it's supposed to come apart. I'll try it tomorrow after the Locktite is completely set.

 

 

And last, I checked on the switch plate. It is getting black...not as fast as I'd like but if you remember the test piece took several days to get uniformly black. The etch is fairly deep so the idea is to clean unetched parts after the background is black. You can do this with paint but this ring has to be soldered to the switch housing and paint wouldn't stand for that.

 

[Terry Harper]

Joe,

 

That looks great! Once its all together no one will ever notice that very slight misalignment other than you. Excellent!

 

T

[JV Puleo]

I will finish this one but I'm not sure I'll attach it. I have the second ring I made and I have an idea for an alignment jig I'd like to try out. I can keep this as a backup and see if I can make a perfect one.

[Mike Macartney]

Joe, I thought the misalignment was a deliberate mistake to make sure we were all paying attention! Mike

[JV Puleo]

No...but maybe I should have claimed that.

I tried the spanner today. The first problem was holding the torque tube. I solved that by clamping it to the bed of the lathe. Since the lathe weighs about a ton and a half, it can't move...or if it did, I'm a lot stronger than I knew. In any case, it engaged correctly but it didn't work. I'm now thinking that those two holes might be to screw it in and that it's made in one piece.

 

 

I went back to trying to thread it in...which is the way it came out but with no luck. Something is obviously wrong and I suspect that one of the leading threads is turned over. It's a 16 tpi thread, very fine for such a large diameter. This leaves me in a real quandary. I have to get this piece out because it's the adjustment for the pinion and I'm out of ideas. I also tried spreading the end...there is a slit in it...but cast iron is very brittle so I wasn't going to get too aggressive. The last resort is to cut it out and make a new one but I decided to sleep on it and post this in case one of you has another idea. I'd slip a hacksaw into the gap and cut it through in two or three places but once I start on that, there is no turning back.

 

 

Oh...and the blacking on the switch plate is working... slowly but it's starting to look as I want it. I got the formula for the blacking solution from a post on the Practical Machinist web site. It's easy to make and use but the fellow who posted it did not say how long it takes.

Edited June 21, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Laughing Coyote]

Joe,

Can you put a wedge in the slot on the torque tube and see if it takes spring tension off of the pieces inside.  Just putting it out there.

[JV Puleo]

I tried that but I'm afraid of over stressing the cast iron so I didn't press it too much. I know I can make the the inner piece...if I break the torque tube I'll be in a real pickle. I don't know how I'd go about replicating that...in fact, if it came to that I'd have to make one that didn't look like the original and it would be a huge amount of work.

Edited June 21, 2022 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[ipeeforward]

Joe,
How big was the socket wrench you used ? I would be using a 1/2” breaker bar if not 3/4” or do you think your spanner pins would shear off ? Dare you try a gentle bit of heat on the torque tube ?

 

[JV Puleo]

I was using a long 1/2" breaker bar with a six point impact socket. I put enough pressure on it to break the Locktite free — the first time that has ever happened. Then I put a lock nut on the bolt and tried again...it still didn't budge. I thought about heat ... I'd have to apply it to the threaded portion but with those fine threads you have to be very careful. I may give that a try tomorrow in any case and use the propane torch (which won't get hot enough to wreck the threads).

[TonyAus]

Dare I suggest that the two parts might be held together by a left hand thread?

[JV Puleo]

10 hours ago, TonyAus said:

Dare I suggest that the two parts might be held together by a left hand thread?

I checked that. actually, this is my own fault. I unsrewed it years ago trying to get the pinion out of the  tube and I don't remember that it was a LH thread. If I'd left it alone, I'd be ok. But, when you don't know how something is put together - or even what the parts look like and there is no place to find that information odd things like this are bound to happen.