Beemon Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 I filed the claim on Thursday. Friday I was going to have my girlfriend serve him at work, but he doesn't work at that machine shop anymore (I wonder why??). We checked his address with the King County Parcel Viewer and he is still at the residency of his shop where he did my work, so now I have to either contact the Sheriff Department or hire someone from the court. They said I could also mail it to him, but I would much rather have it handed to him (or his wife since she's on the papers, too) in person. Does anyone know if you can pull a 322 with the torque converter attached to the flexplate? Or does it have to be unbolted? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Torque converter must be unhooked. You can only get the torque converter off the trans by removing the front cover of the TC. There's a bolt in the center behind that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 That's what I thought... I'm at a cross roads here. The junkyard 56 doesn't have a rear end so we need to pull the engine and trans at the same time. The block is frozen shut, so I don't think I'm ever really going to get them apart unless I can break the engine loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 Why do you need that junkyard engine and transmission. Sorry, I am easily confused. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 Crankshaft and connecting rods, and a stock piston to compare my new piston to. I don't need the transmission at all, it has to come out to get the engine out. It's basically become a giant mess... Matt has a crank, but no rods, so if you know anyone with rods... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 No rods but I do have a '54 crank that's been ground .010. (all 322cranks are the same) Yours for shipping cost if you want it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 I'm wondering if a 327 Chevy connecting rod can be made to work since they have similar stroke? Has anyone ever done connecting rod mods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, Beemon said: I'm wondering if a 327 Chevy connecting rod can be made to work since they have similar stroke? Has anyone ever done connecting rod mods? I'd try to avoid mods like that if I were you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 The KEY thing about connecting rod interchanges is "Center-to-Center Length" of the rod, NOT that the engines might have common strokes. That Ctr-to-Ctr dimension, if different, would require a piston pin placement to compensate for the additional or lesser length to have the same compression ratio. The normal Chevy small block Ctr-to-Ctr dimension is 5.70". There were some variations which had 6.00" dimensions for racing motors, but with matching pistons. Then, the other consideration is the weight of the rod. That item will determine how the engine balances. Piston rings are a little different in that they only need the same size bore diameter and width/depth of the grooves in the piston they fit into. Why the sudden desire to acquire a hoard of 322 engines/parts, if you already have ONE which is a builder? Mirroring Mr. Earl's thoughts on this. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Beemon said: I'm wondering if a 327 Chevy connecting rod can be made to work since they have similar stroke? Has anyone ever done connecting rod mods? Unless it's aftermarket parts, arent the Buick rods forged units and the Chev rods not? You might want to use the description "clinch" bolt 56 type rods, as the Buick bean counters may have started using those rods in late 55 like I seen with so many updates starting "midyear" with Buick. Might broaden search. Good luck Ben! Edited June 11, 2017 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 11, 2017 Author Share Posted June 11, 2017 7 hours ago, NTX5467 said: Why the sudden desire to acquire a hoard of 322 engines/parts, if you already have ONE which is a builder? Mirroring Mr. Earl's thoughts on this. The block I bought was just a bare block. I bought it before I got into the guts of my engine. Look back a few photos of my connecting rods, they took meat off the side of the rod and didn't round the edges. This causes two problems: micro surface cracking at the hard edges creates excessive stress points at the base of the rod, and where the meat was taken off weakens the rod by necking it at the base. The rebuilder also bushed the wrist pin end without drilling an oiling hole. I'm clueless as to how they came from the factory as to whether or not the original setup was free floating rods or not, but I was told if they were bushed, they need the oiling passage. And of course this leads to the crank. If the rods were done up for max weight loss, rather than normal balance, then what did they do to the crank? I have no idea if it was balanced with the flex plate and harmonic balancer or not, nor do I really have a way to check. So now I'm on the hunt for a crank and rods, which usually leads to a complete engine again. I'm sure I could reuse mine, but it wouldn't feel right to do it wrong twice to the old girl. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 On that locked engine that needs the tranny removed, you will get the most turning force using a large pry bar between the ring gear and the block. If no joy, then a chisel and your BFH on the pistons will free it up. Don't make a video of all that 'grunt work'...it makes me tired! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 Or, dropping the trans with just the crank ( not the crank assembly) attached. This would probably mean removing the locating dowel pins for the trans. Not sure if those can be tapped out or if they would have to be drilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 11, 2017 Author Share Posted June 11, 2017 On the junkyard motor, the end with the woodruff key has been exposed for some time and is really pitted. Is this going to be a problem for the harmonic balancer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Beemon said: On the junkyard motor, the end with the woodruff key has been exposed for some time and is really pitted. Is this going to be a problem for the harmonic balancer? No really. The balancer is essentially clamped to the front of the crankshaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 There are basically two ways to balance crankshafts. You drill a hole and add "Mallory Metal" into the hole for more weight, which is very visible . . . or you shave weight off, which is also very visible as it is in contrast to the normal finish of the crankshaft counterweights' normal appearance. If those "flaky" connecting rods lasted as long as they did without breaking or cracking, they're probably strong enough to last longer, I suspect. I do understand the "not wanting to take any chances" orientation. IF there were any weight changes in the flex plate, you'd see "foreign" pieces of flat metal welded to the plate. You can tell as they are not the neatest thing in the world AND will have a different appearance of the weld than the factory welds. Plus being much fresher. IF the factory pistons had full floating piston pins, you can see that too! Rather than the piston pin being basically even with each side of the piston pin boss on the piston, they will be shorter in length to accommodate the locking mechanism to keep the piston pin from sliding to the sides as they did. The connecting rod "swings" on the pressed-pin piston pin, so I might be incorrect to inquire why that one does not need an oil hole and the bushed rod end does? Just curious. The pressed pin rod has to move on the piston pin, too. and is installed oily onto the piston pin. There's LOTS of oil slinging around in the crankcase as the motor runs, with a vortex created by the spinning crankshaft counterweights! The OTHER way to remove weight from crankshaft counterweights is "knife-edging". In doing this, the leading edge of the spinning counterweight is sharpened to help it "slice" through the vortex of oil mixture, decreasing the power loss of the counterweights' impacting the oil droplets. This has to go with corresponding weight reductions of piston, piston pin, and connecting rod weights . . . unless Mallory Metal is added. In some respects, it might be time to find a nice 401 and make it look like a 322 on the outside . . . provided there are no really onerous mechanical fitment issues? 6.00" Chevy connecting rods are not OEM per se, but might be available in the GMPerformanceParts book and from engine race parts vendors. ONE main difference, though, is the piston pin dia is smaller than on Buick Nailheads. If buying aluminum race connecting rods, you can specify the piston pin dia you desire. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) Are 55 rods the same as 56? https://spokane.craigslist.org/pts/6142124289.html Willis, I have teased the idea of a 401 but then I need to redo the whole drive train and I can't go that far. Edit: Just found this: https://wenatchee.craigslist.org/pts/6126552591.html Inquiring about it now, not sure if it runs but it's together, so maybe hopeful quick turn around? What seems fair for an offer? The guy in Canada wanted $400 for a complete engine, does that sound fair? This is what I know, engine has sat outside for a while (not sure how long) and is probably siezed. The heads have never been off, only the water pump. He said the timing cover bolts and crossover bolts have been removed but they have never been removed from the engine (harmonic balancer still on). No carb. He says it's a 55 but the timing cover and valve covers and intake say 56 to me. Edit: Confirmed with casting number on the head, this is a 56 engine. What are the chances that it will run decent if it's unstuck? Pull the spark plugs, soak and gently loosen up? Gently waiting on some much needed advice... Edited June 12, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Beemon said: Are 55 rods the same as 56? They will interchange, but early 55, 54, 53 had a clamp bolt at the wrist pin end and would need a compatible wrist pin with a groove for the bolt. Both engines must be assumed to be good for parts only. Don't count on getting them running. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Beemon said: Are 55 rods the same as 56? https://spokane.craigslist.org/pts/6142124289.html Willis, I have teased the idea of a 401 but then I need to redo the whole drive train and I can't go that far. Edit: Just found this: https://wenatchee.craigslist.org/pts/6126552591.html Inquiring about it now, not sure if it runs but it's together, so maybe hopeful quick turn around? What seems fair for an offer? The guy in Canada wanted $400 for a complete engine, does that sound fair? This is what I know, engine has sat outside for a while (not sure how long) and is probably siezed. The heads have never been off, only the water pump. He said the timing cover bolts and crossover bolts have been removed but they have never been removed from the engine (harmonic balancer still on). No carb. He says it's a 55 but the timing cover and valve covers and intake say 56 to me. Edit: Confirmed with casting number on the head, this is a 56 engine. What are the chances that it will run decent if it's unstuck? Pull the spark plugs, soak and gently loosen up? Gently waiting on some much needed advice... quite honestly, other than that intake, it's worth scrap price. It's a lot of work un sticking and rebuilding. The last few complete nailheads that I've bought have run me about $250 (all non- running or stuck) plus $100 to ship them! Edited June 12, 2017 by wndsofchng06 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Beemon said: Are 55 rods the same as 56? as far as I know connecting rods for late '55 and 56 are same ie both have the pressed in wrist pins instead of the earlier '53-'54 pinch bolts. Ben, are you interested in the crankshaft I offered several posts back. I can pull it out of the barn loft and take pictures if needed. I got it from someone doing a rebuild but changed "horses" mid stream. Also, I have a complete 322 short block (incl complete heads) from a 56 Century showing around 50K miles on the odometer and believe not to be second time around. I have not mentioned it before as I know shipping would be the dickens. Also I am not the best at determining condition of used internal engine parts (right KAD36?) and would not want to possibly and certainly unknowingly exasperate your already frustrating engine build experience. If I can help in any way however, let me know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Beemon said: Edit: Just found this: https://wenatchee.craigslist.org/pts/6126552591.html Actually considering the water hose clamp on top of that rocker cover and groove in the manifold I'm bettin that is a '56 engine vs a 55 as stated in the ad. If it turns, $400, if not $200 at most. The intake is worth $125-150. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Beemon said: Are 55 rods the same as 56? https://spokane.craigslist.org/pts/6142124289.html Willis, I have teased the idea of a 401 but then I need to redo the whole drive train and I can't go that far. Edit: Just found this: https://wenatchee.craigslist.org/pts/6126552591.html Inquiring about it now, not sure if it runs but it's together, so maybe hopeful quick turn around? What seems fair for an offer? The guy in Canada wanted $400 for a complete engine, does that sound fair? This is what I know, engine has sat outside for a while (not sure how long) and is probably siezed. The heads have never been off, only the water pump. He said the timing cover bolts and crossover bolts have been removed but they have never been removed from the engine (harmonic balancer still on). No carb. He says it's a 55 but the timing cover and valve covers and intake say 56 to me. Edit: Confirmed with casting number on the head, this is a 56 engine. What are the chances that it will run decent if it's unstuck? Pull the spark plugs, soak and gently loosen up? Gently waiting on some much needed advice... If it were me, and I was faced with leaving the car disabled, I would try to get it running. If its good, it still wont be like a fresh engine. I have driven lots of miles in worn out old cars. You have to check the oil a lot. Everyone basically did that back then anyway. If it has a lot of blowby, it might smoke out of the draft tube, etc. It's gonna need tlc. If it has any burned valves, you would have to pull a head or heads and fix them. You just cant work around that problem any other way. On the other hand, maybe this is bad advice because if you need the parts in this thing for your rebuild, they would be tied up. And then again... back on the other hand.... the biggest danger with a project car like this is taking it apart and never getting it back together because life threw you a curve. Were you able to find out anything much about the engine's history? Why was it pulled? If it was a runner when pulled, and it has not been sitting outside, it might be ok. If it sat outside without that carb hole covered up with something it aint gonna be pretty inside. On the other hand, if they covered the hole up with a board or something it might be fine. I live within about15 miles, and the climate here is nothing like Kent. It is dry here. Stuff can sit around a long time and be fine, on the other hand, it gets extremely cold, so anything that did fill up with water is gonna be cracked and broken from frost. If you need someone local to do anything shoot me a PM. I'm sort of tied up today, but I'll be around tomorrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 1 hour ago, MrEarl said: Actually considering the water hose clamp on top of that rocker cover and groove in the manifold I'm bettin that is a '56 engine vs a 55 as stated in the ad. If it turns, $400, if not $200 at most. The intake is worth $125-150. Looks like Brent wants to sell. Not much information in the ad so I'd say $200 max in any condition except with a cracked block. Then $75.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 The seller claims that the engine was pulled from a project as non running, has been out for at least ten years hiding under a cherry bin. Im not saying it will run, but there's a chance. I offered $250 so we'll see. Doing a valve job is no big deal to me at this point. If it's really stuck, I'll give it the marvel mystery oil treatment in the cylinders until it unseats. Even if it's just to get the car rolling again, not necessarily driving it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 Sold for $250. This will probably be a better rebuild candidate, anyways. I'm an optimistic, but also a realist. I'll check it out on Wednesday. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 So I went to pick it up today because I couldn't wait. I took out some paid time off to go on a 5 hour adventure. The good: cylinder walls have minor surface rust, no damage to the pistons. The bad: sludge everywhere, the motor was without a flexplate, oil pan and carburetor, plus it's stuck. While this isn't a bad thing, I found out why the engine was sidelined - they pulled it, found out that a valve was stuck, and then dropped in a SBC.... it's also filled with bugs, lots of spiders, but otherwise dry. So my dad and I are going to make a frankenstein 322 for the time being so the car can be moved under it's own power, not so much to be driven. We're going to dismantle the two sets of virgin heads we have and put together the best of both in terms of springs, valves, etc. Cam and lifters we'll pull from the running motor. Rotating assembly will be from the new motor. Everything else will be pulled from the running motor. Depending on how money flow goes, we'll consider new springs, cam/lifters. A new timing chain is a must at this point. As soon as the block is unstuck, it's going to the pressure washer to clean out the lifter galley and below. The block is soaking in a concoction of marvel mystery oil and PB blaster. All bearings will be checked with appropriate plastigauges. It's not how I wanted this to go, but it's a realistic goal to get the car moved out of it's current spot, and we'll be able to drive it up on a trailer to take it to the machinist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Confused: running motor? New motor? Seems you have mentioned at least 4 you were going to get? 8 hours ago, Beemon said: drive it up on a trailer to take it to the machinist. You take engines, not cars to machinist? Any engine you spend time and money to get running and installed should be capable of everyday use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 The running motor was the one that was in the car, the new engine is the one I just picked up, and then there's the bare block I also picked up. Sorry for confusing. We talked to the machinist and he said he'd store the car there while he did the motor so we caneed assemble and break it in on the spot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 "Also I am not the best at determining condition of used internal engine parts (right KAD36?)" You do great - it's the fussy buyer trying to figure out what they're building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAD36 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 6 hours ago, Beemon said: The running motor was the one that was in the car, the new engine is the one I just picked up, and then there's the bare block I also picked up. Sorry for confusing. We talked to the machinist and he said he'd store the car there while he did the motor so we caneed assemble and break it in on the spot. I lost the bubble too - too many engines, heads, pistons camshaft sand stuck stuff. Hey Rocky, watch me pull an engine block out of my hat. Nothing up my sleeve...Presto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 To clarify what's going on right now, cam and lifters from the running engine are being salvaged, as well as any other part that is OK for use. The crank, rods and pistons from the new engine will be checked and salvaged. Then we're going to take everything and stick it in the clean bare block and just rering it for now. As far as the heads go, I have the really nice clean heads from Idaho that came with the bare block and the heads I just bought. The heads from Idaho had two burned valves and one intake valve where the stem was beat up by the rocker arm. I'm going to scavenge the two exhaust and one intake from the new set of heads I purchased and reuse the springs. Money flow after June is cut off for the university. Basically all I have left in my budget is crank polish, bearings and maybe springs. There's a 322 truck pump on ebay right now that I'm eyeing so I can just bolt on my old timing cover and not have to worry about a bunch of other things. I will have my cam measured and checked out, but the cam isn't what failed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 9 hours ago, Beemon said: There's a 322 truck pump on ebay right now that I'm eyeing That pump will need new diaphragms before usable. Kit below... The kit below will also work to rebuild just the fuel portion of the dome top 56 fuel pump. Then And Now Automotive 447 Washington St. Weymouth, Ma. 02188 781-335-8860 part # FPA219 Price was $70 four years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 Does anyone have a source for crank and cam sprockets? Both sets of mine are worn in. If they're okay to use, I'll reuse them, but all I can find is 364/401/425 stuff. Will they work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Beemon said: 364/401/425 stuff. Will they work? no 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttotired Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Your trying to screw a motor together on the cheap? Why are you worried about timing chains? If you had one that was working before, it will work again 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 What about main and rod bearings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Use those too if they are compatible with the Crankshaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 last question, but what about piston rings? standard or .006 oversized? I can't afford to hone the bare block. It has a small ridge at the top and I was thinking of installing the pistons from the bottom. I really am ignorant about this guys so please slap me if I'm doing something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosage Chavis Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Beemon said: I was thinking of installing the pistons from the bottom. I really am ignorant about this guys so please slap me if I'm doing something wrong. I would install the pistons from the top using a ring compressor. I don't think the ridges will hurt the rings upon installation. Edited June 15, 2017 by Kosage Chavis (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 43 minutes ago, Kosage Chavis said: I don't think the ridges will hurt the rings upon installation. Don't do it. remove the ridge. The new rings will hit the ridge and break the piston land. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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