colder than the Arctic Circle!

[Seafoam65]

                  When I bought my 65  Riviera, the A/C was not working and there wasn't any freon in the

system.  A quick check determined that the front seal on the original compressor which was still on the car was leaking like a fire hydrant. At my shop we tried a new seal with the same result so I put off the

A/C project while I searched for an NOS new replacement GM compressor, because  the remans always

make noise don't cool very well and throw oil out the front seal. GM quit selling new A6 compressors about seven years ago. The last decade that they sold them, they were not made by Harrison, but by a 

company called Alma Products Corporation. You can spot these compressors by the name Alma Products on the A/C compressor decal. These compressors were quieter, longer lasting, cooled better

than the original GM A6's and they didn't sling oil all over your detailed engine compartment. For months

I searched for a new Alma Products compressor with no luck then I got lucky. At a local Saturday morning car gathering that I go to for breakfast most Saturday's, I was telling a group of car nuts that I

was looking for an Alma compressor, when one of them announced that he had one that he bought a few years ago for a Firebird he was restoring  that he  never installed and it was sitting on a shelf in his garage! He sold it to me for 200.00. My car was converted to a cycling clutch system by the previous owner and the Suction throttling valve is no longer on my car. I put on the Alma Products compressor, charged the system with 3.75 lbs of real R12 freon, and it gets so cold inside the car that your lips turn

blue in about two minutes. The compressor is so quiet you can't hear it running and no oil leaks from

the front!  I would have to say that the A/C works better than the A/C's on a 2016 model.....it is that cold!

All that's left to do is install my new reproduction compressor decals, and stamp the compressor with my repro inspection "OK" stamp and I'm good to go!

 

[petelempert]

Very cool. PRL
 

[lrlforfun]

OK Winston: I recently did my 65 and used the original stv system. My a/c guy checked the temperature at 38. Out of curiosity, what is your temp and is there a factory recommended/suggested temperature?

 

BTW, these cars are really nice when repaired to the stock specs. A few tweaks like yours on the a/c or a perhaps a dual master....no prob but....when people do things such as replacing carbs with the Edlebrock (not that Edlebrock is bad) because they don't understand that when working correctly stock it is excellent....that's when a whole-lotta things start going South and I don't mean the Southern part of the country either!

 

Mitch

[Seafoam65]

                       Mitch, I'll check the temp next time I drive it.  The big advantage to the cycling clutch setup is that if you

get a restriction in the system or the refrigerant is too low the compressor will be shut off, protecting it from damage. My car

looks stock other than the suction throttling valve isn't in the line by the firewall....very subtle change and not noticeable to the

casual observer.

[Guest Dale in Vancouver]

 Hi Winston, looks good, especially as it still  has the muffler, which seems to go missing regularly. Could you tell me what was involved to convert to a cycling clutch.     Cheers,   Dale.

[Seafoam65]

                    I'm not exactly sure what was involved and have no idea where the parts for the conversion came from.....it looks

like it was done a long time ago. There is a tube with an orifice in it where the suction throttling valve would go, and on the underside of the evaporator box pretty much out of sight there is a cycling switch that the wire feeding the compressor clutch goes in and out of, and

it appears that this switch has a thermostatic bulb that goes up inside the evaporator case to monitor the temperature of the evaporator, and this switch cycles the compressor off if the evaporator starts to ice up. I have seen no such setup for sale anywhere.

If this setup ever develops a bad part, I would probably have to convert it back to stock to get it working.......hopefully that won't ever happen.

[RivNut]

Old Air Products makes an STV update kit which appears that it does the same thing that has been done to your car.

 

http://www.oldairproducts.com/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=3670&osCsid=32bf0d8e061ebebb1108d82909e79337

 

$76.50

 

I think there are a few ROA members who have made this modification to their cars. 

 

I'd like more info on the Alma compressor.

 

Ed

[Guest Dale in Vancouver]

  Thanks for the reply Winston.      Ed, I found a couple of the Alma units on Ebay, not NOS, but they were fitted to various models of Mercedes. No doubt others must have used them.  Thanks for the heads up re. the OAP update for the STV.

  Cheers,   Dale.

[Turbinator]

On 2/18/2016 at 5:45 PM, lrlforfun said:

OK Winston: I recently did my 65 and used the original stv system. My a/c guy checked the temperature at 38. Out of curiosity, what is your temp and is there a factory recommended/suggested temperature?

 

BTW, these cars are really nice when repaired to the stock specs. A few tweaks like yours on the a/c or a perhaps a dual master....no prob but....when people do things such as replacing carbs with the Edlebrock (not that Edlebrock is bad) because they don't understand that when working correctly stock it is excellent....that's when a whole-lotta things start going South and I don't mean the Southern part of the country either!

 

Mitch

Mitch, I’ve been struggling with my AC on my 63 Riviera for the last three summers. To the point- I had my STV rebuilt by a company with an excellent reputation. I’ve never had ac air out the vents colder 65 degrees F. Jim Cannon has walked me through the Alma cpmressor, new drier, hoses, vacuum actuator replacemts, vacuum switch replacement, and staying with R12. After pressure testing and taking the vacuum off the STV it was determined the piston is stuck in the STV.  Here is my burning question: Is it prudent to change over to the electronic replacement of the STV?  Your advice is to the point, let me have it. THANK YOU!

 

On 2/18/2016 at 5:45 PM, lrlforfun said:

OK Winston: I recently did my 65 and used the original stv system. My a/c guy checked the temperature at 38. Out of curiosity, what is your temp and is there a factory recommended/suggested temperature?

 

BTW, these cars are really nice when repaired to the stock specs. A few tweaks like yours on the a/c or a perhaps a dual master....no prob but....when people do things such as replacing carbs with the Edlebrock (not that Edlebrock is bad) because they don't understand that when working correctly stock it is excellent....that's when a whole-lotta things start going South and I don't mean the Southern part of the country either!

 

Mitch

 

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

After pressure testing and taking the vacuum off the STV it was determined the piston is stuck in the STV.  Here is my burning question: Is it prudent to change over to the electronic replacement of the STV?

 

Would that be the STV that you just had rebuilt?  If so, you might concentrate your efforts on getting that fixed properly.

[Turbinator]

On 8/11/2018 at 12:10 PM, KongaMan said:

 

Would that be the STV that you just had rebuilt?  If so, you might concentrate your efforts on getting that fixed properly.

Mr. Konga Man, if they couldn’t /wouldn’t get it right the first time what are the chances the builder get right the second time? I am calling the company tomorrow. Hopefully, they’ll do something favorable.

RRB

[Turbinator]

On 2/18/2016 at 5:45 PM, lrlforfun said:

OK Winston: I recently did my 65 and used the original stv system. My a/c guy checked the temperature at 38. Out of curiosity, what is your temp and is there a factory recommended/suggested temperature?

 

BTW, these cars are really nice when repaired to the stock specs. A few tweaks like yours on the a/c or a perhaps a dual master....no prob but....when people do things such as replacing carbs with the Edlebrock (not that Edlebrock is bad) because they don't understand that when working correctly stock it is excellent....that's when a whole-lotta things start going South and I don't mean the Southern part of the country either!

 

Mitch

Mitch/ been a year since my STV was rebuilt on my 63 and I don’t have cold air yet. Found out my rebuilt STV has the piston stuck. Why would the piston go bad without ever contributing to cold air coming out of the vents? Are the STV’s unreliable or a poor design? The aggravation level is high and I’m out a buck or two on the project. What do I have to lose going with the electronic STV eliminator?

Many Thanks

Red Riviera Bob

[Seafoam65]

You do actually have something to lose Bob.......with the STV eliminated, you can't control the temperature other than by

turning down the blower or turning up the blower. Here in Texas, when I deem it hot enough to use A/C it needs to be

going full blast anyway. If it's not real hot outside I just roll down the driver's window and open the vents in the cowl.

[Turbinator]

Winston, here we are a year later, Aug. 2019. My 1963 AC working fine regarding keeping me cool when ai turn on the AC. After 3 failed attempt with rebuilt STV for the 63 I bought the STV update kit from Old Air in Texas.

The AC is running so well I’m trying to find out why it is running right.  I can never hear hear the clutch on the Alma A6 compressor engage or disengage with the STV update. I’m going to test the compressor with a light and run the light up under the hood and up to the windshield. Others who are in the know have suggested I do this to see if the clutch engages or disengages by viewing the light bulb that has wire lead to the compressor switch. Hopefully, the A6 will  cycle on and off and I have an answer to my question.

ill report my findings.

Turbinator

[RivNut]

Don't be looking a gift horse in the mouth.  

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, Turbinator said:

The AC is running so well I’m trying to find out why it is running right.

 

If it ain't broke...

 

5 hours ago, Turbinator said:

I can never hear hear the clutch on the Alma A6 compressor engage or disengage with the STV update.

 

Based on my understanding of the replacement kits, they eliminate the STV by removing the guts, essentially making it another section of hose (the valve body is retained just for looks; it could be replaced with a simple union).  The "brains" of the beast appear to be nothing more than a thermal sensor connected to a relay.  The sensor is attached to the evaporator outlet.  Once the temperature drops below a certain point, the sensor trips the relay and the compressor shuts off.  When the temperature goes back up, the relay engages and the compressor turns on again.  The limitation of this system is that you can't control the air temperature; the AC is either on full blast or off.

[PWB]

Soooo,

 

who provides functional Alma compressors now? I’m guessing Elvis left the building 

 

 

 Thanks 

Edited July 29, 2019 by PWB (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Old air products has A6 compressors.  Don't know if they're the Alma rebuilt units though - there's no mention of "rebuilt" in their description.  Single or double pulley, terminal clocked to whatever position you choose.

 

 

[Seafoam65]

Alma still makes brand new compressors. Nobody advertises them on the internet so nobody knows they are available.

You can't buy them directly from Alma, you have to purchase through one of their dealers.These compressors are identical externally to the original A6

compressors but they have improved internals. The two dealers I have bought them from are AIR PARTS in Ocala Florida, phone number (352)-509-3281

and COMFORT AIR in Arlington, Tx., phone number(214)-412-2203. The part number for the compressor for the 63-65 Riviera is 51-16244A. It comes with the two groove pulleys like the originals. You will need to repaint them as Alma paints their compressors flat black instead of 60 degree gloss black. What I do when I install one is leave the externals as is till I install it and make sure it works, 

then  remove it, peel off the Alma decal, paint it the right gloss black and install a repro Harrison decal on the compressor and reinstall it, I do this to protect myself in case the part is defective. (So far I've never gotten a bad one). If memory serves, these compressors cost about 500.00. I have new Alma compressors on my 70 Chevelle SS, 69 GTO, 79 Trans Am and 65 Riviera. All will freeze you out of the car year after year. The ones on my GTO and Trans Am are twenty years old and still cool great, sound quiet, and have never leaked out any freon. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[telriv]

Now that's a testament on the reliability I've been telling everyone about for years!!!!

[PWB]

What?!

I reside in Ocala. Maybe I can get a guided tour.

 Thanks all - great info 👍 

 

PS: how many (14oz) cans of R12 you figure I need for a ‘67?

 

 Thanks 

Edited July 29, 2019 by PWB (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

Most likely five cans will be needed to get to a clear sight glass.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

7 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

The ones on my GTO and Trans Am are twenty years old and still cool great, sound quiet, and have never leaked out any freon. 

 

It's probably useful to note that the original A6 was designed to leak slightly at the main seal, as the oil that came out would lubricate the seal.

 

5 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

Most likely five cans will be needed to get to a clear sight glass.

 

OTOH, a system can be fully charged and still have a few bubbles visible in the glass.

[Turbinator]

On 7/28/2019 at 8:01 PM, KongaMan said:

 

If it ain't broke...

 

 

Based on my understanding of the replacement kits, they eliminate the STV by removing the guts, essentially making it another section of hose (the valve body is retained just for looks; it could be replaced with a simple union).  The "brains" of the beast appear to be nothing more than a thermal sensor connected to a relay.  The sensor is attached to the evaporator outlet.  Once the temperature drops below a certain point, the sensor trips the relay and the compressor shuts off.  When the temperature goes back up, the relay engages and the compressor turns on again.  The limitation of this system is that you can't control the air temperature; the AC is either on full blast or off.

Well, not exactly. The update kit, not eliminator STV eliminator uses the half of the STV. The update kit stops the piston from working The STV has a block off plate inserted where it connected with bolts that have Allen heads on them. All

the remaining parts of the STV are used.

You are able to get cold air all along where the  cold temp slides back and forth. Same goes for the fan motor.

So, No... you can regulate how much and how cold the air is.

 

i rigged up a light bulb that is connected to the power side of the compressor. I ran a wire from the compressor to the light bulb taped on my windshield. I blew the fuse on the blower motor trying to get the connections more stable. B/4 I blew the blower fuse the light did come on.. The burning question is will the AC clutch disengage and then engage when the STV update switch tells it to engage.

ill report my finding Tuesday by midday.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 7/28/2019 at 5:37 PM, RivNut said:

Don't be looking a gift horse in the mouth.  

Ed, all I’m trying to do st this point is determine if the AC clutch goes OFF and on.

Bob

Edited July 30, 2019 by Turbinator (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, Turbinator said:

Well, not exactly. The update kit, not eliminator STV eliminator uses the half of the STV. The update kit stops the piston from working The STV has a block off plate inserted where it connected with bolts that have Allen heads on them. All the remaining parts of the STV are used.

Take out the piston, and it's just a fancy piece of pipe.

 

The "block off plate" replaces the piston/diaphragm assembly and seals the valve body to keep the refrigerant from leaking out.  Remove that assembly, and you don't need the main spring, either.  The thing is, you may not even need to gut the STV to use the eliminator kit.  If you back off the diaphragm all the way, and the spring pressure might be so low that the piston won't be working anyway.  Hook up the new sensor and you're done.

 

You do need to make sure that the diaphragm stills holds vacuum or plug the vacuum line whatever you do.  See Fig 11-49 and 11-89 in the 63 service manual.

 

1 hour ago, Turbinator said:

You are able to get cold air all along where the  cold temp slides back and forth. Same goes for the fan motor.

So, No... you can regulate how much and how cold the air is.

 

With a stock system, you don't get cold air all along the slider's travel.  You get cold air at one end; at the other, it's slightly cool.  With the eliminator, it's either on or off.  You can change the fan setting, but you have no control over the evaporator temperature.

 

That is, the temperature selector is inoperative.  That is different than the stock system, and it is different from a normal cycling clutch system as well.  On a purpose-designed cycling clutch system, the temperature control affects how the sensor data is interpreted.  Slide it all the way to cold, and the compressor kicks on when the evaporator temperature reaches 30°.  Slide to it warm, and the compressor doesn't kick on until 45°.  (NB: those numbers are examples only to illustrate operation.  In practice, they may be quite different.) On the stock system, the temperature control is a vacuum module; it controls the temperature by modulating the vacuum to the STV.  Remove that functionality, and there is no interface between the temperature control and the outlet temperature.  Test it yourself: engage the AC and put a thermometer in your center outlet.  Note the reading.  Push the TEMP slider all the way down and note the reading.  Did it change?

[Seafoam65]

8 hours ago, KongaMan said:

Take out the piston, and it's just a fancy piece of pipe.

 

The "block off plate" replaces the piston/diaphragm assembly and seals the valve body to keep the refrigerant from leaking out.  Remove that assembly, and you don't need the main spring, either.  The thing is, you may not even need to gut the STV to use the eliminator kit.  If you back off the diaphragm all the way, and the spring pressure might be so low that the piston won't be working anyway.  Hook up the new sensor and you're done.

 

You do need to make sure that the diaphragm stills holds vacuum or plug the vacuum line whatever you do.  See Fig 11-49 and 11-89 in the 63 service manual.

 

 

With a stock system, you don't get cold air all along the slider's travel.  You get cold air at one end; at the other, it's slightly cool.  With the eliminator, it's either on or off.  You can change the fan setting, but you have no control over the evaporator temperature.

 

That is, the temperature selector is inoperative.  That is different than the stock system, and it is different from a normal cycling clutch system as well.  On a purpose-designed cycling clutch system, the temperature control affects how the sensor data is interpreted.  Slide it all the way to cold, and the compressor kicks on when the evaporator temperature reaches 30°.  Slide to it warm, and the compressor doesn't kick on until 45°.  (NB: those numbers are examples only to illustrate operation.  In practice, they may be quite different.) On the stock system, the temperature control is a vacuum module; it controls the temperature by modulating the vacuum to the STV.  Remove that functionality, and there is no interface between the temperature control and the outlet temperature.  Test it yourself: engage the AC and put a thermometer in your center outlet.  Note the reading.  Push the TEMP slider all the way down and note the reading.  Did it change?

Agreed..........on the  early  Rivieras with the STV, the STV controls the temp of the evaporator, instead of regulating coldness with a temp door

that lets warm air mix in with the cold air, so with the STV eliminator, the system is Max cold all the time. I find this to be fine as I only use the A/C when it gets up above 90 outside. In cooler temps I enjoy rolling the windows down on my old cars .

[KongaMan]

3 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

In cooler temps I enjoy rolling the windows down on my old cars .

I don't know why I bother keeping AC functional, as I never use it.   Folks seem to forget about the vents in these cars.  Open them up, crack the rear windows, and you get plenty of airflow without the noise or buffeting of having the windows down at high speed.

[Turbinator]

On 7/30/2019 at 1:45 AM, KongaMan said:

Take out the piston, and it's just a fancy piece of pipe.

 

The "block off plate" replaces the piston/diaphragm assembly and seals the valve body to keep the refrigerant from leaking out.  Remove that assembly, and you don't need the main spring, either.  The thing is, you may not even need to gut the STV to use the eliminator kit.  If you back off the diaphragm all the way, and the spring pressure might be so low that the piston won't be working anyway.  Hook up the new sensor and you're done.

 

You do need to make sure that the diaphragm stills holds vacuum or plug the vacuum line whatever you do.  See Fig 11-49 and 11-89 in the 63 service manual.

 

 

With a stock system, you don't get cold air all along the slider's travel.  You get cold air at one end; at the other, it's slightly cool.  With the eliminator, it's either on or off.  You can change the fan setting, but you have no control over the evaporator temperature.

 

That is, the temperature selector is inoperative.  That is different than the stock system, and it is different from a normal cycling clutch system as well.  On a purpose-designed cycling clutch system, the temperature control affects how the sensor data is interpreted.  Slide it all the way to cold, and the compressor kicks on when the evaporator temperature reaches 30°.  Slide to it warm, and the compressor doesn't kick on until 45°.  (NB: those numbers are examples only to illustrate operation.  In practice, they may be quite different.) On the stock system, the temperature control is a vacuum module; it controls the temperature by modulating the vacuum to the STV.  Remove that functionality, and there is no interface between the temperature control and the outlet temperature.  Test it yourself: engage the AC and put a thermometer in your center outlet.  Note the reading.  Push the TEMP slider all the way down and note the reading.  Did it change?

Mr Konga Man, I’ll get another thermometer for AC and test as you have suggested. At this point I’m happy to have cold air on these hot and humid days.

Turbinator

[Bill Stoneberg]

On 7/30/2019 at 12:21 PM, KongaMan said:

I don't know why I bother keeping AC functional, as I never use it.   Folks seem to forget about the vents in these cars.  Open them up, crack the rear windows, and you get plenty of airflow without the noise or buffeting of having the windows down at high speed.

Kongaman,  i dont know what part of the country you are in, but here in Central Texas opening vents and windows just makes you hotter when the temrature is 95 +.

I enjoy the fresh aire too, but it sure is nice to have AC also.

 

[KongaMan]

2 hours ago, Bill Stoneberg said:

Kongaman,  i dont know what part of the country you are in, but here in Central Texas opening vents and windows just makes you hotter when the temrature is 95 +.

I enjoy the fresh aire too, but it sure is nice to have AC also.

 

Well, I don't live in Texas -- but I did, and the Riviera was my DD for most of that time, and I rarely used the AC then.  I find it's more useful in midwest humidity than Texas heat.  Of course, there are times when conditions are such that there is no plan B; AC is the only solution.

[65VerdeGS]

Well, all this A/C talk is a bit academic to me, as my Riv doesn't have it.

 

Here in the Pacific Northwest, having A/C isn't critical.  We rarely get so hot and humid that it's needed.  But of course it would be nice to have!

 

I find the ventilation system on the non-A/C early Rivieras to be excellent.  Just slide the ventilation levers all the way and in comes a generous blast of fresh outside air.  For more flow, open the vent windows all the way!

[RivNut]

The A/C cars have the same vents. Controls are just in a different place. 

[steelman]

I was in Vegas all week. It was 112 on Wednesday. Doesn’t matter how hard you blow air that hot, it is still just HOT. In the south and southwest, if  car was offered with A/C, you hardly look at one for sale without it.

[Nick57]

On 7/28/2019 at 8:44 PM, PWB said:

Soooo,

 

who provides functional Alma compressors now? I’m guessing Elvis left the building 

 

 

 Thanks 

I just bought an new alma compressor off of rock auto for my Riv.  It was a four seasons brand.  I believe Alma is the only producer of a new A6 any one that is labeled new is going to be from them. 

[Turbinator]

On 8/2/2019 at 5:35 PM, 65VerdeGS said:

Well, all this A/C talk is a bit academic to me, as my Riv doesn't have it.

 

Here in the Pacific Northwest, having A/C isn't critical.  We rarely get so hot and humid that it's needed.  But of course it would be nice to have!

 

I find the ventilation system on the non-A/C early Rivieras to be excellent.  Just slide the ventilation levers all the way and in comes a generous blast of fresh outside air.  For more flow, open the vent windows all the way!

Yes Sir, the ventilation on my 63Riv does work good.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

On 8/13/2018 at 9:35 AM, Seafoam65 said:

You do actually have something to lose Bob.......with the STV eliminated, you can't control the temperature other than by

turning down the blower or turning up the blower. Here in Texas, when I deem it hot enough to use A/C it needs to be

going full blast anyway. If it's not real hot outside I just roll down the driver's window and open the vents in the cowl.

Winston, I put in the switch that bypasses the STV. I do feel as though I haven’t missed a thing. The cool air comes when I need it and when not needed zi just slow down the blower. Maybe not optimal, but I’m satisfied with how it works rolling down the highway.

Sitting at long traffic lights or caught in bumper to bumper traffic the cooling slows significantly. I’m putting a severe duty clutch in hopes more are coming through the condenser will help.

Turbinstor

[Turbinator]

On 8/2/2019 at 5:35 PM, 65VerdeGS said:

Well, all this A/C talk is a bit academic to me, as my Riv doesn't have it.

 

Here in the Pacific Northwest, having A/C isn't critical.  We rarely get so hot and humid that it's needed.  But of course it would be nice to have!

 

I find the ventilation system on the non-A/C early Rivieras to be excellent.  Just slide the ventilation levers all the way and in comes a generous blast of fresh outside air.  For more flow, open the vent windows all the way!

Sir, you are correct the ventilation in the Riv is good. Very good.

Turbinator