JohnD1956 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Then the next thing to verify is the firing order. BTW, when you pulled the plugs, did you smell gas? Were the plugs fouled with oil? Edited December 16, 2015 by JohnD1956 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Firing order is fine, as per shop manual etc. Plugs were still new, not fouled at all. When I turned the motor with plugs out I smelled starter fluid for a few seconds that's about it. Not much gasoline smell (not flooded). One thing I was checking for was whether oil was circulating. The oil pressure gauge on the dash is either broken or the sender/wire is broken. So I checked the tube from the oil filter canister which goes to the rocker arm of cylinder 1. I was not seeing any oil coming out there as I cranked, when I removed the valve cover and looked. Perhaps the oil filter canister was not full enough yet. I have cranked this motor over for many minutes on several occasions, and have not heard one single firing of any cylinder. Not one. It's like trying to revive a dead person. No signs of life whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Not to belabor the point, but are you sure the rotor points to the #1 cylinder when it is at Top Dead center? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I would also point out that unless you have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge, the factory gauge is fed by it's own oil supply pipe. It is not electrical. While this line may be plugged, you should have seen some movement of the gauge if the line is hooked up. Look for a small 1/4 inch copper line attached to the engine down low. Ease it out. Then spin the engine. If you have no oil coming out that hole at the engine then thank the powers of the universe that it didn't start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) To find top dead center, took timing cover off, spun the engine a few times, could not find timing mark on flywheel. Will check for oil pressure at the oil filter canister, on the intake hose to it. Edited December 21, 2015 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 You can pull the valve cover, and rotate the engine till the valves for cylinder 1 are both closed. Then stick a long straw into the spark plug hole and rotate the engine slowly till the straw changes direction. That ought to be close enough. Then pull the distributor cap and be sure the rotor aligns with the wire for the #1 cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Shop manual says the exhaust valve for cylinder 3 starts to open around TDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 On those engines, it takes forever for oil to get to the rockers - even with a running engine. Also, it is possible to put the flywheel on wrong so that even if you do find the timing marks, they may be wrong. There are 6 bolts and it is an 8 cylinder engine. The flywheel being mounted wrong is a fairly common thing. It is possible because you have a replacement engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Today I'll try again to start it. Oil pump works, I took the oil filter out and drained the canister, and cranked the engine to see if oil comes up the hose coming up to the canister. It does, so no problem there. Every time I try to start it, it cranks faster than the time before. Maybe the tar in the bearings and rust in the cylinders is loosening up. If it doesn't crank fast enough to start this time on 6 volts, I'll just have to run 12 volts to it. You gotta do what you gotta do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 You gotta do what you gotta do.On one that I revived, I ended up towing it for a few miles in gear, first with the plugs out and then with the plugs in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric W Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Watched your videos. Your starter speed is ok. It's unbelievable how slow the starter cranks on my '51 with the 320 engine, but it catches and takes off. I believe you need to add more gas before cranking. That intake manifold is some long tubes, and the little squirt from the initial pump when you open the throttle to get the starter cranking isn't going to cut it. On my '51 with the 263 engine, I give it 5 or 6 pumps with the ignition off so the starter won't run. Hold throttle open at the end of each pump for a couple of seconds to let the gas dribble down. Then turn on the ignition & crank the starter. For your car, since you don't know if the accel pump is doing all it should, I'd just dribble some gas down into the intake. Make sure to get both barrels of the carb, since one feeds the middle 4 cylinders and the other feeds the 2 front and 2 rear cylinders. Good luck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Thanks Eric. I'll give it lots more gas next time. I tried to start it again today, and squirted a ton of starter fluid in, lots more than before. It didn't catch so I hooked up my two 6 V batteries in series so I'd get 12 volts, and it wasn't any better. In fact I think it cranked SLOWER on 12 V than 6 V (long jumper cables got hot) I'll do what old-yank says and pull it around for a few miles. I need to get er done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) With the amount of starter fluid it should of kicked, at least, if not roared, even at that cranking speed. I have started these cars on 12V, by using jumping it direct to the starter terminal, and they will spin over pretty good. That can help if the compression is quite weak. There had are to of been something wrong with either the battery or the hook up. I couple of comments, I don't know if they will help. I cannot remember from earlier in your thread but have you verified that the coil is producing spark? Also, I keep thinking about what John said about the firing order. It is an easy thing to put the flywheel on in the wrong position, also the distributor too can easily put in a bit wrong, and then it will not fire. But if it was simply that the order was mixed up, you'd likely get a backfire, or a couple of kicks, at least, unless it was totally wrong. Not suggesting that you have done this, but a previous mechanic may have. Also, make sure that you have the rotation of the rotor correct to the firing order. One word of caution, if it backfires with the air cleaner off and you're spraying fluid into the carb, it will get real nasty, real fast. Almost blew up a car that way a long time ago. I now squirt it down the carb and then put the air breather back on top, then hit the starter. Anyway, I hope this helps, I wish I could do more! Keith Edited December 23, 2015 by Buicknutty (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 You mean you jump a 12 V battery in parallel right onto the terminals with the 6V battery hooked up? Makes sense but not any better, my problem here was the 10 foot jumper cables. I should have taken out the 6V battery and put a fully charged 12V in its place. No voltage drop due to crappy jumper cables. By the way, when I had it on 12 V in this video for 10 seconds the jumper cables got hot. Way too many amps for 4 gauge. Tomorrow I pull start the damn car. Gotta do what you gotta do. Need to get er done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 I've done it both ways, because of the long narrow configuration of the 3E battery it can tough to get a "normal" 12V battery in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Your engine doesn't even try to fire. Something should at least happen, even if it is just a pop. You may have a bad coil. Sometimes a coil will show spark on a plug out in the open, but will not actually fire under compression. I have had this problem a couple of times through the years.Give a new (not just another) coil a try. Nothing to loose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 It has a 1940 coil and a 1953 engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Go to NAPA and get a new 6V coil. Volts is Volts. That 1940 coil could be pretty tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Not the coil. Bought a 6V coil at Autozone, $18, hooked it up, car won't start. Not one single pop, just like before. Tested the spark of the new coil, it makes a spark the same color as the old one. Yellow-white. I think the engine is just dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I would pull the intake manifold and see if there are mouse nests in the runners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I thought of that, but there were no mouse nests in the air filter housing or the intake sound muffler. And the choke was rusted shut. There were mouse turds in the trunk though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Got to be something wrong, it has enough compression to start, which says that the basics are there, rings, pistons, valves, at least work. One thing that Ive never done, but some other guys have, is put a small bit of fuel directly in a couple of cylinders with the plugs out and then give it a try. Keith Edited December 25, 2015 by Buicknutty (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Good idea. Then if it starts and cuts off after 2 seconds it means no fuel in getting in, as well as no starter fluid is getting either. Must be mice. Maybe ants. Just thought of something. The choke flap was rusted shut, so bad I had to soak it in Deep Creep and use a hammer and tap pretty hard with a screwdriver to break it open. Pretty sure that means the throttle flap is the same way. Gonna take the carb off today and break it all loose. I bet the starter fluid is just coming right back up and not getting in anywhere, air either. And if the idle circuits are clogged too, then nothing can get in. Once I get the carb off I'll check for cockroaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 If the throttle plates were stuck the gas pedal linkage would not work. I am still wondering abiut the position of the rotor relative to the spark plug wires in the distributor cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 When the rotor is pointing at the contact for cylinder 1, both valves of cylinder 1 are closed and the exhaust valve for cyl 3 is just starting to open, which the shop manual says would happen at TDC. But it wouldn't hurt to loosen the distributor and twist it a little while trying to start it, to see if that helps. That doesn't say anything about the position of the #1 piston, which, if it's not up all the way, means the timing chain or sproket is broken and I'm hosed. I got the carburetor out, nothing looks askew, no mice, the carb looks fine. I'll open it up and get a better look, on a day that's not Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Did you check the negative wire from the coil through to the points, to make sure it is not frayed, and possibly grounding on something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbuickgs Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Didn't read the entire post but check spark at the spark plug . Loosen the distributor and as you turn the engine over, rotate distributor counterclockwise slowly to advance the timing and pray !!! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 JohnD1956, I didn't do that, but the wires in the cap look new. I get a strong spark by hooking a spark plug wire to a spare spark plug and laying the plug on a grounded surface, and cranking. See my second video. So spark is not a problem. I lied about Christmas Day, I took the carb apart and looked inside, at all the needle valves and rubber parts, pump needle, etc., everything looks new, even the gaskets looked new. Looks like somebody rebuilt the carb. The outside of the carb is brass colored instead of BLACK like old worn out carbs are. I reinstalled the carb and decided that is obviously not the problem. This is a good carb. Still thinking what I need to do is pull-start this car. The engine hasn't run in 30 years and it needs a lot of persuasion to start, especially because it has lousy compression in a lot of cylinders. It has 4 bad cylinders and 4 worse cylinders. 1----822----353----684----465----716----617----808----75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 was there gas in the carb when you took it apart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackofalltrades70 Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 I think at this point, I would pour a little oil in each plug hole, put the plugs back in, crank it over a bit, then pour a good "little" amount of gas in the carb with the throttle wide open.Put the air cleaner back on and crank it over with the battery charger hooked up and on high.The oil will help the compression come up just a bit on the first time you crank it with gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 JohnD1956, the carb was full of gas when I took it out. Turned it upside down and several ounces of rusty gasoline came out. This is all new gas that came from when I was cranking, the rust is courtesy of the fuel line between the filter and the carb, probably mostly from the pump. To be expected. From the filter back I have a whole new fuel setup. A rubber hose going back to a 6-gallon plastic motorboat fuel tank in the trunk, with all motorboat fuel hose and fittings, snap on Evinrude connectors. Jackofalltrades that sounds like a great idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I figured out the problem. If you look at the first video you can hear the way it cranks. It cranks very slowly, and every so often it almost stops like it physically catches on something, and then starts cranking again. I was assuming it was because it was seized for 30 years, maybe a rusty ring was catching on a corroded spot, maybe a bearing was getting stuck in tar, I didn't know. Well, today it was still doing that. No way after all this cranking and oiling are the rings still binding up, so I got a hunch. I took off the coil wire and it didn't do that anymore!!! So, all along, the spark plugs were firing way too early, during the compression stroke. I would have figured that out right away if I wasn't so concerned about the whole "seized for 30 years" thing and assuming the engine was binding inside. Charging the battery now. This afternoon I will retard the timing by 10 or 15 degrees and start the car. Video coming. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I'm looking forward to the next video! Some times we over think and get frustrated..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Sounds like progress may have been made! Really looking forward to your next post. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Hope today is the day! Lord knows you put a lot into getting her going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) I loosened the distributor to retard the timing and it was already turned as far as it could go. Something was very wrong, so I pulled the distributor out and moved the shaft over one tooth and reinstalled it. (there are 14 teeth around the gear so 25 degrees each, it was tricky to do this and still line up with the oil pump slot). Turns out, some idiot put the distributor in wrong so the car sat for 30 years because it was impossible to start. Now I can get the timing right and it should start. Edited February 17, 2016 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Hooray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbuickgs Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 GREAT!!! The old BUICK lives on ! Congrats!!! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 That is so awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Maybe the car was a little camera shy? Or just a bit mischievous? Glad you got her going though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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