58 Brakes , convert front to disc. How?

[bubba]

Let me start out that I have tried many things already.  New front shoes,  cut the drum just a tad,  new hoses,,,the car makes a right turn when you stop.  Has new ball joints.  Last time I drove  it  the brakes totally failed.  Lucky I was at a red light.  This is not a comfortable feeling by any means.  This was a few years ago.  Master was rebuilt before that happened so put new dual master in.  I would like to convert the front to disc without having to drill holes.  Does anybody know of a conversion kit that does this for 1958 Century?  Thanks in advance.  Al

[old-tank]

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=vintage+buick+disc+brake+conversion&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

Here is a start for your search.

If not totally committed to the conversion, that car can be made to stop properly with the original brakes.  Example:  pulling to the right may just be and alignment problem like toe-out.

[SpecialEducation]

Does the pulling happen on the first (cold) stop?  If both drums aren't the same thickness (one has been turned more than the other), they may have different fade rates.

Drum brake fading happens when you heat the drums through braking action and the inboard side of the drum grows with heat and becomes farther away from the shoe than the outboard side, which has the hub flange to help dissipate the heat and retain the dimension of the friction surface.

 

Our '56 stops dead straight on the first couple cold stops, but as the drums heat up, it gets a touch squirrely. The I.D. of the front drums are not identical.

This is what I'm leaning towards, as the common wear parts are readily available:

https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=57

 

Of course, for your '58, you'll need a different kit:

https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=59
 

[60FlatTop]

Repairing brakes is a diagnostic and mechanical repair job. Converting seems like an engineering, mechanical repair, and diagnostic verification of the changed system.

 

The second option is easier?

 

The only qualified brake designer for my car is GM.

 

I'll bet you two bumpers fixing the original system is the best option.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

When you replaced the front brake shoes and "cut the drums a touch", did you ensure that the base adjustment was accurate?  The easiest way to do that is with an inside-outside caliper (allows you to do the base adjustment to match the shoe adjustment to the brake drum diameter BEFORE putting the drums back on the car. 

 

What kind of "finish" was put on the brake drums' shoe contact area?  Just curious.

 

After putting the shoes on, for maximum effectiveness they need to be "broken in" to allow the various parts of the shoes to get hot and "become acquainted", letting the lining material "gas" so they'll work best.

 

Once, I cheaped-out and got some inexpensive rotors from an auto supply, using GM pads.  The surface finish on the rotors was similar to what some of our techs had done on their "resurface rotor" jobs.  It was not the factory swirl finish, so I was careful in not trying any panic stops at first.  After about three light-moderate decal stops from 45mph in succession, the brakes were hot, smelling, and starting to pull.  I put the car at the shop and let it cool several hours before returning home.  Past that, I did gentle stops.  After about the third day of moderate-decal stops from 45mph, no more smell and no pull.  It took THAT long for things to get bedded-in!  Trying to do (even) moderate stops with new brake shoes can cause the situations you describe, pulling that is.

 

Ensure the front end alignment is "to specs".  Ensure the front suspension rubber bushings are still decently good!!!  Plus those on the rear suspension, too!

 

When brakes fade, it's due to the heat causing the various components in the brake shoes to "gas", with gas getting between the shoe and the drum, which allegedly can interfere with a good friction interface.  The more heat the brake lining can absorb, the better the heat resistance.  One reason for "brakes with brass" and other semi-metallic brake shoes for higher-performance applications.

 

Still, though, a properly broken-in set of shoes/drums should stop straight and easy for the first few stops from cold.  You can probably find a break-in procedure for new brake shoes and/or brake pads online somewhere.  I think I have a routine somewhere at the house if you can't find one, otherwise.  Basically, it involves several easy stops from lower speeds, then medium intensity stops from 45mph or so, then a set of medium intensity stops from highway speeds.  IF there are any "heat smells", then I'd say to park the vehicle and let the brakes cool for several hours (without the parking brake set!!! so the drums on that axle don't "warp" ) and do the routine again the next day until you can get all the way through it without any smells of heat.  It can take some time, but one that should allow the brake system to provide all it can, when needed.

 

Also, as Old-Tank found out, one name brand of brake linings stopped much better than the other name brand of brake linings.  Always get the best ones available, in the preferred brand!

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

As for conversions, getting matched components which are OEM-based is the best way to go, typically.  I believe that's the Scarebird orientation, too.  Otherwise, Wilwood has some conversion kits for older vehicles which allegedly have good results and are "bolt-on" ready.  Wilwood's been doing premium drag race braking system components for a good long while, just venturing off into the vintage vehicle realm in the last few years.

 

Which ever way you end up going on the conversion, make a list of what you did and what components/brands were used so you can replace them with same later on . . . or a later owner will know what to ask for.  In our progressing times, when a mechanic sees something they don't know what it is, or what it needs, they can run backards and want to start re-inventing the wheel again with fixin' things.  $$$$$$ spent results, generally, or they refuse to do the work all together.  Best to have "The List"!

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Does the pulling happen on the first (cold) stop?  If both drums aren't the same thickness (one has been turned more than the other), they may have different fade rates.

Drum brake fading happens when you heat the drums through braking action and the inboard side of the drum grows with heat and becomes farther away from the shoe than the outboard side, which has the hub flange to help dissipate the heat and retain the dimension of the friction surface.

 

Our '56 stops dead straight on the first couple cold stops, but as the drums heat up, it gets a touch squirrely. The I.D. of the front drums are not identical.

This is what I'm leaning towards, as the common wear parts are readily available:

https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=57

 

Of course, for your '58, you'll need a different kit:

https://scarebird.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=59

 

I can say that without a doubt the Scarebird rotor conversion was one of the best things I did for my 56 Buick. After I've driven the car with both setups, the rotors definitely out performed the drum brakes (I kept drums on the rear to be clear here). I don't feel brake fade anymore going down the steeper hills around where I live as I did before and the car is much more responsive when it stops. Plus, you don't have to fiddle with the shoe adjustments anymore, and that's a plus. If you're planning on keeping it classic, then keep the drums. I went for safety on my ride, but kept the backing plates if I ever care to return the car to its proper glory.

 

Repairing brakes is a diagnostic and mechanical repair job. Converting seems like an engineering, mechanical repair, and diagnostic verification of the changed system.

 

The second option is easier?

 

The only qualified brake designer for my car is GM.

 

I'll bet you two bumpers fixing the original system is the best option.

Bernie

I'm probably in a very small minority here, but the 1956 power brake booster was prone to failure on my model. I don't know if it is the specific model or all of them, but my grandfather told me he had the booster repaired twice in the car's lifetime. I kept the original unit, but upgraded to a 7 in. dual diaphragm brake booster with a dual reservoir remote fill master cylinder and a brand new vacuum canister, along with residual valves and a hand metered proportioning valve.The setup mounted in the original position with minor modifications and I have been extremely happy with how the car performs. I didn't bother with the original equipment because I wanted ease of mind. It didn't help that my grandfather would not ride with me in his old car unless it had been replaced, but I feel I'm better for it. I also want to point out that I saved quite a bit of cash converting over to a more modern system rather than having the old system rebuilt to fail again. Just my two cents.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Beemon (see edit history)

[trp3141592]

Hi,

 

Did you replace the rubber brake hoses?  These hoses have a limited life--they swell shut on hte inside with no apparent deterioration on the outiside.  Replacing them solved a similar braking issue on my '37.

 

--Tom

[D Yaros]

On a conversion to disc a question to be asked & answered is:  "Will my original wheels work with the new set up?

[Beemon]

On a conversion to disc a question to be asked & answered is:  "Will my original wheels work with the new set up?

Mine do. You have to grind off the corners of the calipers that are suggested in those kits to fit under the original rim.

[SpecialEducation]

The only qualified brake designer for my car is GM.

 

I'll bet you two bumpers fixing the original system is the best option.

Bernie

 

Since I know what it costs to have a front & rear bumper re-chromed (more than we bought the car for), I'll take that bet.

 

For starters, brake systems are very generic.  Have you noticed the wide range of applicability of brake parts for these cars?  They are off the shelf components designed and built by Bendix (not GM, which sold its minority interests in Bendix in 1948).

 

Second, the Scarebird components adapt newer GM technology onto older chassis with little to no modification.

The idea that the best brakes available are the original 1950's technology is ridiculous.  Is there something magical or holy about GM engineers that made them infallible?  If you are building a museum piece, by all means keep the drums, bias-ply tires, and while you are at it, put alcohol in your radiator.  If you are building a driver, why risk the safety of your investment and your passengers when proven superior technology is available at a reasonable cost and makes zero impact to the visual effect of the car (and is completely revertible)?

[bubba]

Thanks to all that have responded so far.. I can answer some  of the questions but will have to ask my mechanic about  the rest.   It pulls when cold and gets a little better warm.  The drums were cut just enough to take the film that was on them off.   This made a difference until the next time then it was back to abnormal.  The drums were swapped on the front and it still pulled to the right.   all new hoses. It looks like the car is not getting on the road again this year as the winter is fast approaching.  I was always an "all original" guy with my cars and would never consider changing something that wasn't factory.  BUT it's not fun to feel the pedal go down to the floor when you're driving.   This is my second old car with hydraulic brakes.  First was 1941 Olds which was not power of course and gave me no problem with the brakes.   The clutch pedal went to the floor once while I was on the highway!  All my other cars have had mechanical brakes and I like them much better.   I'll get back to this when I have answers.   Thanks again to all.

[buick man]

I think what the proponents of having, keeping and Maintaining the original systems are saying is that in all due respect, and all practical applications, the original system is really just fine for properly and consistently stopping your 50's car.  In all fairness to the original system, this your original system is not something just purchased from Crapolla Imports from down the street or off the web.

 

Also let's just get rid of one prevailing myth that appears to be propagated most likely by those of us who started driving after disk brakes were as common as our computer gaming system.  No, the brakes on the 50's cars are/were not some constant ill thought out problem prone invention because the engineers did not use a computer in designing them and that people just had to live with these systems back in the day because they had nothing better on hand.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Yes caliper systems which IF well designed for the particular weight and torque vibrations and static and live loads of the particular vehicle they are mounted on, do offer some obvious advantages in the long run in terms of overall watchdog maintenance and overall  " At the edge " point of prolonged heat exchange properties.

 

But in just normal everyday classic car cruising and driving your original GM system is just fine for your car. With properly installed original components that are properly maintained the car will consistently stop time after time.

 

Converting to a caliper system: What are you using your classic car for ?  If for just cruising around responsibly and not constantly indulging yourself in the time learned dark art of tail gating the car in front of you like a Ricer all the time, then your original system is just fine.  The perceived benefits pale considerably when compared to the practical benefits and costs of keeping your original system properly up and running.

 

If you are having problems with your original system it is because of you and not the system.  Install the proper parts and maintain it regularly and properly and most if not all the bad vibes you hear about original drum brakes out there would just go away like a used diaper to the cleaner.

[bubba]

I feel like I was just sent up to my room without my supper.   I am not showing the car for a prize.  I wanted to drive it and after the failure the last time it's been sitting in the garage for a few years.  I would not do anything to the car that couldn't be reversed back to stock.  I do not tailgate but when you live in the NYC area where there is either a red light or a stop sign on every block you do get to stop a lot.   If you believe that GM knew what they were doing all the  time then I would only go for a cruise in Fantasyland.  I personally bought my father a 1990 Buick Regal that we ordered new with all options including the new anti lock brake system that was  very expensive.   From day one the car never felt like it was stopping.  Took it back to the dealer and they could NEVER fix it.  Buick told us that this was normal for that brake system.  My 1925 buick stopped quicker.  After nine years he was not well enough to have the strength in his leg to stop it.  The car was back on warranty several times.  Buick finally told us that they could fix it for $2,200.  We didn't jump at the chance, instead my father , who had only bought GM since 1958,  went with me to Toyota and bought a new 1999  Avalon which my mom still drives with out a problem.   Oh, one more thing.  The 58 that he bought new was a Pontiac and he told me that it was the biggest piece of crap he ever bought. He traded it in on a 1961 Olds after the Pontiac would just decide to stop on its' own, engine off.  First car I drove was my dad's  new 1968 Electra with 4 wheel drums and it stopped fine even after I later put new shoes on it.  Go figure!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  bubba, do what you like. Your car, your dollar. With all due respect to the naysayers, I suspect most have NOT converted any thing, THEREFORE nothing to compare to. If drums were best, NO ONE would have gone to discs.

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

Yeah, must be me. Three of the five in the garage, that all stop well, have four self energizing primary and secondary  drum brakes that have all had major overhauls within the last ten years and all four are connected by 1/4" double flared steel lines except the locations where  rubber lines were replaced. The wheels cylinders are new and the master cylinders, harder to get, have been sleeved and rebuilt. The hygroscopic fluid is flushed each year to avoid rust build up. And it is, apparently, ridiculous for me to think there was a level of intelligence that looked at the design systemically.

 

To save humanity near me I should jettison the front half, make it different with fabricated components and calipers ground so they don't rub my wheels, put in the random master cylinder from and auto parts with a pair of  3/16" bubble flare fittings and orchestrate two systems. Now, would I run smaller lines all the way to the calipers or put an adapter right at the master cylinder port. Should the small lines run all the way to the rear with adapters there or should I bump it to a 1//4 inch line at the master cylinder, I guess GM just read about brake parts in old trade magazines so the kid at the parts counter would know best. Sounds more like the cook and the alphabet soup plant.

 

I guess I'll just continue the path of increased awareness I have for the last 50+ years of working on the brakes and live this ridiculous life. I read and interpret what the contributors younger than my brake tools have to write. I even absorb some, but personally I'm not throwing anything out because I don't know how to fix it. What does that term mean; ridiculous? Hell, who can recognize a rhetorical question?

Bernie

Edited October 1, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Ttotired]

I am watching this with interest

 

I also have a 58 Buick that might go down the road of disc brakes

 

I have heard of scarebird brakes (good reports), but in the mopar forums (I also have a 60 dodge phoenix), but the problem with their kits for me, is the additional parts you have to buy come from cars that are not here and therefore just as hard to service as 50 y/o parts (I am in Perth Western Australia)

 

The other thing is that my brakes have already been modified by someone to a single master cylinder and a remote booster

 

I have been trying to get this all working, but not really there yet

 

With the car pulling to the right (I am used to hearing "pulling to the left" in the mopar forums), have you replaced the lines from the T peice on the front cross member to the hoses?

 

If the left one has rust inside (more than the right one) or has a dent in it, it can give uneven fliud flow to the cylinders

 

The pressure will eventually get there, but the fluid time will be longer

 

It may be worth just making (or getting made) new ones anyway, if theyre not already

 

Cheers

 

Mick

[60FlatTop]

The rubber hoses can begin to de-laminate with age. Under braking pressure the trapped fluid will close off or restrict the inner diameter of the passage. This can continue until it stops pressure all together OR traps fluid under pressure and won't allow the wheel cylinder to retract. Sliding a piece of #14 or #10 wire through the hose is an indicator, but the best policy is "When in doubt, change it out." And replace with quality hoses. The rear hose on a torque tube '60 Buick is hard to find. I had that one custom made at Empire Radiator in Rochester, New York.

 

My earlier comment on the cost of two bumpers was based on your bumper and their bumper as well as collateral damage incurred to both cars. That's generally more than a rechrome.

Edited October 2, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Consider disc conversion if the drums are not serviceable ($$$$) and/or the original ball bearings need replacement ($$$).  Scarebird would be the best bet since most of the parts are easier to find locally vs proprietary from other suppliers.  The big problem is that nobody makes a complete kit to include a power dual master cylinder and all the hardware.  You cannot just hook it up to the existing system.  Power dual master cylinders are available, but require fabrication not only of the mounting but also of the pedal linkage.

[SpecialEducation]

I am watching this with interest

 

I also have a 58 Buick that might go down the road of disc brakes

 

I have heard of scarebird brakes (good reports), but in the mopar forums (I also have a 60 dodge phoenix), but the problem with their kits for me, is the additional parts you have to buy come from cars that are not here and therefore just as hard to service as 50 y/o parts (I am in Perth Western Australia)

 

The other thing is that my brakes have already been modified by someone to a single master cylinder and a remote booster

 

I have been trying to get this all working, but not really there yet

 

With the car pulling to the right (I am used to hearing "pulling to the left" in the mopar forums), have you replaced the lines from the T peice on the front cross member to the hoses?

 

If the left one has rust inside (more than the right one) or has a dent in it, it can give uneven fliud flow to the cylinders

 

The pressure will eventually get there, but the fluid time will be longer

 

It may be worth just making (or getting made) new ones anyway, if theyre not already

 

Cheers

 

Mick

Well Mick, if it makes you feel better, Dodge used these calipers too:

 

 

As a bonus, Oreillyauto.com claims it qualifies for free shipping!

Now, they may change their story when they find out what hemisphere you want the parts shipped too...

 

[Beemon]

Consider disc conversion if the drums are not serviceable ($$$$) and/or the original ball bearings need replacement ($$$). Scarebird would be the best bet since most of the parts are easier to find locally vs proprietary from other suppliers. The big problem is that nobody makes a complete kit to include a power dual master cylinder and all the hardware. You cannot just hook it up to the existing system. Power dual master cylinders are available, but require fabrication not only of the mounting but also of the pedal linkage.

I mounted my dual master cylinder in the stock location and did not have to play with the brake pedal. I did have to weld a half inch ball bearing to a nut to screw on to the booster push rod, though. I also went remote fill and put the reservoir above the steering column on the fender.

I didn't mean to try and start a war earlier, but I just wanted to clarify that I'm not some punk kid doing punk kid stuff to classic cars. My grandfather drove this car brand new from 1956 to 1978 and in those years the original booster failed twice and was serviced. I don't know if it was a terrible system or not but when I started my restoration, that was the first thing my grandfather told me to take care of. I had the original system rebuilt and it works, but I also asked his opinion on the subject and told me to trash it, recollecting guys who broke the bottom half of their steering wheel trying to stop their car either due to brake fade or a failed power booster.

I know it's not for everyone, but these are different times with different cars and people on the road. After getting my car licensed earlier this year, I've had to make three emergency stops and I'm glad I upgraded the system because the ability to stop the car has greatly increased from when I used to test drive the car with drum/drum and the original booster through my grandfather's division in comparison to the disc/drum and dual master and booster.

[old-tank]

Good point Beemon.  You apparently made the right decision for your situation.  Can you share the total cost of the conversion and sources of all the parts? 

[Ttotired]

 

Well Mick, if it makes you feel better, Dodge used these calipers too:

 

 

 

As a bonus, Oreillyauto.com claims it qualifies for free shipping!

 

Now, they may change their story when they find out what hemisphere you want the parts shipped too...

 

 

Thanks for that

 

The free shipping always vanishes once they find out your outside the continental US

 

Even Hawaii and Alaska get hit (I believe), but, the people that deliver this stuff need to eat as well

 

Mick

[Ttotired]

Yes Mr Beemon, I also would be interested to see how it was all done please

 

Mick

[Beemon]

Here is the list of parts I purchased when I did the conversion. Some of the numbers had changed so I had to track them down, but here's the complete list of parts. Scarebird also provides a list of parts with manufacturer part numbers after purchasing the kit. These are all from NAPA because I prefer them over all else and my local NAPA boys do things old school when I bring them questions (bust out the books instead of asking me what engine I have in my car for windshield wipers). When I bought it, it was $165, so I'm basing my price budget off what I paid for. The kit today looks like it contains more stuff (looks like bearings). Always ask questions before you make your final purchase!

Scarebird:

• Scarebird kit: $165
• 1971-1976 Buick Riviera Rotors: $42.99 (NB 4885537) x2
• 1990-2002 Chevy Astro Van Calipers: $34.50 ea (L: SE4851) (R: SE4850)
• 1990-2002 Chevy Astro Van Banjo Bolt: $2.70 ea (UP 82703) x2
• 1979-1990 Chevy Caprice Hydraulic Hose: $8.70 (UP 36847) x2
• 1979-1982 Dodge Colt Inner Wheel Bearing: $31.99 (BRG BR51) x2
• 1971-1976 Buick Riviera Outer Wheel Bearing: $13.50 (BRG BR3) x2
• 1977 Buick Riviera Wheel Seal: $3.15 (NOS 19984) x2
• 1971-1976 Buick Riviera Dust Cap: $4.29 (NOE 7302438) x2
• The pads are included with the calipers, but I chose to go with the ultra premium series: $75 (can't go cheap on brakes!)

Total: ~$523.70 (Only shipping paid is on Scarebird kit, everything else is shipped free to any local NAPA location usually within the same week!)

Kanter Disc Conversion Kit: $749

Stock:

• Wheel Cylinder: $28.99 ea x2
• Brake Hose: $11.69 ea x2
• Drums (Kanter\CARS): $119 ea x2
• Shoes (CARS): $48.75 (Kanter only offers front+rear brake kits)
• Bearing Kit (Kanter): $159 (CARS does not have a bearing kit, expect to spend extra $$$)
• Brake Spring Kit (CARS): $20

Total: ~$548 (excluding shipping, which will make it more expensive. This option is already more expensive than the kit sourced by Scarebird!)

 

Now I want to point out that the disc conversion kit will work with the original master cylinder proportioning valve, although not recommended. When I rebuilt the original master cylinder and booster, I used kits provided by Kanter. My piston was clean but the master cylinder itself was pitted on the inside. You should note that these units do not need to be sleeved! The piston never touches the wall and only displaces the liquid by volume displaced, so the inside surface area is irrelevant (according to the engineering department at my college). The only thing the piston rides on is the rubber seals inside the master cylinder - if your piston is rusted, it will deteriorate these seals.

Kanter parts:

• Delco Kit: $99 (Bendix kit is only $75, I don't know if they're a better booster than the Delco...)
• Leather Piston Cup: $38
• Stop Light Switch: $22
• Push Rod Boot (Optional I suppose): $19
• You will also need to replace the rubber hose going from the inlet valve to the booster section, which you can get from any NAPA for less than $5.

Total: $178 before shipping.

I do not know the cost to have one professionally rebuilt, but Kanter offers boosters for $349 plus a core deposit, so I'm guessing upwards to $500 for a professional rebuild.

 

The Master Cylinder and Booster combo I bought came from MPBrakes.com and Speedway Motors, respectively (Speedway had a cheaper booster and some other accessories I needed that I'll list below).

• 1" Bore Dual Power Master Cylinder: $179 (MC1001PZK)
• 7" Dual Diaphragm Brake Booster: $140 (91031431)
• Mr. Gasket Vacuum Reservoir: $40 (5503701)
• Adjustable Proportioning Valve: $33 (91031353)
• 2 PSI Disc Residual Valve: $15 (91031345)
• 10 PSI Drum Residual Valve: $15 (91031347)

Total: $422

I replaced the vacuum reservoir for good measure since I replaced the original unit with this setup all together. Since I couldn't use the old proportioning block from the old unit, I bought an adjustable unit, which is close to the factory 53/47 setting (to my knowledge, you want disc/drums closer to 60/40). The residual valves were also recommended to keep the lines ahead of them primed with fluid so the fluid doesn't have to travel as far and results in tighter pedal response. The original pedal didn't have much pedal throw in the way of newer vehicles, so this was key for me. I mounted the master cylinder in the same location with minor modifications. I had to put a tiny hole in the frame of the car right above where the thru bolts reinforced the X-frame. I also had to cut out a cross member for the power steering box support, which I later reinforced with another piece of steel. Lastly, since the space was very compact, the front most hole for the front brakes was directly behind the inner fender skirt, so I had to drill a hole thru the inner fender to reveal this port.

 

(This was how I marked up the new drill holes for the new power booster using the original bracket. I put rubber grommets where the original holes were to seal them up under the floor.)

(Note that this setup was before I tried to mount the inner fender skirt)

(This was how I routed the line after I drilled the hole. I later covered the line with that plastic wire cover stuff.)

 

Bear in mind that this was the only way I could make the master cylinder work in the stock location. I have seen people upgrade the brakes by mounting the master cylinder to the vent cover, which I feel is much more tedious to do than keeping the stock pedal location. To compensate for a lack of pressure switch (which are terrible in my honest opinion), I installed a push button brake light switch mounted to the steering column using an L bracket with two cylinder clamps around it. The only hole I drilled was one big enough for the push button body, which I then slid down until it fully contacted the brake pedal. When the pedal is depressed, the button is released and the lights come on. I forget the part number right now and I don't have any pictures of it currently, but it works as intended and is hidden from sight unless you go to look under the dash.

 

Anyways I hope this helps. I can't really offer any answers for any other questions regarding the system unless its a 1956, as simply put I do not have access to those vehicles. If they mount the same way, though, it should be very similar fit if you feel comfortable with the modifications required.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Beemon (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Thanks for taking the time to lay all of that information out for us, Beemon!!  Definitely appreciated!

 

When I found the Scarebird website several years ago, I was impressed that most of what I saw was the use of OEM-level/designed parts adapted to earlier vehicles without the need of items from specialty vendors.  MUCH better for the "average guy"!  Be that as it may.

 

My general orientations usually follow the "stock, well-maintained" situation . . . BUT I also am aware that some upgrades were availble, even when the older cars were new, as better "higher-performance" brake linings and such.  Unfortunately, almost all of those things are now not available any more.  When I was looking at brake shoes for my '70 Monaco in 11x3 sizes, I also found some of the catalog listings were not consistent or listed a narrower shoe with the wider part number, so you had to know what you were looking for AND how to get it, unlike in prior times.  Sometimes, too, some vendors didn't have some parts that others did, so it could get to be a flaky situation pretty quickly if you just believed what the catalogs now listed!!  As discs were option on those cars OEM, changing things over would be a bolt-on situation, BUT I found those earlier disc systems to have a slightly spongier pedal feel than the solid feel of the drum brakes back then.  And, with 11x3 brakes, the cars did stop well in every situation, except possibly a mountain "drive", which is not where I live.  As was typical, discretion was needed to keep from leaving 4 black marks in a panic stop (which many GM systems would also do back then).

 

By the same token, I also know of the better serviceability of the single-piston caliper disc brakes.  There were "everywhere" and parts availability is just a call/credit car number away for almost everybody in the world.  Given the "mine field" I found when looking for drum brake shoes for the '70 Monaco, I can see where doing discs on that car would be advisable just from a parts availability orientation.  I do also know that discs have better "all weather" performance.  Remember how some GM cars had to avoid "mud puddles" in order to have brakes that worked???  I do!  Never did figure out why GM brakes from back then had that issue and other makes did not have it to the same degree.  Plus, with the disc brake upgrades, you also get a much better selection of higher-performance brake pads, even the much-touted ceramic "beige dust" pads (which also can degrade the rotor surface faster than metallic pads will).  So there are some other benefits to the disc brake conversion than just reliable stopping power greater than that of the original system.

 

I don't believe there was a "proportioning valve" in the original drum systems' fluid system, as it would not be needed (wheel cylinder piston diameters usually varied the "leverage" rather than an inline valve (which disc brakes need to balance stopping power between the front/rear of the vehicle, especially since disc brakes need more pressure to work than drum brakes do).  Residual pressure valves, yes, proportioning valves, no (on drum brake master cylinders) . . . many times internal to the master cylinder on the earlier cylinders.

 

To me, which some might not like to hear, is the many benefits the street rod industry has bestowed upon us in the general vehicle hobby.  Namely, in upgraded brake system components that can mount in the same place as the OEM components . . . as power booster systems which mount "under the floor" and also the "kits" to put better brakes on older chassis vehicles.  As I mentioned, Wilwood (and a few others) seems to have seen the trends of the street rod/street machine vehicles to become more-mainstream and that they ALL needed better brakes than what came on the vehicles.  Rear disc kits use bolt-on caliper mounts (as did the rear disc systems for the last-gen rwd Impala SS Chevy-axle vehicles, which also works on all 10-bolt Chevy rear axles!), which are pretty easy to make with the needed-thickness plate steel cut to the correct dimensions.  I believe that some of the front disc conversion kits use similar, such that new steering knuckles are not needed (which many OEM items needed for such change-overs).

 

As "good" as the older systems might have been (back then), when the brake lining selections were much better, with driving patterns that were not as intense as they can be in more recent times, we lived through those times as we did through the similar "no seat belt/cupholders on the inside of the glove box door" times.  In more modern times, leaving extra distance between the vehicle(s) in front of us is not really an option as there'll usually be some opportunistic "other driver" who feels they need that space to get where they're going 15 seconds quicker.  Just depends WHERE and WHEN you drive, which I understand and respect.  Driving in a more relaxed manner "after dark" when the main traffic is already "home", windows down enjoying the sounds the vehicle makes (or doesn't make!) as it eases on down the road, and all of the other endorphin-boosting activities our older vehicles can make happen, is much different than "high noon" during lunch rush hour with lots of 18-wheelers in the traffic mix.  Or the mid-afternoon "rush hour" to get the kids from school or day care!  Just variable situations which can affect how we use our older vehicles and when it's safer to do so.​

 

Thanks, again, Beemon for the great information.

 

NTX5467

Edited October 3, 2015 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  Well said, Willis. As usual.

  I also thank you, Beemon.

 

  Ben

[Ttotired]

Thank you Beemon, that gives me a good heads up on whats involved

 

Mick