Cold Start OK. Hot Start No Go.

[Guest VTRex]

Me too. I've never used one so I didn't know if there was a "before using for the first time" instruction.

[Guest VTRex]

I doubt it too. Just making sure I wasn't doing something wrong.

Edited August 4, 2015 by VTRex (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Me too. I've never used one so I didn't know if there was a "before using for the first time" instruction.

Not that I'm aware of. They are pretty much plug & play.

[Guest Corvanti]

it certainly sounds like you're going to need a fuel pump replacement.

 

i might have missed it, but did you run the car until it was in a no start condition, then checked the pressure?

 

it probably doesn't matter that much - if i recall correctly, my fp was around 25 to 34 psi depending on running or a no run condition. after replacement, it was 43 to 45psi.

 

is this going to be a DIY job? i'm sure there are many here that can give you tips to make a PITA job a bit easier.

[Guest VTRex]

Can fuel pumps be "kind of" bad? Can they simply put out too little fuel pressure but otherwise be working?

Can this be a fuel filter issue?

I don't know if it's a diy project. I just asked my buddy who's done one before (different car). He said if he had to do it again he'd cut a hole in the trunk! LOL!

If I can narrow it down to the pump definitively I would probably take it to my favorite mechanic. It needs new struts in the rear so it would be a good chance to knock them both out.

[Guest Corvanti]

yes, fuel pumps can be "kind of bad".

 

clogged fuel filter - maybe but doubtful. i would think that would cause a problem all the time. but i'd replace it when doing the fuel pump. i don't have a location for the fuel pump in the '91, but recall reading threads in "search" that it is easier to get to than the '88/'89. i think it's somewhere under the driver's side of the car near the outside. others can help with the specific location.

 

and most important: if you don't have a '91 FSM (Factory Service Manual), get one!!! Daves 89 has/had one for sale:  http://forums.aaca.org/topic/256300-reatta-shop-manuals/

 

it will help with future problems!

 

if your mechanic isn't a Reatta mechanic, he'll need it for reference. if he's not experienced in a Reatta and says he "don't need a stinkin' manual", i'd rethink taking a car to him...

 

finally: here's a great tutorial written by Woody: http://reattaowner.com/roj/component/content/article/67-engine-a-drivetrain/fuel-system/269-fuel-pump-replacement-instructions

[DAVES89]

I still have manuals for sale. $70.00 delivered and they are in mint condition. [Owned by a little Buick dealership in Stevens Point Wi.]

 If interested email me at;

 lemke1044@aol.com

Edited August 4, 2015 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[wws944]

It's been about 90 minutes and it has leaked down to about 11 psi.

 

That would seem to rule out leaking injectors.  So I am thinking fuel pump.

 

Our Reattas have a 3.0 bar (43 psi) FPR.  So the pressure, when running, should be a little less than 43 psi.  (E.g., high 30s, low 40s.)

Edited August 4, 2015 by wws944 (see edit history)

[Guest VTRex]

I think we're getting closer. I went to drive home, turned the ignition, had about 16-17 psi.I started the car and had about 20 psi. Normal at this point for my car. It stumbles a bit off the line but soon warms up and does ok on the open road.

I got home and shut it off. Put the gauge on it, turn on the ignition, 16-17 psi. Started, running fine, 20 psi.

I went inside, drank a beer, went outside about 15 minutes later, checked the gauge, it read about 28psi. Wierd! I started it, it stumbled badly like it always does at this point, gauge reads 20 psi. I shut it off.

At this point I'm scratching my head. So I bleed all of the pressure out of the fuel system with the gas run-off valve on the gauge. Normal takes a second. This time takes a long time. Like a minute. It's going down but really slow. I'm thinking "fuel pump is still on!" But it goes down to zero eventually. Then I turn the ignition key; 5 psi. Turn it off, turn it on; 5 psi. Open the gas cap and try it again; 5 psi. Try to start car: car won't even fire! Same problem as always.

[Guest VTRex]

One last symptom that I didn't think was related but someone might think otherwise. When my car is fully warmed up my oil pressure gauge goes a little crazy. Goes from normal reading then jumps to max for a moment and goes back and forth. Been that way for a long time. Only happens when the car is fully warm.

[Ronnie]

You need to do the Fuel Pressure Tests (3 parts) then report your results here.

[Ronnie]

One last symptom that I didn't think was related but someone might think otherwise. When my car is fully warmed up my oil pressure gauge goes a little crazy. Goes from normal reading then jumps to max for a moment and goes back and forth. Been that way for a long time. Only happens when the car is fully warm.

 

You need an oil pressure sensor. It might play a part in your problem but it shouldn't keep the engine from starting if everything else is working properly..

[Guest VTRex]

I just came to mind when I read the description on your website. It does double duty. Oil pressure and fuel pump switch. Thought I'd throw it out there.

[Guest VTRex]

I'm trying to get a voltage reading but I can't seem to make good contact with the (green) primer connector. Even when the car starts there is no movement.

I will try again after work...

[padgett]

OK 20 psi should idle but not really have power. I look for 38-42 psi. That is controlled by the regulator. When the key is turned from off to run there is a 2 second prime (4 seconds if have the revised prom - is a TSB on long cranks) with power through the fuel pump relay. Once the oil pressure exceeds about 4 psi the switch in the oil pressure sender (why there are 4 wires) turn on the fuel pump fr as long as the key is in run AND there is over 4 psi to keep the switch on. The switch is entirely different from the oil pressure sender half.

 

When the key is in run and either the fuel pump relay or the oil pressure sender is active, there should be 12vdc on the green connector. You can also turn the fuel pump on by applying 12vdc to the green connector. If not you have a wiring issue.

 

Other than the regulator, failure is usually didgital. You either have or do not have. Particularly if applying 12vdc to the green connector with the engine off you should see either zero or the maximum pressure the regulator allows (not really concerned about leaky injectors at this point.

[Ronnie]

I guess this one got turned over to a mechanic?

[buickguy62]

I haven't read all this posting, but originally it was stated that the Reatta would start good when cold, hard restarting when hot.  I've read that the in-tank fuel pumps can get hot and have reduced output, and that if the fuel in the tank helps keep the pump cool.  So, to the OP, when it starts hard are you 'low' on gas, say under 3/8 tank, does it also re-start hard when the tank is near full?

[padgett]

Or who knows, the horse may learn to sing.

[Guest VTRex]

I haven't given up. Just life gets in the way.

The car is starting harder now on initial startup ie when cold. I have to touch the gas peddle a little right after it starts to get it to idle smoothly. Then it runs ok. When I'm on the open road the car seems to run fine. Power is actually quite good.

I bought a filter and a new oil pressure sender/fuel pump switch. I know the one I have is bad cause my gauge goes nuts when the car is all warmed up. I just don't know if it has anything to do with my issue.

I couldn't get a reading on the green connector. It's pretty oxidized. But even though I can't get a reading the car is running so there must be at least some voltage going to the pump.

The question about how much fuel is in the tank is a good one. It doesn't seem to matter how much is in the tank. Plus, the car runs fine as long as I'm driving. So I can't make the case 100% for a new fuel pump. Except the 20psi.

The only thing that has improved is the smell of gas is gone since I changed the FPR. But I didn't read the pressure before I did that. Could I have put in a bad FPR? But that doesn't explain why the pressure drops to about 5 psi when I try to do a restart. Which is where my problem is!

Anyway, I'm going to put the fuel filter and sending unit in today. Really trying to narrow down everything before putting in a new pump.

[Guest VTRex]

I also want to mention something else I've noticed. It doesn't happen all of the time and it's unrelated to engine temp. Sometimes when I want to accelerate hard the power seems to fall totally flat. The engine doesn't stumble it just seems to loose about 100 hp. It only does that when I try to accelerate hard not while I'm driving. It seems to do it around 3000 rpm. Hit the gas at around 2k and the car pulls hard to about 3k and then falls flat. If I let off and try it again all is normal. Another wierd one but the problems almost have to be related.

[Guest VTRex]

I changed the filter. Same thing. 20 psi and car starts. Seems to run fine although I haven't driven it yet.

Can not get 12v at green connector. I even cut it off and wrapped the wire around thr VOM lead. Nadda!

[Guest Corvanti]

VT Rex: i don't want this to be mean sounding, i try to help folks. but from what you've said, and others suggesting solutions, i really think you need to replace the fuel pump!!!

[Guest VTRex]

I hear you! Just want to be sure. It's a pretty big job and I will continue to replace things that need replacing anyway. FPR was leaking. Didn't fix my problem but it did solve one problem. Fuel filter had 82k miles and 24 years on it. Needed replacing. Pressure sensor is causing reading issues. Needs replacing. I don't feel like I'm wasting money. Yet!

But in the end I'm more and more convinced of what you are saying. Could be next weekend's project! Yeehaw!

[padgett]

Too low fuel pressure (below about 40 psi) will do that, at low demand the computer will increase the pulse width to kep the volume right but as demand rises it can't keep up and will lean out.

ps low pressure at idle is not a commom fuel pump failure mode.

[Guest VTRex]

Ok. I ordered the pump through The Reatta Store. I also ordered the strainer and gasket set.

Will I need any special tools? What else?

Wish me luck!

[relospecialist]

Good Luck.  Sorry to join the conversation late.  Have read this thread in full as one day my 88 may be doing the same thing.

  In a wild ass guess I think you are going to find a clogged fuel pump strainer. 

You will only know when you remove the fuel pump.  Take the time and have the fuel tank cleaned of debris.   

Question?  When you changed the fuel filter was it clogged?  Did it have debris in the casing?

It may not be your engine getting hot as movement stirs up sediment that falls away while sitting. 

Not now but later I would be interested in the amount of ethanol is used in Vermont.   

[Ronnie]

There are several tutorials on my website that will help you with installing the pump. Fuel System

 

Since yoru pump builds some pressure, you might want to order a new pulsator to be sure the it is sealing as it should. You also want to inspect all connections between the pump where it connects to the fuel lines to make sure they are tight when you install the pump. A leak inside the tank between the pump and the lines can cause low fuel pressure.

[Guest VTRex]

Either way, since it's apart, the new pump goes in. There are several things it could be other than the pump. But as the tank is down, the new pump and sock go in and everything will get assembled correctly. Truth is, if this solves the problem, we won't really know what the problem was. If it doesn't, I'm back to square one. Well, actually, at least a couple more things have been eliminated. But I still don't understand how the pump can put out a consistant 20 psi without failing outright at some point. Does anyone have a '91 and know that 40+ psi is the right pressure?

[Ronnie]

Deleted.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[TexasJohn55]

Without stating exact specs, 40 is close enough, 20 don't get it. You may see a little less with vacuum on regulator at idle.

[2seater]

John is absolutely right, about double the pressure you have been seeing. The regulator is a different design on the Tuned Port style fuel rail, but the spec. is the same. 3bar or 43.5 psi without vacuum applied and it should drop approx. 1psi fuel pressure for every 2"Hg of engine vacuum with the hose connected and engine running, so mid 30's psi is about right on an idling engine.

[padgett]

20 psi all the time just does not sound right. As you get into the tank assembly check carefully for a cracked part or a failing rubber line (is a short one inside the tank) that is opening at 20 psi and just dumping fuel back in the tank.

 

Know you said you changed but I'd also plug the fuel return line out of the regulator and see if that makes any difference with 12v to the fuel pump - engine not running & disconnect quickly if goes above 40.

[Machiner 55]

Warning! This post has some pseudo-cussing interspersed throughout.

This language may be too strong for some viewers.

 

I recently had a problem like this.

 

I was replacing a leaking fuel tank on a recently acquired Reatta and decided to replace everything, working or not, because I didnt want to have to drop the tank again anytime soon, if ever.

So, I replaced the fuel pump, slipper filter and the Pulsator. This was the first car I've owned that had a Pulsator on it.

I'd thought about just using the piece of tubing supplied with the fuel pump in place of the Pulsator but, since the car came with one on the sending unit, I figured I might just as well replace it with a new one as well.

I found a replacement Pulsator on Ebay ( Sorry Ron, should have gotten it from TRS. Believe me, I really shoulda.).

It was a Carter brand unit, not an AC Delco or some other.

I reassembled everything and remounted the tank. I checked the pressure at the fuel rail. Perfecto! Fourty to fourty-five PSI!

I drove it around for a few days before parking it back in the garage so as to practically rebuild the entire front end (exaggeration but only slightly). Replaced both right and left CV axles and wheel bearings (the LH bearing and RH half-shaft were shot), new output shaft seals, Tx filter and severely leaking dipstick tube grommet, new oil pan gasket, sway bar links and bushings, reaction rod bushings, etc., etc. Too many items to mention.

Anyway...

About a week later, it was time to take it out to have an alignment done. But the car wouldn't start. It would turn over and sputter like it kinda wanted to start but it wouldn't stay running. At least not at first. I'd have to jockey the gas pedal to keep it running and after it warmed up, it would stay running, but just barely. I was able to get it to the shop for the alignment but I'm sure the guy performing the work was just a bit miffed that the car would die on him every time he went to move it.

Once I got it home, happier than all get-out that all the rattling, squeaking and banging noises from the front end were gone (having gotten rid of all the rattling, squeaking and banging noises from the rear end the week before (another story altogether)) but still extremely disturbed over the fact that the car ran perfectly before parking it for a week to work on the front end, and now it wasn't.

Now what the H*ll could cause that??!!

Typically, any problem one has can be attributed to the last thing worked on. Nothing I did on the front end would have any effect on drivability, would it?

And there couldn't be anything wrong with the fuel system as it was perfect when I parked it, right?

Just to be sure, I checked the fuel pressure anyway. You know, just to rule it out so I could concentrate on finding the real problem. The result of the fuel pressure check, you ask?

 

20 PSI. (See attached photo)

 

Twenty PSI.      TWENTY PSI !!!

 

That's two, followed by a zero, Pounds per Square Inch!

 

How the Bloody-L could that possibly be???!!!

 

My first thought and course of action was to check the pressure at the inlet to the fuel filter, thinking that some crap got into it during the tank replacement process. I fashioned a fitting to connect the fuel gauge to the plastic fuel line/filter coupler. Added power to the green fuel-prime connector and got... you guessed it. 20 P. S. I.

 

So... the problem is………. In the Freaking fuel tank!!!

 

The following week (it took me a week to gather the mojo and get it to flow) I dropped the fuel tank. What did I find, you ask. Well, I'm glad you asked because what I found was the Freaking PULSATOR blew out on its side (see attached photo in next post. ( Had to keep it a surprise.))

 

There was nothing wrong with the old one. I just changed it out, like I did with the fuel pump, as a preemptive measure.

Here I am now dropping the tank again to find this! What the H*ll! So…  I did what I should have done the first time. Say to H*ll with the freaking Pulsator and install the small section of tubing to eliminate the Pulsator altogether. Honestly, I can’t tell the difference in the sound of the pump when it’s running with or without the Pulsator in place. As mentioned in another post, the new pumps are of the turbine variety and run quiet anyway.

You may ask yourself what caused the Pulsator to fail the way it did (I know I did).  It is my belief that it was manufactured prior to, the now common practice of, adding ethanol to the gasoline. The seller may or may not have known this. Maybe he was just trying to clear out some old stock. Who knows? But it appears to me that the non-metal part swelled and pulled free of the metal shell thereby allowing fuel to leak back into the tank causing the pressure to drop to TWENTY PSI.

 

Moral of this story? If you replace the fuel pump and it comes with that little section of tubing, use it in place of the Pulsator and save yourself a whole lotta grief.

John F.

 

OK... I see now that the photo actually shows 19 psi. It was 20 when I went to grab the camera. That's how I remember it and that's the story I'm sticking to, so... just think 19 psi everywhere it references 20 psi. That way it'll jive with the pic and that will save me a bunch more editing.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[Machiner 55]

Photos connected to prior post.

 

 

[Guest Flacko9091]

I'd change the fuel filter for the heck if it. Easier than replacing the pump. My real bet though is probably the pump getting weak and almost allowing a vapor lock situation to happen under the hood with hot weather and a hot soaking engine.

I had this problem years ago on a 3.0 liter 1989 Ford Taurus. Ran fine cold, ran fine as long as air was moving under the hood. Eventually it got bad enough that it would stall at a stop light in hot weather.

Fuel pressure checked fine, but the fuel delivery flowrate was too low. Had the tank pulled and new fuel pump installed and it ran fine for another 100k when I sold it.

[Guest Flacko9091]

I wrote my post before I read all of the other pump replacement posts....sorry.

So the piece of tube can be used in place of the pulsator? What is the function of the pulsator?

As for ethanol in fuel it can mess up things in cars of our vintage. I've owned many Allantes and known others that have. A common problem on the'89-'92 Allantes with the 4.5 liter V8 is the fuel injector windings shorting out due to ethanol eating the wire insulation. My neighbor also had to install a new set of injectors in his '91 corvette with 33k miles because four of the injectors were shorted out.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Flacko9091 (see edit history)

[Guest Corvanti]

AFAIK, the pulsator makes the fuel pump quieter (like a muffler)... i don't see noise as a problem  - it's not that loud without one.

 

i don't want this to sound mean, but after 4 pages with info coming in spurts - the OP needs a new fuel pump, period!

 

i'll apologize to all if that is not the problem.

[Guest Flacko9091]

VTRex,

Do you know if the fuel pressure was only 20 psi when the engine was running ok cold?

Just curious.

[Guest VTRex]

Wow! So many great posts here!

Pump and all is in. The tank was really rusty on top so I put in a new tank too. As everyone has said: might as well while it's out.

(The fuel filter had been replaced a week before but had no effect.)

And... Perfect! Or should I say purrrfect?!

I never realized or had totally forgotten how much power this car has. At least compared to what it was. I drove to several places, shut of the car, started several minutes later; perfect starts everytime!

In the end, we can't really know what it was. Everything was replaced and checked for proper assembly. My guess is fuel pump. Duh!

Things fixed along the way: regulator ( smell of gas problem), oil pressure sensor ( flakey readings when warm), fuel filter ( just 'cause), pump, tank, etc. All told, maybe $350 in parts. Not too bad!

And a chance to meet you guys! Thanks! Thanks a million!

[Dandy Dave]

Not Sure. Apples to Oranges. Had a problem with a 1990 suburban a while ago. Being you are in the same time frame it very well could be the same problem. Temp sending unit was bad. Not the one to the gage. 1 wire. The one that talked to the computer. 2 wires. Dandy Dave!