Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Hi Guys, I'm looking at a '38 coupe for a nice restoration project. Car is complete and solid but a previous owner unfortunately made a few mods. I'm looking for a little clarification here. In the pics, does the rear differential look correct? Also, I see the car now has a Mustang rack and pinion but have the control arms also been changed? They do not look correct to me. Current owner says he's pretty sure he has the original equipment which I'd like to switch back to. These are the only images I have right now.Thanks in advance for your help.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 The rear of the differential on my '33 (and I think on later 1930s Plymouths) has a welded cover, the one in your photo has a bolted on cover. A stock '38 Plymouth will have a beam axle front end with fore and aft leaf springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 This '36 Dodge frame isn't a great example, but it was one I found for you quite quickly. What you're looking at in this photo is nearly the same as your car would have been, except your's would have modern tubular shock absorbers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Thanks Guys, I was just going to ask if some one could share an image. It seems there may be a little more replacement here than I'd anticipated.Also, I see in the image you've posted the differential is mounted beneath the leaf springs. In the photo I posted the diff is mounted above the springs. Which is correct? Edited June 8, 2015 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry W Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) You may want to consider finding a complete rolling stock chassis, perhaps from someone building a street rod. It may be easier than trying to piece together what you have. There's a '38 Dodge currently being parted out in the Buy/Sell section of this forum, don't know how close it comes to being the same. Edited June 8, 2015 by Larry W (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 You may want to consider finding a complete rolling stock chassis, perhaps from someone building a street rod. It may be easier than trying to piece together what you have. There's a '38 Dodge currently being parted out in the Buy/Sell section of this forum, don't know how close it comes to being the same.To that end, you may find that you can get a pretty good price for the modified frame you have. To buy a new Mustang II front end can cost up to $2,000, plus the cost of installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Isn't there a serial number stamped on the frame rail?Also, realistically how much luck would I have finding another, complete and rust free frame from a '38 coupe without searching for 2 years?Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpage Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I have a good hypoid rear end from a '36 but getting it to you might be pricey. I think that the reara are all pretty much the same.I think you could find running gears and a frame if you advertised a little on some of the forums. Guys are rodding a lot of these cars; bad for the cars but good for the guys that need parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwellens Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) 36 Mopars may be different. My parts book indicates 37-48 is the same housing and other parts are 37 and up. See attached.MOPAR Rear.pdf Edited June 9, 2015 by hwellens (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 36 Mopars may be different. My parts book indicates 37-48 is the same housing and other parts are 37 and up. See attached.Yes, there was a big change on the rear axle starting in '37. The '33 through '35 or '36 are quite different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 The control arms in the first post are MII. So it has a cross member welded in as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpcdfan Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Greg… you're welcome to look at my original 38 coupe I recently purchased. Two owner original paint car which has been sitting in the same garage the past 40 years. I'm not too far from you in Colton, near San Bernardino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Greg… you're welcome to look at my original 38 coupe I recently purchased. Two owner original paint car which has been sitting in the same garage the past 40 years. I'm not too far from you in Colton, near San Bernardino. Hey Thanks, I may just take you up on that! Great pics, great car! I guess you were just the right guy at the right time, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 There's a complete '39 frame here in the Twin Cities for sale for $350. It's not correct for your '38, in that it has coil spring independent front suspension, rather than the tube axle and leaf springs that yours has. Perhaps someone else following this thread can use it, though. BTW, does anyone know off hand what the gearing is in this rear end? I guess that my point is that when you find a correct frame, you probably wont have to pay a lot for it. http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/pts/5062248379.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Is that a coupe or sedan frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Is that a coupe or sedan frame?Greg, the ad doesn't say. The thing with frames in general is that they are mostly all the same. The differences mostly lie in the suspension. Usually you'll find different springs for different body styles (coupes, two doors, etc.) You also find different rear end gearing because of different options - stick transmissions, automatics, etc. With later cars it was common to find additional bracing in the frames of convertibles because their bodies much more prone to flexing. Of course with many brands of cars, the actual length of the frame will differ between standard models and deluxe ones. You won't be able to use a Dodge frame, even though it's nearly identical, because Dodges are a couple of inches longer than Plymouths. I guess that I'll go on to say that I, personally, wouldn't pass up a decent sedan frame just because the springs would be a little stiffer. Others may differ with me, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpcdfan Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Hey Thanks, I may just take you up on that! Great pics, great car! I guess you were just the right guy at the right time, huh?The fellow that owned this car was a WPC Club member that knew my dad and I. He bought the car from the original owner in the 70s and drove it as his daily driver for a few years. It's been off the road since the late 70s. He gave me a copy of the original 1938 title with the original owners name and address. Car was bought new here in San Bernardino. Got it running, it runs great but of course the fuel pump is out and the water pump leaks from sitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Hudsy, I wouldn't be too concerned about spring differences either but are you saying the wheel base was the same for coupe and sedan? dpcdfan, That's the car everyone is looking for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Yep, that's what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I didn't realize that. It will certainly make things a lot easier. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 dpcdfan, My first car, which I bought for $20 fifty years ago, was an early production '38 Ply like yours. Mine was a four door, however. Are you familiar with the difference between the initial '38s and the later ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I don't know if dpcdfan is familiar with the differences, however I'm not.......but I'd like to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpcdfan Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 dpcdfan, My first car, which I bought for $20 fifty years ago, was an early production '38 Ply like yours. Mine was a four door, however. Are you familiar with the difference between the initial '38s and the later ones?Hudsy… even though I've had Chrysler product cars for 45 years, I didn't know there was a difference between early and later production '38s. Us California guys, Greg and I are dying to know the differences and how you can tell my car is early production. It's never too late to learn something new, and there's always something unique and different when it comes to Chrysler product cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpage Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 I think the biggest change was the hypoid differential that became available in '36. Many say that they came out in '37 but I had 2 '36's with hypoid axles. The width of the housing is the same as far as I know but there may have been some gear ratio change. Sure, the shock mounting hardware and the spring shackles are different but I think the axle housing itself is very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 11, 2015 Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) When the new '38 Plymouths first started showing up at the dealers they were greeted with a great deal of derision by the public. People laughed at them and said that they looked "bug eyed". Now, dpcdfan (and others) please don't be offended by this. It's just that it's fairly obvious that the headlights on these early model stick too far out and, as a result, give the cars a somewhat laughable appearance. This simply infuriated the dealers who quickly made there feelings known to the factory. The factory reacted to their perceived blunder by modifying the position of the headlights on the grille shells on the models as soon as they could. My recollection is that they moved them back four inches and down two inches, which made a substantial difference in their appearance. I doubt seriously if anyone would have had success getting the factory update the early '38s that had already been sold and I have to think that in time the public must have gotten used to the look of the early ones. As I said, my first car was an early '38 Plymouth, so I have fond feelings about them and don't mind the looks of them. I've come to realize over the course of my life that while some people see details like this as glaring, others simply don't, and don't care a bit. I've never thought about the details of the matter much, and I've never had a '38 parts book to look at, but I have to think that if someone wanted to "update" their '38 to the later look it might even involve changing the whole grille shell, rather than just the headlight mounts. A few years back, I was at the annual "Back To The Fifties" car show at our Minnesota State Fairgrounds. It's a very large show with many thousands of people and cars in attendance. In fact, it's one of the nation's largest. As I was walking along I came across two '38 Plymouths parked along a curb, one in front of the other. Both of their owners were there, so I asked them if they new which one was the early production model and which one was made a couple of months later. They were completely puzzled and had no idea. I told them to compare the two cars closely for a while and I would be back after I browsed around for a while. Later, when I returned, they said that they couldn't see any possible difference at all. When I explained it to them, they were generally silenced as they stood back and studied their two cars. Amazement followed. It was a hoot! Here's a couple of picture from Google Images: Early '38: http://forums.aaca.org/uploads/monthly_11_2011/post-31738-143138733261.jpg Later '38: http://www.centralpastreetmachines.org/Member-Cars-files/RonFox/RonFox-38-Plymouth.jpg James Sheehan Edited June 11, 2015 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hudsy, As a matter of fact, I did know this....sort of. I'd read about it earlier but I didn't realize the change came at the factory part way through the production year. I thought this was a dealer correction for any customers who wanted it. Does anyone have a serial number/body number break on this? How early in production was is changed? Thanks again! Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Somewhere around here I have a book called "The Plymouth Story", or maybe it's "The Story of Plymouth". It's one of those Crestline books, I think. It's been a long time since I read about the issue, but I'm pretty sure that I recall it stating that the change occurred in a matter of weeks, and not months. The change did happen at the factory, not the dealerships, although maybe some retrofitting did take place at the dealerships. I've never read that, though. Edited June 12, 2015 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I don't know if it would be of any help, but someone in MI is trying to find a home for '36 front and rear axles: http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/pts/5066750626.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Do yourself a favor, if you don't want the modified suspension don't buy the car. There are lots of late 30s Plymouths and Dodges out there and some of them are in great original condition. Buy the best original car you can afford, it will be a lot better and cheaper than trying to fix one up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Somewhere around here I have a book called "The Plymouth Story", or maybe it's "The Story of Plymouth". It's one of those Crestline books, I think. It's been a long time since I read about the issue, but I'm pretty sure that I recall it stating that the change occurred in a matter of weeks, and not months. The change did happen at the factory, not the dealerships, although maybe some retrofitting did take place at the dealerships. I've never read that, though.February of 1938 is when the headlamp change went into production. They state that they wanted something looking more like the other Chrysler Corporation models. Those headlamps were lower and farther back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 "lower and further back" and less laughable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'll have to compare both of mine now and see if they're the same or different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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