Standard 6 Exhaust/Overheating- Holden Body

[hidden_hunter]

Hi all, just signed up for the forum as it seems like a great place to get info on the standard six and other prewar buicks. I've recently picked up a 1926 standard six (US made with Holden Body) and have a few questions that hopefully you guys might be able to help out with. We picked it up in a non running condition, deceased estate which the son claims it was running back in 2010 but was garaged due to it overheating within a few KM of starting. The car is in almost original condition with no modernisation having taken place (so vacuum tank is still there for instance and running 6v)

I wanted to give it a once over before attempting to turn it over myself (especially given the previous stated history) and have started checking out the various obvious causes for overheating.

1) The fan appears to be striking the side of the rad housing, I'm thinking that someone has replaced the fan at some stage with a 4 blade fan, should the fan be 2 or 4 blades? It's a bit hard to tell if it's just the pitch causing it to strike, is this something that can be adjusted?

2) The carb heater was stuck on heat, how likely is this to have contributed to the overheating that was described to us?

3) I found the culprit that was responsible for the jamming, it's the first exhaust valve and it the central bolt seems to be jammed tight - any suggestions on how to loosen it up?

4) Is this a standard part shared with other GM cars? I've seen ones floating around that seem specific to the buick and they're over $300 for about 1&1/2" of steel with a butterfly valve... I suspect the part might of had it

I've included a picture of the exhaust valve that's currently giving me grief just in case I haven't described it quite right, any suggestions would be appreciated or any other checks outside of the usual that I should look at before attempting to turn it over

[dibarlaw]

hidden--hunter:

Great to hear from another standard owner. My 1925 also overheats and we are still working thru these issues. The exhaust manifold valve (Part #192510) being stuck closed will indeed add to overheating problems. I would suggest soaking the unit in a penetrating solution. I believe there is a acetone/ATF mixture others on the forum recommend. Let it soak for several days. Then carefully tap with a brass hammer the shaft ends and also use a hardwood dowel tapping it against the butterfly plate. Patients will win out !! If it does not move, repeat. Last resort will be to carefully use a torch.

The fan should be 4 blade and is slightly adjustable to align the flat belt to the lower pulley. Send more photos as you can. We have to get you back on the road.

Larry

[hidden_hunter]

hidden--hunter:

Great to hear from another standard owner. My 1925 also overheats and we are still working thru these issues. The exhaust manifold valve (Part #192510) being stuck closed will indeed add to overheating problems. I would suggest soaking the unit in a penetrating solution. I believe there is a acetone/ATF mixture others on the forum recommend. Let it soak for several days. Then carefully tap with a brass hammer the shaft ends and also use a hardwood dowel tapping it against the butterfly plate. Patients will win out !! If it does not move, repeat. Last resort will be to carefully use a torch.

The fan should be 4 blade and is slightly adjustable to align the flat belt to the lower pulley. Send more photos as you can. We have to get you back on the road.

Larry

Thanks mate, I'll take some more pictures today (before my hands get too greasy )

Will try some other products and mixtures and see how it goes, worst case scenario and I do have to buy a new one is it something can be tracked down from other makes/models or is it buick specific?

[danhar1960]

I take it you're an Aussie mate.

Claims it was running back when............... If I had a dollar every time some bugger said that.

So, where the bloody hell are ya ?? :)

Danny

[hidden_hunter]

I take it you're an Aussie mate.

Claims it was running back when............... If I had a dollar every time some bugger said that.

So, where the bloody hell are ya ?? :)

Danny

lol, the story did check out as far as we could tell and the vicroads permit lines up with their story about when it was taken off the road (prior to it becoming a deceased estate). It's half the fun figuring this stuff out, so long as it doesn't have terminal damage!

Correct on me being an Aussie, Melbourne to be precise. On a side note the buick even still has the dealer plate on it from the only victorian buick dealer as well (Lanes in Melbourne). Are there any good local part sources or is it import only for parts?

As for pictures, here's where the fan is striking - belt is a leather one

I've also cleaned up the exhaust valve as best I could and soaked it for a couple of hours in some commercial degreasear but not even a hint of movement - I think the metal on the actual valve might also have had it (though I suppose I could use a washer to make up for all the missing metal if I could free the pin)

[1939_Buick]

Welcome to the forum

Are you a member of the Buick Australia club?

You could advertise in the monthly magazine for parts.

There are 36 off 1925 Buicks listed in the 2006-2007 Register (cannot find my later copy) Some are standards.

From 1928-41 parts book

group 3.647 part 173760 Valve, Exhaust manifold 1925-26 std 6, 1927-28 115

group 3.645 part 214177 Body, Exhaust manifold valve 1926 Std 6, 1927-28 115

Do not have the part number for the 1925 Body, Exhaust manifold valve

Cannot see in my book Part #192510 as post 2 above

Edited February 23, 2014 by 1939_buick (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

Welcome to the forum

Are you a member of the Buick Australia club?

You could advertise in the monthly magazine for parts.

There are 36 off 1925 Buicks listed in the 2006-2007 Register (cannot find my later copy) Some are standards.

From 1928-41 parts book

group 3.647 part 173760 Valve, Exhaust manifold 1925-26 std 6, 1927-28 115

group 3.645 part 214177 Body, Exhaust manifold valve 1926 Std 6, 1927-28 115

Do not have the part number for the 1925 Body, Exhaust manifold valve

Cannot see in my book Part #192510 as post 2 above

Thanks mate, I believe the previous owner was part of the buick club (so it might even be on your register) and we'll probably join soon. I managed to clean the part off a bit more and it's stamped buick so I'm guessing it's not shared with anything else. Ours is a '26 car (complete with the original operators manual!)

The belt being loose seems like the most likely cause of it striking the side of the rad, there seems to be enough give in it that it could also cause it to not spin the fan blade as well (which would have also contributed the reported overheating issue)

On a side note about the buick club, do they do scrutineering for VicRoads permits?

[1939_Buick]

Ok. I have cleaned my glasses and counted the 1926's: 31 listed

Apart from being a member I am not active in the club. As I do not have a running car here, not sure about VicRoads permit. Will send a PM to Brian Buick8/40 who is active in the club

Edited February 23, 2014 by 1939_buick (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

Ok. I have cleaned my glasses and counted the 1926's: 31 listed

Apart from being a member I am not active in the club. As I do not have a running car here, not sure about VicRoads permit. Will send a PM to Brian Buick8/40 who is active in the club

Thanks mate, probably a couple of months before it's going again but overall the oily bits don't seem to be in bad condition

[buick840]

Ok. I have cleaned my glasses and counted the 1926's: 31 listed

Apart from being a member I am not active in the club. As I do not have a running car here, not sure about VicRoads permit. Will send a PM to Brian Buick8/40 who is active in the club

Hi Hidden Hunter

I think you'll find the club would require a road worthy to be supplied with the Vic Roads application for any new Permit, best check with the Club direct though.

Who was the previous owner that passed away..............I may have known him.

As for parts you might like to try checking on ebay Australia, a Buick member that lives in sydney often lists NOS parts for 20's Buick

His ebay name is buick8496min and his ebay store is Vintage Buick Land............never know, he may have what you need.

Good Luck

[hidden_hunter]

Hi Hidden Hunter

I think you'll find the club would require a road worthy to be supplied with the Vic Roads application for any new Permit, best check with the Club direct though.

Who was the previous owner that passed away..............I may have known him.

As for parts you might like to try checking on ebay Australia, a Buick member that lives in sydney often lists NOS parts for 20's Buick

His ebay name is buick8496min and his ebay store is Vintage Buick Land............never know, he may have what you need.

Good Luck

The car was previously owned by mr parsons (I think from Wang) , who died a couple of years back

Thanks for the ebay tip off, I'll keep my eye out

[dibarlaw]

Hidden--hunter:

The degreaser will only degrease, You need to soak it in a penetrating oil product that breaks down the rust bond. And do it for several days and

not for several hours. It works slowly. All the parts of this unit are removable. The fan hub may need rebuilt since you mention looseness. Is there

movement front to back or were you referring to just the belt tension?

Best Regards:

Larry in USA

[hidden_hunter]

Hidden--hunter:

The degreaser will only degrease, You need to soak it in a penetrating oil product that breaks down the rust bond. And do it for several days and

not for several hours. It works slowly. All the parts of this unit are removable. The fan hub may need rebuilt since you mention looseness. Is there

movement front to back or were you referring to just the belt tension?

Best Regards:

Larry in USA

Got it sitting in some now I'll leave it a couple of days and see how it goes but I suspect that it's dead. As for the fan belt, there is probably about 1-2mm of play front to back

[jbbuick22]

Hidden-hunter,

You can remove the valve plate and block the pipe to the carb. It was needed when gas was like kerosene.

I think a lot of us here have done this on our cars that have carb heat.

JB

1922-6-55 Sport Touring

[hidden_hunter]

Hidden-hunter,

You can remove the valve plate and block the pipe to the carb. It was needed when gas was like kerosene.

I think a lot of us here have done this on our cars that have carb heat.

JB

1922-6-55 Sport Touring

I want to try and keep everything working as it would when it rolled off the factory floor (regardless of how useful it is these days). I can't do that currently at the moment either because the whole pin is jammed tight .

The owners manual is actually really funny when you read it today, can you imagine a modern buick recommending you set fire to your petrol to see how cleanly it burns?

[danhar1960]

I want to try and keep everything working as it would when it rolled off the factory floor (regardless of how useful it is these days). I can't do that currently at the moment either because the whole pin is jammed tight

You may find that with the far higher octanes of modern day fuels, and ethanol added, you may be creating a bigger problem by having it working than you are with having it blocked.

Danny

[ROD W]

Hidden hunter

There is adjustment in the radiator top and bottom. A threaded rod adjusts the top, and the two bolts at the bottom of the radiator surround can be moved. Try just bending the fan blades back slightly

In Aust you don,t need to use the heat control. Leave the exhaust valve in the open position. Mine has been completely removed. Also close off the heat to

the carburettor from the manifold as it burns a hole in the heat riser tube causing poor running and requiring a new tube. You will need to remove the carby

and heat riser anyway to check for holes. As Larry was saying if there is play in the fan hub (wobble in the fan) it may be the bearing inside has worn out.

The hub runs in an oil bath. There is an adjuster for the belt tension. Contact other people with 26 and 27 bucks in the club, Their sure to have spare parts.

Rod

Edited February 23, 2014 by ROD W (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

You may find that with the far higher octanes of modern day fuels, and ethanol added, you may be creating a bigger problem by having it working than you are with having it blocked.

Danny

Good point, thankfully we don't have mandated E10 like you guys in Sydney do but defiantly something to be aware of

Thanks for the advice rod, I had intended to run it on the open position (it's currently jammed on heat) - will also take the opportunity to inspect the carby (which incidentally has the cork float in it still)

Do you need to remove the rad to get at the adjuster or should you be able to get at it?

[Mark Shaw]

I am sure you will need to heat the valve body to free the butterfly.

Heat the body and quench the rod with penetrating oil, then gently tap the brass shaft as described before.

With patience, you should be able to get incremental movements until it moves to full open.

[hidden_hunter]

I am sure you will need to heat the valve body to free the butterfly.

Heat the body and quench the rod with penetrating oil, then gently tap the brass shaft as described before.

With patience, you should be able to get incremental movements until it moves to full open.

anything to be mindful of when applying heat outside of the ordinary?

[critterpainter]

Rod W is dead-on with his advice about the carby heat. You don't want any. block it off from both ends. The fan hub has 2 small gears in it. One is rather fragile and known to stick and break. If this happens the bushing runs dry and the fan starts to wobble.

Bill

[hidden_hunter]

would the best way of blocking it off but keeping it look right be to remove the butterfly valve from the EV and cap both ends where it normally goes?

Is the gear in the fan a standard size or is it something that is specific to the buick?

[ROD W]

Just been looking at where your fan is hitting. The fan should be in the middle of the radiator not over to the side. I think the belt might be too long and when you try to tighten it , the fan is pulled over to the side. If the fan hub has oil, it is probably O.K, turn the fan around till you find the plug where you can add oil. Don,t put too much in, it will only run out and be thrown every where when the engine is running. To block off and remove the heat riser and carby, there are two bolts on the top of the inlet manifold, and two at the back on the exhaust manifold, also remove the fuel line from the vacuum tank. Cut out a piece of flat metal to the shape of the exhaust manifold, drill two holes in the correct positions for the bolt holes, use a suitable gasket.

[hidden_hunter]

Just been looking at where your fan is hitting. The fan should be in the middle of the radiator not over to the side. I think the belt might be too long and when you try to tighten it , the fan is pulled over to the side. If the fan hub has oil, it is probably O.K, turn the fan around till you find the plug where you can add oil. Don,t put too much in, it will only run out and be thrown every where when the engine is running. To block off and remove the heat riser and carby, there are two bolts on the top of the inlet manifold, and two at the back on the exhaust manifold, also remove the fuel line from the vacuum tank. Cut out a piece of flat metal to the shape of the exhaust manifold, drill two holes in the correct positions for the bolt holes, use a suitable gasket.

The belt is a leather one and it doesn't appear to be very tight (as in it seems to slip on the hub if you pull it to spin the fan) , there does seem to be some movement in the hub laterally but don't know if it's just doing that because the belt is too loose

[50jetback]

Your fan belt is too long.

The fan belt is adjusted by loosening a single bolt on the fan bracket assembly where it fixes on the fan bracket support on the front of the block.

By loosening the bolt it allows the whole fan assembly to swing left and right to put tension on the belt. With your belt being too long it allows the fan assembly to swing too far to the right and is causing the fan blades the hit the radiator surround.

[hidden_hunter]

Your fan belt is too long.

The fan belt is adjusted by loosening a single bolt on the fan bracket assembly where it fixes on the fan bracket support on the front of the block.

By loosening the bolt it allows the whole fan assembly to swing left and right to put tension on the belt. With your belt being too long it allows the fan assembly to swing too far to the right and is causing the fan blades the hit the radiator surround.

it only looks like it has happened fairly recently but the belt looks quite old (leather type), I'll have a fiddle this weekend and see what I find out and report back. Thanks for the suggestions everyone

[dibarlaw]

Hidden Hunter

The fan on my 1925-25 was very loose and I thought it was leaking and soaking the leather belt. When I took it apart it was packed with crusty grease. I bored out the cast iron body and machined bronze bearings. The main shaft gear was good and the fiber gear which helps distribute the oil along the shaft was also good. This part was available from BOBS. After I reinstalled, all seemed to work well for a while then it seemed it was still leaking. So I simply made a replacement interior body of aluminum, new shaft and sealed bearings. Construction article in the Service tips book sold by the BCA or in a 1987? Buick Bugle article. I also did a patent search and have the US patent drawings for this type of unit.

Larry

[dibarlaw]

hidden_hunter:

This is what the unit looks like before the fan is re-attached.

Larry

[hidden_hunter]

Your fan belt is too long.

The fan belt is adjusted by loosening a single bolt on the fan bracket assembly where it fixes on the fan bracket support on the front of the block.

By loosening the bolt it allows the whole fan assembly to swing left and right to put tension on the belt. With your belt being too long it allows the fan assembly to swing too far to the right and is causing the fan blades the hit the radiator surround.

I think we might have a winner, when I reset the position of the arm to that of the manual (and centered) the belt is totally loose. I've taken a picture of the belt (sorry guys, only had a metric tape measure) - how long should it be?

If this is indeed the problem, can you get these in Australia? or are they an O/S order?

The hub seems to spin freely so hopefully this was the only issue :/

[50jetback]

I think we might have a winner, when I reset the position of the arm to that of the manual (and centered) the belt is totally loose. I've taken a picture of the belt (sorry guys, only had a metric tape measure) - how long should it be?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]236850[/ATTACH]

If this is indeed the problem, can you get these in Australia? or are they an O/S order?

The hub seems to spin freely so hopefully this was the only issue :/

Don't think you will find one locally - this may be your easiest bet

http://bobsautomobilia.com/shop/cooling-system/fan-belt-leather-1925-28-std.-fb-258.html

[hidden_hunter]

Would places make them?

[danhar1960]

I often get flat and round section endless belts made here in Sydney by a mob called Brenma.

I'll be there in the next day or 2. If you have some sizes I can ask for you then.

Failing that, I'm sure there would be others in Melbourne that would also do it.

Danny

[1939_Buick]

They have a branch in Melbourne http://www.brendma.com/

At one time I worked in the same street

[hidden_hunter]

given I don't know the history of the car/belt it might be a good idea to just replace it - does anyone have the original spec it's supposed to be? or the estimated cost of getting one made?

ps you guys are awesome

[hidden_hunter]

I've got a dimension for the belt of 1 1/4" X 33", does that sound right?

[dibarlaw]

Hidden hunter:

The 33" is what is on my 1925-25 and the reference I have from the April 1971 AACA Antique Automobile Dave Chambers article also verifies this. Same for 1925-1928. even the old Gates#840.

The adjuster mount and hub should be towards the manifold side of the engine. The fan should be centered to the radiator.

Larry

[hidden_hunter]

Hidden hunter:

The 33" is what is on my 1925-25 and the reference I have from the April 1971 AACA Antique Automobile Dave Chambers article also verifies this. Same for 1925-1928. even the old Gates#840.

The adjuster mount and hub should be towards the manifold side of the engine. The fan should be centered to the radiator.

Larry

[ATTACH=CONFIG]237277[/ATTACH]

Thanks mate, that would make the current one about 5" too long! also explains why it was over to the far right on the ignition side of the engine trying to take up the slack (and fouling on the side of the rad housing). Is 1&1/4" the correct width?

[dibarlaw]

Yes it is to be 1 1/4"

[hidden_hunter]

Yes it is to be 1 1/4"

Thanks mate, really appreciate your help (and everyone elses!)

I'll try and film it's first (re)start and share it on here

[dibarlaw]

hidden-hunter:

How is it going? Is your Standard 6 breathing again?