Steve_Mack_CT Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Lot's of discussion about problems that are a result of driver error i.e. - going too fast for condiitons, modifying vehicls with a lift kit as Dave suggests and not accounting for subsequent change in suspension geometrics and center of gravity - but getting back to the matter at hand, in terms of the machine, I think this is no different than any other approach - you want the right tool for the job. Certainly in some cases a good 2WD, specifically FWD with quality snows like Blizzak will get the job done, we just outfitted my son's car for just that reason - he lives in a relatively flat area with a short commute - the snows are adequate. If I was plowing or in an area that got more snow regularly, I would definitely go 4WD.Dave, not all AWD systems are solely designed for all weather use only. VW puts these in higher end sporting Porsche models as well as in the TT - comparing these is like apples and oranges, my point being the application matters - my suggestion for the OP would be to decide that first and then pick the best of the breed for your particular application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) I live in rural snowy and hilly PA. I have both 4 X 4 and AWD vehicles. Both work well but the AWD Grand Cherokee just seems to handle deep snow better. True I sacrifice a few MPG with all wheel drive but who cares, we're absolutely awash in oil and gas. Stuff is coming out of our ears and more found every day. Let the good times roll..........................Bob Edited February 14, 2014 by Bhigdog (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Dave, not all AWD systems are solely designed for all weather use only. VW puts these in higher end sporting Porsche models as well as in the TT - comparing these is like apples and oranges, my point being the application matters - my suggestion for the OP would be to decide that first and then pick the best of the breed for your particular application.Absolutely. And in the rain, where traction improvements generally/completely overcome the added weight (because the effect is minimal relative to snow) the choice is AWD every time (for safety/handling). However ALL of those systems, even the excellent VW/Audi system which is the best of the bunch, add weight to the vehicle and wheels which would otherwise not be there. Given the choice of trying to do an emergency stop or maneuver in an Audi A4 at normal winter travel speeds around a curved road on ice or snow I would choose the 2WD version over the 4WD version any day. The best systems minimize the difference, but none can completely eliminate it. Trying to accelerate around the same corner (however unwise) the choice would be different. However if (personal preference) I'm going to error in my choice for winter driving I'd rather error on the side of getting stuck for traction than on the side of sliding off the road and/or into something due to multiple momentums. I find it more important to avoid obstacles and other drivers in snowstorms than to conveniently accelerate away from them after I've avoided them (if indeed I have).And getting stuck is easier and cheaper to fix should non-avoidance become an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdW13 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Starting in April we are going to autocross our vw phaeton. It weighs 5400 pounds and has AWD. I will know more about accelerating an AWD in corners after that. We just missed one last weekend that was in six inches of snow. That would have been great fun but we didnt read about it until yesterday. I sure wouldnt want 4x4 for that. How much snow do you guys consider a lot on the roadway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan at larescorp Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 How much snow do you guys consider a lot on the roadway?14 inches is getting up there. Anything less is just another trip to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Starting in April we are going to autocross our vw phaeton. It weighs 5400 pounds and has AWD. I will know more about accelerating an AWD in corners after that. We just missed one last weekend that was in six inches of snow. That would have been great fun but we didnt read about it until yesterday. I sure wouldnt want 4x4 for that. How much snow do you guys consider a lot on the roadway?Beyond one's own ability to traverse it. I'd like to add one more thing. More weight = more traction. This is why often times sand bags are carried in the backs of pick-ups in slick situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Just curious, how many states allow studded tires? When we were allowed to use them, they really worked well with 4wd or 2wd on ice. I felt much safer knowing that skidding would be reduced and that traction would always be there. Our great state must have done one of their famous studies on the erosion effect caused by studded tires, vs. safety on our highways. Even if they were allowed for a few winter months it makes more sense than all the accidents we are seeing. Just venting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 For an old farm boy that ventures off of the road like me, there's nothing better than an old 4WD Truck. The best ones are old school with locking hubs that you spin in by hand and a transfer case that you shift the old fashion way. When it is locked in, You know it is in. Some of these newer 4WD you have to guess ahead of time if you need it. Some of the Chevys/ GMC's from the eighties we use to have to back up to get them to fully disengage after you were on hard ground. Nutz! Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Just curious, how many states allow studded tires? When we were allowed to use them, they really worked well with 4wd or 2wd on ice. I felt much safer knowing that skidding would be reduced and that traction would always be there. Our great state must have done one of their famous studies on the erosion effect caused by studded tires, vs. safety on our highways. Even if they were allowed for a few winter months it makes more sense than all the accidents we are seeing. Just venting.There are darn few places where studded snow tires are not permitted, but among the glaring exceptions are Wisconsin and Minnesota. Would somebody please explain to me why they're OK in New Orleans but not in Wausau?:confused:See: http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/laws/studded-tires/I'd like to add one more thing. More weight = more traction. This is why often times sand bags are carried in the backs of pick-ups in slick situations.More weight as a percentage over the drive wheels, yes. More weight in general, certainly not. Anyone who's experienced being in a VW Beetle in the snow driving rings around supposedly invincible Jeeps (there just weren't that many 4WDs @ that time) can tell you: a lighter car doesn't need as much traction to move in snow as a heavy car does. The best snow car I ever owned was a 1971 Datsun 510. Driving around stuck and spinning Buicks and Wagoneers on snowy hills in Pittsburgh was a daily occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddyshack Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Dave,Thanks for finding the studded tire study. I am amazed at the states that allow them and those that don't. It does not make any sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I think this car is AWD - from the web Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) I'd like to bring up something that I think a lot of folks don't quite realize about winter driving. When you drive down the snowy or icy highway and come upon SUVs in the ditch, or upside down in the median, there may be a reason that has nothing to due with the type of "drive' system or, for that matter, the skill of the driver. I'm a 64 year old life long Minnesotan and I noticed long ago that winter handling characteristics changed when wide tires became popular for appearance sake. I have believed for a long, long time that tire width is an important factor in maintaining traction control when underway. I believe that in many cases the increase in tire width over the years has long past the point of diminishing returns, traction-wise. Big, clunky, well-lugged tires can be really impressive in the snow, but when it comes to ice they simply glide over it because the vehicles weight is so dissipated across the wide surface. The vehicles with the widest tires for their weight are undoubtedly the SUVs that every one feels so safe in. So, in my opinion, we're really almost talking about two fairly different things when it comes to winter driving - traction to accelerate and traction to hold the road and stop. We're all pleased with our various multi-wheel drive systems when it comes to starting out from a stop, but those same mean-looking, fancy wheel/tire combos can scare the absolute hell out of you when you go into a curve on the highway while traveling a little too fast. I'm sure that many of you will find my thoughts on the subject of tire width a bit surprising, but I honestly believe that tires that are wider than they should be is what sends people flying off of the road in many cases. On the subject of preferences,I've come to enjoy either AWD or 4WD for city driving in the winter (they're both fine with me) because it is so tiring sitting at stop lights or signs with spinning tires. I like to be able to accelerate quickly. Looking back at all of the cars that I've owned and driven in the winter, I have to say that my favorites were my several old Saab 99s. They were front wheel drive and came with skinny 6.50 X 15 tires. They were sure-footed when it came to taking off, but most importantly, stopped well and didn't ever want to drift on the highway. Edited February 19, 2014 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 My wife just bought a new Honda crosstour and when the sales guy kept saying four wheel drive I asked if he meant awd. The sales person claimed it was four wheel drive not all wheel drive but I doubt he knows the difference. There is almost no discernable difference in modern cars with the all wheel/four wheel drive systems. I suppose some do work better than others but I have not driven any that were much better than others. If we were discussing real fwd vs awd I would say I prefer fwd as in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Detroit</st1:place></st1:City> lockers front and rear only when I am off road. I used to run a logging company and had true four wheel drive. If I was using my vehicle to get around on snowy roads all the time I would choose modern awd with traction control. 50 years of driving in snow and mud has shown me that the tires I buy are way more important than how many wheels I have trying to turn. The worst fwd I have ever seen was the 1980s jeep products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 or this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 We had a neighbor that had a 70's Jeep AWD Wagoneer. It was always locked in and sucked gas like mad. Dandy Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72caddy Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Glad I live in the South where, when it snows, we just shut down everything and just don't try. As soon as you step on it, it turns to ice...so no use even trying to drive.Btw, I do own a AWD Acura RL. It requires transmission and rear diff changes every 30k miles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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