Dandy Dave Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 The Packard Plant, another deadline missed. Seems it may go for as little as $21,000 plus two years back taxes. Sad state of affairs for the birth place of one of our finest autos of yesteryear. http://www.freep.com/article/20130913/BUSINESS06/309130134/Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Excellent video Dave. Watch it to the end guys...Sad!Decaying America? (I just deleted this, but hey! It's true, time to stop the pc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Yes watch it all. Some amazing photo overlays then vs. now. Seeing any old structure like this makes me think for days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Magoo Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 The Free Press web feature is amazing, easily the best thing ever done on the Packard plant. That said, the complex should be bulldozed yesterday. It's a menace to the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Some years back somebody had big plans for that place, they were going to spend millions on it. But the city decided to swindle him out of it and do some project of their own. Which never went anyplace. Now it is worth nothing. Way to go Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Just curious,,,,Are the Pierce-Arrow buildings still standing???Cheers,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPrice Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Yes, it's really sad to see what was once a great auto builder end up as a derelict bunch of buildings. As a Packard historian said in the video, "it might be better to just tear the whole thing down."Rog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den41Buick Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 A microcosm of what America has become..... on so many levels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 The whole Packard factory available for the cost of a Volkswagen. Who would have believed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WEB 38 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 You would need a SWAT Team to help restore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dtalbott13 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I would love to buy that whole complex if I had the money! I am so in love with Packards and yet it really tears me apart as well as others I am sure to see this once great companies old plant sit in ruins........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 A microcosm of what America has become..... on so many levelsindeed, that's why things like this really make a person ponder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bkazmer Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 the "Packard" doorway and grille emblem from the bridge were saved. A portion of the proving ground (located just north of Detroit) was saved, is used and is in further restoration. Go there to experience the history instead of the carcass of the plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Magoo Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yes, it's really sad to see what was once a great auto builder end up as a derelict bunch of buildings. As a Packard historian said in the video, "it might be better to just tear the whole thing down."RogNo maybe about it. The plant needs to be gone yesterday. It's an incredible blight on the city. Frankly, I don't understand the nostalgia. The last Packard was built there nearly 60 years ago and it was hopelessly obsolete then. Well past time to get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Frankly, I don't understand the nostalgia. The last Packard was built there nearly 60 years ago and it was hopelessly obsolete then. Well past time to get over it.Nostalgia is a personal feeling, and I am very nostalic over certain automotive history. These Packard factory pictures make me sad, but I still love to look at them, a time when the American Automobile Industry was king!Many would consider the Packard a car ahead of its time too. There will be many Packards at the RM Auctions in Hershey this week. Let's see how popular they will be Thursday night. I will be attending! Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 The last Packard was built there nearly 60 years ago and it was hopelessly obsolete then.Wayne, I think Magoo was talking about the plant's obsolescence, not the last Packard cars that were built there.TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Tom, you're probably right. Sorry. I just see all of those pictures of the marble floors and the marble fixtures and can not help but reminisce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Magoo Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I love Packards and I am as passionate and engaged in the pursuit of automotive history as anyone. What I don't understand is all the prolonged hand-wringing about the plant. It's a standing ruin, a blight. All my sympathy is with the people in the neighborhood who have to put up with the menace. It should have been demolished a long time ago. Yes, I understand the plant is a piece of history, but there is history on every block throughout that entire part of Detroit. Go one block up and over from Packard and here is the Amplex division of Chrysler, where Oilite bearings originated: Go a few blocks north up Mt Elliott at the Canada Northern yard and here is the old Gear Grinding Machine Co, where Alfred Rzeppa developed the constant-velocity joint -- and many other important inventions, too. Auto history is everywhere in this part of Detroit, but it's time to move on. Life is for the living. All these old ruins need to go away so Detroit can rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LINC400 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 It has been several years since I have been there. But at that time, there was no need to feel sorry for the neighbors that had to look at the plant. The neighborhoods around the plant are in just as bad of shape (including houses people are living in), as the plant. In fact, there was an old couch sitting in the middle of the street that we had to drive around just to get to it. One of the reasons it was never converted to some other use is because no one would want to go to that area even if it was converted into nice lofts or a mall. It probably wouldn't even be finished before it started getting vandalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Magoo, I'm sorry to get into this discussion, and I can understand your feelings. Can I remind everyone though that I am from Virginia. We still have buildings for the 1600's, not in the best of shape, but we are doing our best to preserve them to educate future generations. I know very little about Detroit, other than what I hear and read. I think they have a long road before recovery. That said, if an AACA region ever supported a tour in Detroit, I'd be the first to sign up. An Ohio region has had local tours to old empty automotive buildings in a large city that I'd love to see. Wait, there is talk that a National Tour is in the works in that city. I will be there! Sorry to pull this discussion in the wrong direction.Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Wayne, no need to apologize, I did a double-take on the sentence, too.Watching the video where water is pouring through the roof and down the columns reminds me of those "100 Years After Humans" shows and the structural decay water causes as it annually freezes and thaws, plus the havoc it wreaks on wooden beams and other structural elements. For an aerial overview of what the plant looks like, go to Google Maps and type in, "1580 East Grand Boulevard, Detroit, MI," then zoom in on the black hole on either side of E. Grand that is the plant. As you zoom closer, the image shifts from overhead to an angled view that speaks volumes. TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) For an aerial overview of what the plant looks like, go to Google Maps and type in, "1580 East Grand Boulevard, Detroit, MI," then zoom in on the black hole on either side of E. Grand that is the plant. As you zoom closer, the image shifts from overhead to an angled view that speaks volumes. TGWow, the only black scenery in an otherwise green (albeit rundown) area overall. I imagine everyone that lived there walked to work there. Is the Cadillac plant across the freeway still running currently? Looks like it is with all the cars in the parking lots. I see one road is "Cadillac Assembly Plant." Edited October 7, 2013 by 39BuickEight (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I imagine everyone that lived there walked to work there. Is the Cadillac plant across the freeway still running currently? Looks like it is with all the cars in the parking lots.Billy, yes, that's the Hamtramck Assembly Plant built in 1985 and still cranking out Cadillac DTS sedans. My great-uncle worked at the Packard Plant until Dec., 1946, and lived about 10 miles away, kind of far to walk. I started a thread about some papers and pics of his '49 Packard Club Sedan in this 2007 thread. I bet the large number of workers took buses or car-pooled to work.TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 (edited) I found it interesting that Wikipedia states that the Packard Plant was the first structure in Detroit to use reinforced concrete, and as late as this year has been determined to be structurally sound (yet some blgs are literally crumbling). I would think at the least the walkways over the roads would be taken down.I hate to imagine it all gone with just a road marker talking about the "Motor City Industrial Park," though I do understand it's not feasible to save it.If it were up to me everything ever made would be preserved forever. I'm a nostalgic person to say the least. My elementary school is gone, my junior high school is gone, and my high school is now a middle school (at least the building is still there.)My next car needs to be a Packard now Edited October 7, 2013 by 39BuickEight (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Posted by LINC400It has been several years since I have been there. But at that time, there was no need to feel sorry for the neighbors that had to look at the plant. The neighborhoods around the plant are in just as bad of shape (including houses people are living in), as the plant. In fact, there was an old couch sitting in the middle of the street that we had to drive around just to get to it. No need to feel sorry for the neighbors? Really? They probably had little to do with Detroit Proper's manufacturing base decline, the workforce (jobs) decline of 3 million to 700,000, and the city's attendant loss of tax revenue. Posted by LINC400One of the reasons it was never converted to some other use is because no one would want to go to that area even if it was converted into nice lofts or a mall. It probably wouldn't even be finished before it started getting vandalized.GM opened the Hamtramck Assembly Plant in 1985 just across the highway from "that area" and it's still cranking out Cadillac DTS sedans, so it kind of weakens your premise.TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Kerns Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Here is a link to some comparison photos of the plant then & now. Move your mouse across the photo to blend from one to the other. I found them very interesting.http://www.freep.com/interactive/article/20121202/NEWS01/120823062/The-Packard-Plant-Then-now-interactive-comparison-photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 On another website, it has a listing (of sorts) of properties which Chrysler has for sale. Probably the "last gen" Chrysler rather than the "current gen" Chrysler, though. The one which was mentioned prominently was an original unit of American Motors, I believe, which Chrysler later used for some specific uses in the 1980s. There IS also mention that thoughts of refurbishing and updating it were overridden by the fact of "the neighborhood" it's in and how willing people would be to work in that particular area. Hence, it's for sale as "excess property". So, that might be more of an issue than some might choose to consider, either workers or corporate employees.I saw the Packard complex photos a while back. Certainly, some sections do need to be removed. It WOULD be nice if it could be re-purposed for the benefit of the neighborhood. Community center, possibly, or something else. The OTHER thing is that those buildings were not really built to be energy efficient and would cost massive amounts of money just to keep comfortable during several months of the year. Not to say that the more-sound buildings couldn't be re-interiored with completely modern items and made into a nice office complex . . . or possibly even a regional health facility. ALL it would take is a will to do it, an agreeable municipal government, and $$$$$.Unfortunately, I suspect that NONE of those things are in abundance in MI right now, even in Detroit. I also suspect it would be decades before there would be enough development to justify ANY investment in such plant facilities. So, for now, justifying paying for the demolition of these facilities is a stretch, I suspect, with rennovation being much more expensive to do.The inconvenient reality is that if these buildings were going to have been preserved, it should have been done long ago. Just that in that earlier time frame, the Detroit area was not in the best economic shape either, nor were the car companies. Then consider that almost everybody wants to work in "a new building" and that some consider a building's life to be 30-40 years, before its usefullness has been "used up". In those orientations, "they need to go". On the other hand, IF they were all gone, it would further make Detroit look more like a lunar landscape in winter . . . which is not that good either. Still, public health and safety would be overriding considerations, most probably . . . NOT future property values as the land sits vacant awaiting those ships of money to arrive in MI.In the mean time, cherish the past for what it was and be glad that we do know how great things might have been . . . as we might seek to achieve similar former greatness in the future. I'm guardedly optimistic that Detroit can ever regain its former glory, but I would certainly cheer when it might happen.Thanks for all of the links and also thanks to the many journalists who made these historical programs possible!Regards,NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I have to agree with some who believe that Detroit needs to reinvent itself in a very radical way. Old Detroit is dead and will, likely, never return to any semblance of the industrial giant that it once was. All of the blighted areas of the city should be leveled and allowed to return to nature. I am not naive enough to believe that it could be easily done. It would cost, I'm sure, billions to raze half of a city. Just the logistics of disposing of the rubble would be staggering. The end result would be a medium sized city that would be far more manageable. There is little tax revenue coming from these areas anyway, but it still costs the city money to maintain them. As far as the gutter rats that infest these areas and soak up millions and millions in "entitlements" while robbing each other, selling drugs and engaging in other sorts of tomfoolery, make them work with the demolition contractors as laborers for minimum wage. If they refuse, yank their "benefits" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Posted by 58MustangThere is little tax revenue coming from these areas anyway, but it still costs the city money to maintain them. As far as the gutter rats that infest these areas and soak up millions and millions in "entitlements" while robbing each other, selling drugs and engaging in other sorts of tomfoolery, make them work with the demolition contractors as laborers for minimum wage. If they refuse, yank their "benefits"Now there's a pleasant thought, thanks for sharing it with us. And then, once all those gutter rats finish the job, there should be enough tax monies left over to pay for razor wire to fence them in, right?TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Justin,Thanks for posting the Free Press link to those "Then & Now" photos...just amazing. It's also fun to spend some time searching, "The Making of Modern Michigan, Digital Collections," for Packard and other photos. Type in a year and all manner of images come up, with some really fine homes, factory shots, and other background locations taken from Packard's own company photos (plus a few other sources).TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I too am very nostalgic. I was to the point of needing an intervention when I got out of college. My mother was tired of me using her yard as storage for the nostalgia. You see, I kept the cars of my past. I bought my mom's car from my childhood (from her) and my grandmother's and when my Dad passed, I kept his too. I would relish in the idea that I rode in that car to school when Dad was alive, or went to the zoo on weekends in that one when grandma was still younger and spry. After a long sit down with mom, she had to make me realize, the cars were things and things are replaceable. She told me to find smaller tokens that triggered the same memories. With that we began selling the albatrosses that I was working so feverishly on finding affordable storage for. Somethings are just too big to be practical "tokens". Now as a grown up, I've filled every empty shelf with "memory tokens" (not hoarding as the items never exceed the shelves) but I've now caught myself eyeing the large tokens again....family autos, the old house I grew up in, and most recently my elementary school came up for sale.....perfect condos right? HA HA HA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Among the most disturbing memories of my former career as an environmental inspector were my final inspections of the US Steel Homestead and Duquesne Works near Pittsburgh. Both were many times the size of the Packard plant, employing about 15,000 people each at their peak. They had been abandoned about 3 years prior to my arrival in the Pittsburgh PA-DER office, and many personal effects and production remnants were still around. Both places reeked of American industrial history. At the Homestead Works I was touring I walked the railroad tracks with US Steel's real estate rep. where the Homestead Massacre of 1893 occurred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike ) shortly before the tracks (still the originals where many of the men fell) were torn up. The blood spilled on those tracks (years later) changed America. Today that spot is occupied by a TGI Fridays, a Chicago Uno Grill, and an Eat n' Park. The Homestead Works is a commercial shopping district and a waterpark today, the Duquesne Works is a light industrial park. As far as I know there isn't a single standing structure of either place left. Life has moved on. Sentimentality regarding the past, even the historically important bits, cannot take precedence over the continuity of life. If it can't be practically preserved or re-purposed, it has to go. That doesn't mean it's forgotten. BTW, if you want to really see the collapse of an automotive industry, look up the fates of the various British Leyland factories worldwide (in 1970 the world's 4th largest car company). Virtually none remain in any sense. The last one still operating as a remnant of the original company was abandoned in place in 2006. This is what was left behind, photographed in March of 2007: http://www.teoti.com/photography/19553-abandoned-car-factory-rover-mg.html . Some of those pictures remind me vividly of what I saw in Homestead and Duquesne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) Thanks for that post Dave. My in-laws are all in Pittsburgh and many are retired steel workers.Justin, that's a great link. I had no idea they transported cars across the bridge as part of the assembly line. Edited October 9, 2013 by 39BuickEight (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Dillon Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> It is really sad what has happened to Detroit and I have to watch what I say as It may be taken in the wrong context. The city needs to change in so many ways. I was born and raised there and went to law school in Downtown Detroit in the seventies. The Vernor bar was right around the corner and remembered when a prostitute was murdered there; it was over territory but was not an earth shattering event. The prostitutes used to ask me if they could sit on the hood of my car some nights to stay warm. If you were smart, you walked with your right hand in your pocket. Danger was not all that uncommon. I have seen the good and bad and still love what the city was. Back in 84 through 86 I ran a paint project for GM in the old Gemmer gear building (owned by the Shoenith (Roostertail) family in 84 then Zappie fence company in 86). These Anti -graffiti projects for City of New York busses would last for several months and we acted like gypsies setting up for a few months and then letting it go abandoned till the next year. That plant is still standing and is right across the freeway from the Packard plant. It was a tough neighborhood then. In 84 the steel switching facility next door had some robbers with automatic weapons rob the employees. They probably got $50 but enough to get their fix I suppose. The next day I applied for my permits and carried two guns from that day forward (Smith and Wesson Model 66 in view and 380 backup on the ankle). We were right across the street from what was the new Cadillac plant. During the day it was relatively safe but that was the Young Boys Incorporated territory (YBI-very tough street gang that was big on drugs and violence-most are dead except for the leader who is still in prison) and at night it was a dangerous place. I had to lock the gates late every night and you had to keep your head on a swivel. There were some homeless people that lived inside the plant-a different world. At that time I used to visit the old Packard plant somewhat regularly and it was sad in some areas but other areas were so-so. They had some rooms that renters used for businesses and there were storage areas for collector cars. These rooms were in pretty good shape. We stored a 1923 Packard touring there and it was stolen so maybe not as secure as one thinks. It was never recovered. This was a Packard my grandfather took through Canada on a tour in early winter through to New York (Lake Placid maybe). It snowed on the way and this was in the seventies when he and my grandmother were probably close to 80 years old. Today that place is an absolute mess and is extremely dangerous. Tearing it down is probably the only option. Seeing the present status of Detroit maybe they can take years to tear it down at taxpayer expense (oh that’s right they have no money) and plant corn. As I said it is sad but reality. As an aside and somewhat funny story at least from my perspective, I hired this man to do some work at my house and he had a helper from Detroit, an African American. Now I live maybe 60 miles from Detroit in the country and my wife has horses. My wife had the farrier coming that day so the horses were in the barn. This young guy said to me” you have horses?-I think I saw a horse one time” . So I asked him if he wanted to see them and took him in the barn. He was so appreciative and appeared as if he was seeing creatures from outer space. Some have said they may need some open lands there and have livestock for grazing. Maybe some of the residents would like it. -Jim <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:DoNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w:DontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc 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LINC400 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 (edited) No need to feel sorry for the neighbors? Really? They probably had little to do with Detroit Proper's manufacturing base decline, the workforce (jobs) decline of 3 million to 700,000, and the city's attendant loss of tax revenue. GM opened the Hamtramck Assembly Plant in 1985 just across the highway from "that area" and it's still cranking out Cadillac DTS sedans, so it kind of weakens your premise.TGThat is correct. There is no need to feel sorry for the neighbors. They may not be responsible for Detroit's economy. But being poor is no excuse for vandalism and throwing garbage in the streets, including, as I already said, a couch we had to drive around. If the plant were leveled today and a public park replaced it, it would not improve the area much. The rest of the neighborhood is in almost as bad of shape, and the park would not be a safe place to be. The plant had sections rented out over the years, but it just became more unsafe for tenants to stay there. So who would want to buy a loft or shop there if it were turned into lofts or a mall? You probably wouldn't even make it back to your car with your purchases before you got mugged. If the plant was in a better area, it could have been converted to another use decades ago, or bulldozed and replaced by something else. It is because of where it is located that no one wants the expense of converting it, or bulldozing and building something else, only to be vandalized yet again and having no one want to go to what replaced it. The Packard plant is the victim. It is not the cause of the problem as everyone makes it out to be.I have no idea how to fix Detroit's problems. But getting rid of the Packard plant is not going to make everything all better in that area. It's not like property values will skyrocket there once it is gone. Edited October 10, 2013 by LINC400 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Magoo Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I have to agree with some who believe that Detroit needs to reinvent itself in a very radical way. Old Detroit is dead and will, likely, never return to any semblance of the industrial giant that it once was.It's not that the old Detroit is gone. That America is gone and it is never coming back. Less than a mile NW of the Packard plant was Dodge Main (1910-1980). This plant employed over 20,000 people, over 40,000 during the war. Where Dodge Main once stood is now one little part (the NE corner, essentially) of the giant GM Hamtramck plant. The new plant is not only larger but greener, cleaner, and safer by far than Dodge Main ever was, and also much more efficient and productive. But due to automation and advances in manufacturing technology, there aren't 2000 workers in the entire complex at full production. In 1951, the population of Detroit peaked at 1.8 million and it has been falling ever since. Today it's reportedly a little over 700,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 It's not that the old Detroit is gone. That America is gone and it is never coming back. Sadly, agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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