Tire advice: 700x20 whitewalls needed!

[Matt Harwood]

After 14 months and two sets of Firestone 700-20 wide whitewalls on my 1929 Cadillac, all of which have turned brown within a few weeks of installation (the tires shown below are about two months old and you can see the gray/tan haze forming around the perimeter), I've given up on these tires. Now I'm looking for alternatives. I love the way the Firestones look, but apparently they can't (or won't) make them properly and the oils from the black rubber leech into the white rubber, ruining the tires. I have dealt with [unnamed vintage tire company] located in our favorite Pennsylvania small town, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of [bigger unnamed vintage tire company] (is that suitably vague, mods?), and they've really dropped the ball on this whole thing resulting in a comedy of errors that's just too ridiculous to believe that they're a professional organization. Sadly, this is what virtual monopolies get you: shoddy workmanship at outrageous prices.

I really like the looks of wide whites on my Cadillac, and I loved the way these particular tires looked, but now that my wheels have been chewed up by three separate mount/dismount procedures, I just want a set of tires I can use and enjoy and not have to replace every 3-4 months.

I need some 700x20 wide whites. Does anyone know of anything other than these Firestones or the goofy-looking Lesters, preferably made, sold, and serviced by someone who is not affiliated with [unnamed vintage tire company] or [larger unnamed vintage tire company]? I'm done with them forever having been burned a few too many times.

Failing that, I guess I'll go with blackwalls and be less than pleased with the car.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Matt Harwood
Typo (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Matt,

Those are the same type of tire I put on my 32 Caddy, after waiting 6 months to get them. I sold the car soon after putting them on but if I would had this problem I would have been equally pissed. I would probably go with blackwalls but I can't believe there aren't decent whitewalls available from somewhere. Good luck.

[Taylormade]

Boy, this makes me glad I'm going with blackwalls on my restoration. It was that way it was when I first bought the car 45 years ago and now that I found her again, she's getting the original treatment. I have to say, though, that those wide whites do look good on the big classics.

[Matt Harwood]

Whitewalls sure look good on the car, no?

Does anyone know if the 700x20 BFGoodrich Silvertown wide whitewalls are made by Coker? Not as wide in the whitewalls (3.25 inches versus 4.5), but that might be OK.

[Marty Roth]

Matt, I agree that whitewalls do look better on that car.

They certainly seem to be in keeping with the spirit of my cars.

Good luck with your quest.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[R W Burgess]

Don't know how they do on "real cars", but I bought a set of Goodrichs, sent them to the "place" in South Carolina and had the white walls vulcanized on. My GMC pick up (you may have seen it) now has about 60,000 miles on those tires, high speeds (Ticket in Tennessee) and towing my enclosed trailer at times, with little yellowing. I will say that the mating seams have started to separate, but a little Westley's and the whites still look good. At this mileage, I'm not complaining about the service. I have another new set ready to take down to those guys. I'm just saying!

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks, Wayne. I actually already contacted Diamondback to see if they could vulcanize their whitewalls onto the blackwall Firestone carcass, but they can't do tires over 32 inches in diameter. Diamondback has a great reputation and I would have used them happily.

I have also learned that a company called Specialty Tire in PA makes pretty much all bias-ply old car tires and that Coker owns all the molds. Sadly, that means just about any whitewall I buy will be made by these guys, and there's no way to be sure that the problems I've had won't follow me to a different brand. Some have suggested I may have gotten a "bad batch" but the second set of Firestones had a manufacture date more than a year after the first ones, so that's not likely.

I'm really heartbroken about this. In addition to the money I've spent on shipping and mounting/balancing (about $1500 that I'll never get back), I still have to buy new tires (about $400 each) pretty soon because these will be brown in a few weeks. Hell, these latest Firestones probably only have 400 miles on them! The tubes from [unnamed vintage tire company] leak slowly, about 10 PSI/week, but I will try to re-use them since they're brand new, so that'll save me a few dollars, but I'm still in for a few hundred bucks during a fourth changeover. Plus the edges of my disc wheels have been beaten and chipped to an alarming degree, so I'm now considering having them stripped and repainted, although I hate to lose the hand-painted pinstripes that match the bodywork so nicely.

It's not our fault their quality control sucks, but it's always the guy at the end who gets the shaft with no real recourse. It's enough to make me want to stop driving the car.

[TexRiv_63]

I have also learned that a company called Specialty Tire in PA makes pretty much all bias-ply old car tires and that Coker owns all the molds. Sadly, that means just about any whitewall I buy will be made by these guys, and there's no way to be sure that the problems I've had won't follow me to a different brand. Some have suggested I may have gotten a "bad batch" but the second set of Firestones had a manufacture date more than a year after the first ones, so that's not likely.

I remember being told that one company made all the tires when I was waiting to get mine. Doesn't the "unnamed vintage tire company" warranty its defective products? At the prices they charge they should. As a group this is an area where we seem to get victimized quite often.

[jrbartlett]

I am having the same problem with the same make, 700x19. They turn yellow within 3 weeks. The best way to get them white again is wiping them off with Simple Green repeatedly. It takes about 10 minutes per tire. After repeated wipings, the stain finally dissolves and the yellow matter winds up on the rag. I've tried lacquer thinner, bleach, SOS pads and several whiteners, but the Simple Green seems to work best.

[Matt Harwood]

I remember being told that one company made all the tires when I was waiting to get mine. Doesn't the "unnamed vintage tire company" warranty its defective products? At the prices they charge they should. As a group this is an area where we seem to get victimized quite often.

Actually, yes, they did warrant the first set, although the exact quote from them was "You're lucky we're paying for the shipping on these new ones." After what was a shockingly bad series of missteps on their part, I finally got this second set installed on the car back in May. It's that second set that's now turning colors. At that point I called them and told them to send my money back for everything: tires, tubes, flaps. They wanted the tires back before they'll refund the money, but I told them that I'm going to finish the season on them, brown or not, then find something else to install, and at that point, maybe I'll return the tires. They're in the process of refunding my money at this moment. So yes, they did warrant the tires, but they did an absolutely AWFUL job at every step. The short version involves lost shipments, sending the wrong tires, defective tubes, replacement tubes sent to the wrong address, forgetting to send a FedEx call tag to pick up the aforementioned tubes sent to the wrong address, and billing my credit card (debit card, actually, since I don't buy anything I can't afford) not once, but twice for a set of $2300.00 replacement tires that THEY were supposed to pay for, subsequently causing my check to the IRS to bounce. So not only is the product junk, but their competence is quite questionable--I can understand and forgive one or even two mistakes--I'm a pretty easy-going guy--but everything they did was done incredibly badly, and I'm just one guy with modest expectations. So for my Cadillac, I want different tires made by a different manufacturer (not possible, sadly), and sold by a different outfit. I'm through with these guys, they did everything possible to permanently lose my business and succeeded brilliantly. And remember, I don't just buy tires for my own cars--last year, my company spent more than $30,000 on tires for collector cars of all shapes and sizes.

I am having the same problem with the same make, 700x19. They turn yellow within 3 weeks. The best way to get them white again is wiping them off with Simple Green repeatedly. It takes about 10 minutes per tire. After repeated wipings, the stain finally dissolves and the yellow matter winds up on the rag. I've tried lacquer thinner, bleach, SOS pads and several whiteners, but the Simple Green seems to work best.

Sadly, I've tried that. The stain is coming from behind the whitewall, not something on it. I scrubbed it with every cleaner I could think of using brushes, steel wool, sandpaper, and green Scotchbrite pads. It's a defect in the tire, not mere dirt. In fact, on the first set, scrubbing only seemed to accelerate the discoloration process. I'm not even going to bother with these, I'm just going to drive on them for the rest of the year, then buy something else and throw these in the dumpster. If [unnamed vintage tire company] wants them, they can come get them at that point.

Yeah, I'm bitter. Sorry.

[TexRiv_63]

Actually, yes, they did warrant the first set, although the exact quote from them was "You're lucky we're paying for the shipping on these new ones." After what was a shockingly bad series of missteps on their part, I finally got this second set installed on the car back in May. It's that second set that's now turning colors. At that point I called them and told them to send my money back for everything: tires, tubes, flaps. They wanted the tires back before they'll refund the money, but I told them that I'm going to finish the season on them, brown or not, then find something else to install, and at that point, maybe I'll return the tires. They're in the process of refunding my money at this moment. So yes, they did warrant the tires, but they did an absolutely AWFUL job at every step. The short version involves lost shipments, sending the wrong tires, defective tubes, replacement tubes sent to the wrong address, forgetting to send a FedEx call tag to pick up the aforementioned tubes sent to the wrong address, and billing my credit card (debit card, actually, since I don't buy anything I can't afford) not once, but twice for a set of $2300.00 replacement tires that THEY were supposed to pay for, subsequently causing my check to the IRS to bounce. So not only is the product junk, but their competence is quite questionable--I can understand and forgive one or even two mistakes--I'm a pretty easy-going guy--but everything they did was done incredibly badly, and I'm just one guy with modest expectations. So for my Cadillac, I want different tires made by a different manufacturer (not possible, sadly), and sold by a different outfit. I'm through with these guys, they did everything possible to permanently lose my business and succeeded brilliantly. And remember, I don't just buy tires for my own cars--last year, my company spent more than $30,000 on tires for collector cars of all shapes and sizes.

Yeah, I'm bitter. Sorry.

You have a right to be bitter, after reading this I would be homicidal! It's amazing and shameful that any company that depends on a fairly small group of hobbyists for most of its business can totally ignore reasonable customer service practices and apparently not even care if they lose significant repeat business! I just sent you a PM to identify this company so that I will never do business with them and I suggest anyone else contemplating a tire purchase do the same - vote with your feet!

[Restorer32]

Used to be that the folks you dealt with at "unnamed tire company" actually knew something about tires. Now you speak with an "order taker" who was likely flipping burgers last week. We too have been frustrated with the poor quailty and lousy service lately. I spent a good 15 minutes on the phone trying to convince an "order taker" that they actually did have tubes with two different diameter valve stems and of course even after that they shipped us the wrong tubes.

[Paul Dobbin]

Matt said " The stain is coming from behind the whitewall, not something on it." I agree.

Back in 1998 I bought my first Diamondback Classic tires for my Buick and the brown bleed came through the whitewall.

I called them and they made it right and discovered a way to defeat the bleed. Since they they stay white and I just use the simple green to clean them. Still a happy customer of Diamondback.

Maybe the "big unnamed tire company" could learn something from the little guy. I don't get a name brand

logo on my tires, but they stay white.

[jrbartlett]

I think that in my case it's the surface of the whitewall that is oxidizing or discoloring. It doesn't wipe off easily -- it takes a while for the Simple Green to work.

Edited August 8, 2013 by jrbartlett (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

James, I have some Simple Green and when I pull the car out to wash it for an event this weekend, I think I'll let it soak as you've advised. I'd be delighted to find this could cure the problem. I'm not optimistic, but even a temporary respite and a routine I have to do each time I wash it would be preferable to new tires and the mounting nightmare again. Thanks for the tip!

[oldford]

At the risk of raising the ire of the previous posters, I have to step in with a comment. I have dealt with that 'unnamed tire company' exclusively for over 30 years. I deal with one person almost exclusively and have had only one problem in that 30 years. I had some all white clincher tires go yellow within six months and called to discuss the problem. Rather than be contentious, I explained the problem and it was resolved while I was on the phone. Admittedly, it was near Hershey time and I did not have to deal with shipping, but rather just exchanged the tires on the spot in their tent. Very courteous and very professional. I wouldn't buy from anyone else. I'm not saying that you did not have an issue, but there are 2 sides to every story, but your's seems an extreme one...

Frank

[Matt Harwood]

Frank, as I said, they DID exchange the tires, no questions asked, and they DID refund my money when I asked for it. I don't have any problems with their attitude towards customer service, they were always friendly and sincerely tried to help whenever I called. Before this second set of tires turned brown, I was delighted and a very satisfied customer, despite everything that had happened. The one thing I've learned in the service business is that the guy who has things go wrong, but gets them fixed quickly and to his satisfaction, is often a MORE loyal customer than the guy where everything goes perfectly. Mine is an ideal case study in that effect.

Yes, of course there are two stories to tell here. Please call Gary or John the manager at [unnamed vintage tire company] and get their side of the story. I suspect they'll admit that there were mistakes on many levels and that they did all they reasonably could, but the manufacturer of the tires let them down in the quality department. In fact, I very much appreciate the way Gary in particular handled my case and always answered my requests with a "can do" attitude. I also think they'll tell you that I was consistently polite and understanding throughout, including when my IRS check bounced, and that my demands were reasonable--I only wanted what I paid for, not a free handout. I actually did a lot of legwork and spent two full days of my time driving several hundred miles to get the second set mounted and balanced at a more reasonable cost, since [unnamed vintage tire company] was going to try to get the manufacturer to pay for it and probably wouldn't accept the $200/wheel I paid the first time around. I didn't get upset until this second set of tires turned brown and they said I'd have to return them to get my money back. Let me make this clear: I was almost $4000 into this tire experiment, and still had brown tires on my car and chips on my rims. Fair return on an investment in your opinion?

Please, put yourself in my shoes: what if you had taken your tires to them at Hershey, exchanged them on the spot, and a few days later noticed almost $2500 missing from your bank account? What if those new tires turned yellow within WEEKS. And what if you'd already spent nearly $1500 in shipping and mounting/balancing to put two sets of defective tires on your car? They didn't technically do anything "wrong," and in fact did a lot of things right to fix the situation, but you surely wouldn't be pleased with the end result, right?

Or to put it a different way, would you keep eating at a restaurant where you'd always had good meals and great service, but get salmonella poisoning on two separate occasions? Wouldn't you find someplace else to eat or at least try a different meal?

I'm not the bad guy here, and neither is [unnamed vintage tire company]. The product is inferior and they aren't able to adequately solve the problems it causes.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Matt , I feel your PAIN. I have been going through a carbon copy of your scenario, except for I have FOUR sets of FIVE WWW tires now involved. That's TWENTY whitewall tires out of TWENTY that are showing up brown. UGLY BROWN. Disgusting BROWN .

I have struggled with this issue for going on nearly years now and chose to remain silent . In my experience, if one makes any waves for vendors who are in bed with AACA, they send out their mafioso post-haste. Once again, we are treading on sacred ground.

See my previous posts WARNING: DEFECTIVE INNER TUBES for the entire story here:

http://forums.aaca.org/f143/warning-defective-inner-tubes-286287.html

However, since you, Matt, brought it up, I can't sit on the sidelines any longer. Besides, who in this business is more credible than you? I seriously can't believe that they treated a heavy like you, this way.

(FYI, I'm not insulting Matt-- a "heavy" in sales is a VERY, VERY good customer).

In fairness, I received nothing but very friendly and accommodating service from both UTC's and they were happy to "warranty" the problem. Of course they should be happy-they are holding the money and we are stuck with the garbage.

They were also very friendly as they:

1) repeatedly botched the orders

2) sent out wrong items or quantities

3) replacement tires were now "discontinued"

4) they wanted me to either pay for the difference for the substituted item OR accept an inferior product that did not match.

Talk about bumbling and incompetence. Any other company that was a NON-MONOPOLY would be shuttered by now. After hearing Matt's saga, I am beginning to believe this is by design. Could a reputable company screw up that many times in almost the EXACT same pattern TWICE? What am I thinking? Naw, it has to be a coincidence.

So here's a small snippet of the dozens of emails I sent to "fix" the problem:

THE PROBLEM: The tires have turned from white-walls to brown-walls or yellow-walls.Despite hours of hard intensive cleaning, within a week these white walls become an ugly brown color. Over the past year, extra effort was required to keep the tires looking clean. If I cleaned them up on Sunday, by the following Saturday, they need cleaning again. One tire refuses to clean up at all.In this hobby, it s all in the details. These tires are an unsightly headache and I refuse to waste another minute cleaning them. One more thing: the whitewall/blackwall interface is thin and peeling in places as well.

A DISTURBING PATTERN: Incidentally, this is the second batch (NOW FOURTH BATCH)of tires with the identical symptoms. The first batch was a set of 6 Lester WWW tires made by (large east coast UTC) and distributed through (The west coast UTC). (The west coast UTC) handled the warranty claim on these. Additionally, we went through hell and high water with the defectiveinner tubes that went along with this order. These tubes would shred and split without warning!

Clearly, the last 2-3 years demonstrates an extremely disturbing pattern of poor quality control and repeatedly marketing the same defects again and again. With the first batch of brown tires, (The west coast UTC) replaced the tires and shredding inner tubes. Fortunately no one got hurt. (The west coast UTC) however, made no allowance for the time, inconvenience, and expense involved with demounting, remounting, balancing, packaging, and re-shipping these defective products.

It was so expensive to pay someone to screw up my wire wheels after repeated mounts and dismounts, that I purchased my own tire machine and a computerized spin balancer . Now I need a trained pit crew.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Here's some pics showing the poor workmanship and UGLY BROWN "whitewalls". By the way, in my last post, I implied that the problem was "fixed". In fact, it is pretty far from fixed. The large UTC continues to ship this crap and we continue paying for all the peripheral headaches. I am desperately seeking a real fix or a company that cares about quality and not just the bottom line. In the meantime, I am stuck sending back yet another TEN Tires.

[Tom M]

Hi Matt,

Sure hope I don't run into this matter with my tires again. Already had to replace them once.

See my thread here http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11476&forum=4&post_id=119165#forumpost119165

I too had the rim all nicely painted and now from the dismounting of the tire and remounting of the new tires my rims got a little beat up also.

Like you Matt I like the looks of the White's and the tread pattern of the Firestone's. If they are to yellow again I am not sure what I will do?

[Matt Harwood]

Well, if it's any consolation, I was at Pebble Beach last month and took a lot of photos (duh). Looking through my files, every single car on the show field, ranging from a Duesenberg J dual cowl phaeton to a V16 Cadillac coupe to a Marmon Sixteen convertible coupe, with Firestone wide whites has the exact same problem. It obviously wasn't a "bad batch," it's completely endemic to the brand. I've still got mine on the car as there's one more tour this year, but over the winter I'm going to have to figure out a solution. I don't know what that will be yet.

Thanks for the support, I don't know if it'll get us anywhere with the big tire company that supplies most of the old car tires, but if the guys a Pebble are having the same problem, then throwing money at it obviously isn't the solution--they've already done it.

I wonder if those owners would be interested in what's going on here. $urely their voice$ will be more convincing than our$...

[Friartuck]

This sounds like a bad batch problem where replacing many hundreds would be way too expensive vs. one customers problem set.

1. Consider a 6.50 X 20 instead of 7.00 X 20.

2. Is it possible to paint using PPG Single Stage Urethane (Concept line) with flex additive that's used for modern rubber bumpers?