The Ressurection of Daphne - a 1932 DL

[Taylormade]

Hmmmm, I didn't think about that.  I don't have the brazing skills to do it, and I assume you would have to find an expert so the collar wouldn't be damaged by the heat.  Just another problem to solve.

 

Thanks, Phil.  I'm heading to the bearing store tomorrow to see what I can find.  They have managed to find just about everything I've needed, so far.

[Spinneyhill]

The Hollander 18th Ed. 1952 gives some cross references. Maybe they will be useful.

ND CT30 = MRC 210CTC; CJB (Ahlberg) A762; Federal 210CTC; B.C.A. CRY30, 4022-AH, CTS, CWY, CY60

 

NICE 5068-1 interchanges with:

AETNA A641, A641-1; BCA 1811; B.J.I. N847.

 

In this document, http://www.timken.com/EN-US/products/Documents/Timken_Bearing_Cross_Reference_Guide.pdf

the Federal 210CTC = Timken 1872.

 

According to Timken's Bearing Specification Guide, this has ID 1.8755, OD 3.3125, mounting seat OD min 1.877 & max 1.878, and bearing width 0.8145.
 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

A trip to the bearing shop today resulted in depressing news - no luck on the throwout bearing.  The Timken 1872 comes back as an obsolete shell for a bearing, but not the bearing proper.  All other numbers were so old that nothing came close to matching.  This is another setback as I was hoping to finally have the drive-train finished.  I hesitate to put this bearing back in and have it fail after a few hundred miles.  Spinning it reveals some rough sounding noises that are either worn bearings or grit and contamination in the grease inside.  I also notice a slight wobble when I spin the bearing.  Not good news.

 

Back to the drawing boards.  I did fill the transmission with oil, so we'll soon see if I've fixed the leak.

[Taylormade]

Some better news tonight - after 24 hours there is no sign of a leak.  I've been rotating the gears and shifting the trans and it's still dry.  I'll feel better if it lasts for a day or two, but in the past the leak always started within an hour or two of filling with oil.  I bought a throw-out bearing on EBay.  We'll see if it fits when it arrives.  I'm not holding my breath as I've been down this road too many times before.

[Spinneyhill]

Remember to try other brands. I found a current rear wheel bearing inner seal (same as yours) under NAK brand; there is no comparable size in any Timken-owned brand.

 

You can find a number of maker's documents on the 'net giving thrust bearings by size and style. 1872 is shown in the Timken Bearing Specification Guide 7534 as a "Clutch Release Bearing, Bearing Only - Thrust". 1872 should be a single row ball bearing. There are a number of other types in the book.

 

Is there a crack in that bolt hole?

Edited July 20, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

No crack.  That's a casting mark - a seam in the mold.

 

This is a picture of a Timken 1872 bearing.  It is listed as a throwout bearing, but it's obviously not what is on my car.  But I also have run into situations where the picture is just representative of the product and not the actual product.  It doesn't state that in this ad, but who knows?  Summit Racing also lists a Timken 1872 throwout bearing, but they show a "representative" photo, so I have no idea if it's really the correct bearing.  Waiting for the EBay purchase, and I'll go from there.

 

[jpage]

There used to be a company called Obsolete Bearings that carried alot of older stuff but I don't know if they're still around.

[Spinneyhill]

Yep, that is a representative picture. This is the picture in the Timken Bearing Specification Guide:

 

 

It is poor because that is what came in. This is also the shape of the bearing shown in the Master Parts Book drawings.

 

Ring Summit Racing and ask them to describe it to you over the phone? Including measuring it.

 

Timken also list an 1872-T with the same dimensions. I don't know the difference(s), but I would guess the radius of some of the corners might be different, or perhaps it doesn't have the shroud over the top?

Edited July 21, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[ILIKECARS53]

Try George Bachleda at 910 693 3324.  Have bought bearings from in the past.

[Taylormade]

Well, my E Bay bearing wasn't even close.  Too small OD and ID.  Back to the drawing board.  Little setbacks like this drive you crazy - a part way down deep in the drive-train, so I'll have to wait to put anything back together again.  At least my tranny shows no sign of any leaks!

[Spinneyhill]

Can you measure the size to confirm whether the numbers I put up there in #1042 are correct? You may have to go to an angular contact ball bearing. Tapered rollers are meant for short oscillatory motions such as in steering thrust bearings.

[Taylormade]

I did some searching on the net and found a place called Locate Ball Bearings.  They claim to have access to most bearing supplies in the U.S.  After talking to a guy in their Chat application, he found they had two C.T.30 New Departure bearings in stock, so I ordered them.  We'll see what happens when they arrive.  I won't be convinced they are correct until I see them, but he did mention that the original Chrysler part numbers were listed on the information sheet, and I'm hoping that this time will be the charm.  They should be here next week and I'll let everyone know the outcome of this adventure.  I bought both since he said these were the only two he could find anywhere.  I guess I'm either going to be a genius or a total sucker - only time will tell.

[keiser31]

We're wishing you the best of outcomes on this. Those 1931 and 1932 parts are a bear to find.

[Taylormade]

Well, I think your well wishing may have worked.  The bearings arrived yesterday and, as Spinneyhill said they are 1872 (despite my local bearing shop saying 1872 was only the race) and look like they will fit.  My next task was to get the old bearing off the mount.  This proved to be a real bear!  The new bearing helped determine just what was supposed to come off.  I discovered that the green area in the photo below was a seal that was held on by three swaged areas, two of which are visible in the shot.

 

 

 

How you get this off with the bearing in place I have no idea, so I tried to take the bearing off.  No amount of prying. pressure, swearing, or sweating seemed to work.  As I worked on it, the old bearing began to come apart.  I finally took what was left down to the local auto shop and we tried to press it out - but there was nothing to grip on the bearing anymore.  Back home I took the bearing totally apart until only the inner race remained.  With just the inner race in place, I could get the seal off without too much damage.  Then I had to grind the inner race down very carefully so I didn't get into any of the mount and damage it.  I finally cut a diagonal across the race and split it with a chisel, and BANG! it popped free.

 

Here's the mount and what's left of the old bearing.  The seal is in the lower left corner.

 

 

I plan to press the bearing on tomorrow and head down to the bearing shop to see if I can find a seal that fits.  I may be able to save the old one, but I hope I can find a new one that fits.

 

Ready to be assembled.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Wow! That is unusual that it took so much to remove that bearing!

[Spinneyhill]

Any number on the seal?

[Taylormade]

Yeah, I thought so, too.  I know you said yours was a fairly loose fit, but this thing was almost welded on!  Once I split it, it popped right off and the expected corrosion wasn't there.  It seems odd that just a press fit would be that tight, but it was.

[Taylormade]

1 minute ago, Spinneyhill said:

Any number on the seal?

Not that I can find.  Flat and blank on top and nothing on the sides.  I was hoping, too.  You can see in the photos there is nothing on it.

[Spinneyhill]

So the OD of the seal is the ID of the bearing. How wide is the land on which the seal sits so we can get an ID?

[Taylormade]

Well, the old seal doesn't fit in the new bearing.  The OD of the old seal is about 50mm - it's no longer round and varies between 50 and 51.  The ID of the new bearing is 47.5mm and the shaft it fits on is 42.95mm.  I guess the new bearings must be slightly different.

[Spinneyhill]

It looks like a tricky seal. The seal is on the outside rather than the inside? Is it felt in a channel of steel?

 

Do you grease the bearing as one does on the 1930 DC? Just thinking out loud, an O-ring would not do against grease pressure.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

It's felt inside steel channel.  I'll take a close shot tomorrow.  This bearing is lubed by a flexible metal tube with a grease cup at the end.  You turn the top of the grease cup every five hundred miles.  It's not real high pressure.

[Taylormade]

More information on the seal problem.  The seal fits on a lip on the sleeve.  In my Owner's Manual it shows the bearing and the sleeve, but there is no indication of any seal.  My car (and owner's manual) are very early in production numbers, The first month of DL models built, so it may have been changed in later models or when the throwout bearing was replaced sometime in my car's history.  I know Phil and I didn't ever mess with it.

 

 

So, my sleeve my be a retrofit and this may be where the problem is occurring.  On my current sleeve, the seal fits on a lip shown in the photo below.  The bearing fits on the fatter part of the sleeve below the lip.

 

 

This is the old seal resting on the top of the lip.  It slides down the lip and seats on the second lip.

 

Comparing the old bearing with the new one I purchased, the one notable difference is the inner diameter at the front of the bearing.  Both bearings are exactly the same at the rear of the bearing (46.7mm) which makes sense as that's the part that fits on the fat part of the sleeve.  But at the front, in inner diameter of the old bearing is 51.3mm while the new bearing is 47.85 mm.

 

 

The current seal is felt in a metal channel.  The size (metal only) is ID  41.9mm, OD 50.7mm, so the outer diameter is too large for my new bearing.  Looks like I need a 41.9mm X 47.85 or something close.  I'm not sure how they measure the outer felt area.  The inner diameter is metal on metal and should be the same.

 

 

I guess I'll poke around the internet and see what I can find.  If anyone has an extra sleeve lying around, I'd be curious if it has the lip for the seal or not.

 

 

 

 

[Taylormade]

I have the new bearing in place.  It was no slip fit!  As we pressed it on it popped onto the shaft with a bang like a gunshot.  No damage, so I guess everything is okay.  It turns smoothly and freely with no wobble like the old one.

 

 

At first I thought it wasn't all the way on as the old bearing sat so the inner lip that holds the seal stuck up maybe a 1/16th of an inch.  The new bearing must be just a bit thicker than the old one, as the back of the bearing is seated right against the ridge of the sleeve.

 

 

Thankfully, I didn't force anything trying to get it on farther.  This brings up another small problem.  If I can find a seal that fits, I may have to try and find one that is slightly thinner so I have room to swage it in place on the lip.

 

 

I can't tell you how much fun I'm having with this - NOT.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

Just finished running the plug wires I got a Hershey last year.  I just bought the raw wire and ends and made them up myself.  I know black is probably correct, but I couldn't resist the orange and black to add a little color to the engine compartment. Still need to install a few ends at the distributor.  Fishing the wires through the "loom" or whatever you call it was interesting.  To put it mildly, I'm not a patient guy.

 

 

[keiser31]

Yes, black is correct for the wire loom.

[Spinneyhill]

Neither Timken nor Koyo list any seals as thin as that between ID and OD, of the correct type (seal on the outside), let alone any other type. Neither of them list felt seals.

 

Can you carefully file down the channel you have and fit a felt washer of your own making (or even an O-ring)? I know one can buy O-ring material in strip or rope form " to make other sizes, I wonder if you can get any other sections? The ends are glued together using cyanoacrylate glue.

 

 

[Taylormade]

That may be the only solution.  It won't be easy as the metal of the seal is rather fragile, but I don't see any other way.  I do plan on stopping by the bearing shop Monday in a last ditch effort to find something.

[Taylormade]

I removed the felt from the seal and ground the outer diameter down to the correct size.  There is still a little meat left on the sides to hold in the felt or O-ring.  I need suggestions on the best approach.  Would an O-ring hold up in an application like this?  Constant spinning on the shaft, or is felt a better approach?  How do I hold the felt or O-ring in place, some sort of cement or...?  Has anyone bought felt from OlCar Bearings?  I was told George had precut felt for sale, or can I just buy a sheet of felt and cut my own?  Finally, is this a special type felt?  I assume it's not from Joanne Fabrics.  Sorry for all the questions - this is a first time deal for me and learning is what it's all about.

 

 

 

 

 

[Taylormade]

18 hours ago, keiser31 said:

Yes, black is correct for the wire loom.

 

Yes, guilty as charged, and my stainless bands on the starter and generator are incorrect, also.  To me it looks too good to change and I'm restoring the car for me.  I know all the purists out there are probably shaking their heads and wondering why I'm not over on the H.A.M.B site.   At least it's the original engine and suspension and not a crate 350 and a Fatman front end.

[keiser31]

7 minutes ago, Taylormade said:

 

Yes, guilty as charged, and my stainless bands on the starter and generator are incorrect, also.  To me it looks too good to change and I'm restoring the car for me.  I know all the purists out there are probably shaking their heads and wondering why I'm not over on the H.A.M.B site.   At least it's the original engine and suspension and not a crate 350 and a Fatman front end.

What I meant to say is that the bracket holding the spark plug wiring is correct by being black.

[Taylormade]

" What I meant to say is that the bracket holding the spark plug wiring is correct by being black. "

 

I thought the wires were probably black, too.  And I certainly didn't take any offense to your post, my comment was supposed to be humorous.  My wife has tried to talk me into painting the body maroon for years, but I told her I wanted to keep the original black.  it's all relative, I guess.  Please keep the comments coming, you're one of my go to guys!

Edited July 30, 2016 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[keiser31]

I believe the wire colors are correct, too. I originally wanted to paint my first 1931 DB coupe maroon with black fenders. My Dad had the information about Marquette Blue and so I will paint it the original blue....maybe. Both of my coupes came blue, originally, but I would like to have a variety. Oh....I never thought anyone was being offensive. I am really enjoying this thread.

Edited July 30, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

Did the 31s have black window trim?  One of the things that has always bothered me about the 32s is that the body was all one color.  No black accents around the windows or beltline.  It's one of the reasons I don't really want to paint it maroon as I would have to cheat and use black or a contrasting color around the windows and belt.

[keiser31]

I remember very well that my original '31 had a dark woodgrain pattern....some of it is still on the interior trim.

Edited July 30, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Here is a '31 that I saw as a kid after I had decided to paint mine maroon....

[Spinneyhill]

Back to the seal... An O-ring would do the job as long as it is kept lubricated and clean. And that's the rub. If you are diligent on the grease cup at specified intervals, OK. The bearing surface will be a suitable smooth finish. The purpose of using the little case is to hold it in place and provide some lateral support in case you are a bit exuberant on the grease cup. You might need to put in something to hold the O-ring in place to one side of the carrier channel - maybe two O-rings, well lubricated when installed.

 

As for felt, you need to use something as thick as the space available in the carrier you have just fabricated. At least the felt will retain a bit of grease if one neglects turning the grease cup from time to time. A strip will do the job if it is just the right length. I can't recall the thickness you need, but there are a number of sellers of felt on ebay, for example, in suitable small pieces. You probably need a dense wool felt, not polyester.

 

[Taylormade]

I bought some felt from Grainger.  It's advertised as the correct hardness and durability for shaft and bearing seals, so I should be okay.  It comes in sheet, so I should be able to cut strips in the correct size with a little work.  Anyone have any suggestions on a good method of holding the felt in the channel?  The was enough thickness to pin the felt in on the original seal, but now it's too thin to do that.  I need something that will adhere the felt without soaking into it.  I assume that once it's in place, the pressure will hold it in, but getting it into place without the felt slipping out may be a problem.  As thin as it is now, getting it back out will be difficult if I make a mistake.

[Taylormade]

On 7/30/2016 at 2:05 PM, keiser31 said:

Here is a '31 that I saw as a kid after I had decided to paint mine maroon....

Solid color, with no black along the beltline or around the windows.  That's the way the 32s came, but I don't know if this is correct for a 31.  I'm pretty sure the maroon grill insert should be black, as well as the piece above the running boards between the fenders.

[Taylormade]

Here is Phil Kennedy's very original  DL.  Although it's been repainted a slightly brighter color than the original Mercedes Drab, notice that the entire body of the car is gray.  This is correct.

 

 

Here's a 32 with the beltline, widow trim, and roof a contrasting color.  It looks pretty good, but as far as I know it is incorrect.  32s were not painted this way.  This is an 8 cylinder model, so I may be incorrect for the cars with two extra cylinders.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Taylormade (see edit history)