Four barrel vs two barrel carb-----need more advice

[Guest btate]

I am adding power steering and air conditioning and with only 188 hp , I thought it would help if I added a four barrel. My question: do I have to use the original wcfb Carter or can I purchase an more updated carb, other words is there an adapter plate I can purchase? If so, where do I purchase it. Also since a three groove is so hard to find, why can't I find a pulley that is same o.d. And send it out to a machine shop and have it fit to the crank. I am not a mechanic, so I hope this is not a dumb question. Thanks

[wildcat1562]

first off, what kind of car is it and what type of engine?

ghildebrand@wi.rr.com

let me know

Greg

[PONTIAC1953]

to your first question, the answer is no, an engine with 188 horsepower is more than enough to handle the adding of power steering and a/c. 1954 pontiacs with power steering and a/c had a straight eight with only 127 horsepower. you mention nothing about changing the two barrel manifold for a four barrel manifold. that's the only proper way to change from a two to a four barrel carburetor. on to your second question, you're better off to hunt and find the right harmonic balancer assembly, what year and make of car are you wanting to add power steering and a/c to ?. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor.

[Guest]

to your first question, the answer is no, an engine with 188 horsepower is more than enough to handle the adding of power steering and a/c. 1954 pontiacs with power steering and a/c had a straight eight with only 127 horsepower. you mention nothing about changing the two barrel manifold for a four barrel manifold. that's the only proper way to change from a two to a four barrel carburetor. on to your second question, you're better off to hunt and find the right harmonic balancer assembly, what year and make of car are you wanting to add power steering and a/c to ?. charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor.

The only thing I would add to Charles excellent answer is that you might want to check and see if the 4bbl. version of your engine has a different camshaft, If your cam is different (smaller) you might make better horsepower with the 2bbl it was designed for rather than over-carburate the engine wasting fuel. There is a GM 4bbl carburetor that can be used on various engine sizes and camshaft sizes, in other words can be used on different engines of different CFM requirements. That carburetor would be the spread bore Quadrajet. Pontiac used this carburetor from the OHC six cylinder to the 455 inch V-8 and everything in between. But like Greg says; we need to know what year and engine family.

D.

[60FlatTop]

I'm trying to remember the last time one of my cars revved over 3,000 RPM (well, maybe I do:o). You sure don't need a 4 barrel in typical driving power ranges.

Bernie

[buick5563]

He is talking about a 55 Special with a 264.

The two barrel will give you better "off the line" response, since you have a bigger primary portion than the four barrel. I have experience with two and four barrel carbs on 55's, and in my experience the four barrel gets better mileage due to this fact. The 264 will suffer a bit under added accessories. You will definitely need at least a two groove pulley on your crankshaft and water pump. I am running just two belts on my driver wagon. The first belt is crank, water pump, power steering. Second belt is crank, water pump, generator AND Sanden compressor. If you use an original A5, or pseudo-period correct A6, you should have two belts for the generator/ compressor combo.

[old-tank]

Mike is correct --- the 2bbl will flow better than the primaries of the the 4bbl wcfb and will give better seat-of-the-pants acceleration. The only time the 4bbl performs better is in WOT above 4,000 rpm. Edelbrock sells copies of the old Carter AFB that can be adapted to the Buick 4bbl manifold, but that is probably too much carb for the 264.

I have a 264 in my 51 F-1: wcfb 4bbl, dual exhaust, standard tranny, 3.92 gears --- that thing is a screaming fun ride. It is probably the 3.92 gears that contribute the most to the quick run up to 5,000 to 6,000 rpm:eek:.

My first 55 was a Special like yours with a Sears under dash unit that had a big ol' honkin' chunk of compressor. Keeping cool was more important than performace when that thing was on.

The 264 and the 322 are both externally balanced (meaning that pulleys, balancers and flywheels contribute to engine balance), but differently, so the front pulleys/balancers are not interchangeable. If you could get a 322 balancer matched to the balance of the 264 pulley, there are more readily available pulleys for the crank.

Willie

[RivNut]

The only problem with switching to a later or aftermarket carb is that none of those will have the accelerator start mechanism built into them. Best to find an original 4 bbl manifold, and carb.

[Guest btate]

Thanks Mike, I forgot to say which car. It is a 55 ' buick special 264 ci--------Willie, I thought the 264 was internally balanced! You information from all. Thanks Bill

[NTX5467]

ONE thing to remember is that the additional quoted horsepower for the 4bbl option ONLY happens at RATED PEAK engine speed, NOT at 2000rpm or so.

Power steering is a constant power consumption situation. With no real demands being put upon the system, there is very little power consumption in the pump. IF you hold the steering wheel at full lock and keep it there, the pump will be in "bypass" mode and also make its full pressure (consuming a few more horsepower in the process). By observation, an a/c compressor consumes a good bit more power.

There are some of the AFBs that were rated at 500cfm, which is probably a little more than the WCFBs had. For the engine sizes of 264 and 322, that's plenty! In some cases, the smaller primary thorttle bores on the 4bbls can give better fuel economy and throttle response than the larger throttle bores of a 2bbl carb, but in other cases, (as in the '70s Chevy 350 with the 1.69" throttle bore Rochester 2GC carb), the 2bbl versions run pretty much right beside a similar 4bbl QJet 350 (same cam and compression ratio) V-8. With the 350 2bbl having a "let's go!" feel that the QJet motor lacks, at lower rpms. My suspicion as to why the WCFB on a 322 might be more fuel-efficient than a similar 322 2bbl V-8 would be that the WCFB is a "metering rod" carburetor rather than a "fixed jet" carburetor.

Remember, too, the smaller the engine, the EASIER it is to over-carburate and over-cam the engine . . . without really trying. Especially with displacements of less than 300 cid, by observation.

I know there's a general orientation to "improve" on the factory engine spec "combination", BUT there are also times when the factory specs pretty much hit things "dead on". Perhaps NOT in all situations, but certainly in many. Considering the smaller, high-velocity (hopefully) ports in a nail-head Buick V-8, staying with the carburetor as the limiting factor (of sorts) on the ultimate power of the engine would be best. IF you tried to "improve" things very much, then you'd find the intake ports would be the next thing in line as the main restriction to additional power. This could easily become one of those "one thing leads to another" situations! Lots of time and money invested with little real benefit gained, unfortunately . . . and gains ONLY at higher-than-cruising-speed rpm levels.

Rather than focus on carb upgrades, I feel there's more to be gained in ignition system upgrades . . . to a Pertronix system (of similar). I highly suspect the existing point cam lobe has wear on it and ALL lobe high-spots are not all the same height. Therefore, adding an electronic system will move past that situation plus the other benefits an electronic ignition system can have. WHY would the lobes' high spot heights be of interest? That's where each individual cylinder's "point dwell" happens, which can relate to the coil saturation time (the "zap" factor) determines how hot each spark is, plus point dwell length also affects when the spark happens (ignition timing). Getting all cylinders' sparks happening at the exact same time EACH and every time should help overall efficiency and such, although "results might vary". Still, though, the maintenance decrease can be beneficial, even for an occasional-use vehicle.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest btate]

I never expected to get such in-depth answers. I will for sure print this top notch information off and save to make my final decision. I am willing to pay up to $5000. For a newly rebuilt 322 nailhead. Does anyone know where I could get one?

[carbking]

The two-barrel, as stated by others, will feel stronger at the lower RPM; and will produce more low end torque UP TO A CERTAIN RPM!

The fact that the venturi in the two-barrel is larger than the primary on the four-barrel accounts for this. Think of the fact that I.H.C. and G.M.C. trucks with engines as large as 450 CID used a two-barrel..............TORQUE.

However, the efficiency of the two-barrel will be less than that of the four-barrel, and economy, both in town and at highway speeds will suffer to some degree.

If you should consider changing to the four-barrel (not recommending that you do, just information); there are NO carburetors produced today that are as efficient for your engine as the original as calibrated by Buick engineers (not to mention the modifications necessary for hooking one up).

Willis - somewhat surprised at your comment concerning pertronix. The very first question we ask when a new prospective customer calls us with "carburetor trouble" is: "have you installed a pertronix conversion? If so, take it out and install the points and condenser for testing". You would be surprised at how many times the customer calls back, thanks us, and states they will call us again when they actually have a carburetor issue. An electronics engineer told me that when converting to pertronix (or any other electronic ignition) one should also convert to an alternator. Seems the generator does not have sufficiently stable voltage for the electronics.

Jon.

Edited July 31, 2012 by carbking (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Carbking's reply reminds me that although we have a share of ignition problems, just imagine how many more there would be if the distributor was bristling with "adjusting" screws like a carburetor!

Bernie

[Guest btate]

You guys have thoroughly convinced me to stay with the 2 bbl. I do have one more question and that is : should I soak the carburetor in a cleaner while the engine is being rebuilt?

[NTX5467]

Carbking, I wasn't aware of the issues of generators vs. alternators with Pertronix units. My main idea was to end up where each cylinder fired when it was supposed to with a uniformly-hot spark for each cylinder. Seems like somebody is now doing alternators in generator housings? I do know that any electronic "box" has a minimum voltage for it to fire the plugs. Some more than others.

NTX5467

[Guest btate]

I am going to have a my mechanic read this as I know I do nor quite no what has been said. at times I am going for 2 bbl and the next a four barrel . Then I thought for sure the Pertronics was for sure a device that would enhance the I am for sure confused

[MrEarl]

I've been following your "confusion" and am wondering if maybe you're not trying to hard here. I'm wondering how do you plan to use the car. If you're only going to use it for parades or a cruise in or show once or twice a year, why go to the expense and trouble and headaches and time and confusion of adding ANYTHING to the car. Now if you are going to use it as a daily driver as well as all the above then that's another story. If that's the case I suggest you consider doing the following and in this order

1. Add a dual cylinder brake master cylinder and exchange the front brake drums for a set of wider Roadmaster drums. Coupled with sensible driving, this will be plenty of stopping power.
   
2. Have the engine compression tested and if really bad, (ie varies greatly from cylinder to cylinder) go for a rebuild of the 264.
   
3. If you have the engine rebuilt, replace seals and gaskets in the Dynaflow while is out. Even if you don't have the engine rebuilt, go ahead and replace the tranny torque tube seals in the rear with the new and improved vulcanized torque ball parts.
   
4. Whether you have the engine rebuilt or not, add a 4 bbl Carter. A nice simple easy to rebuild and trouble free carb, no need for anything else. I think the little bit of extra punch would be appreciated in driving on today's highways and byways. The Dynaflow is sorta sluggish anyway and any added punch you can get will help. You're already lucky that it is a 55 with the "passing gear" throttle linkage to the Dynaflow. I can push the accelerator through the floor of my 54's and the ol D'flow just takes it's little ol time responding.
   
5. Add a power steering unit. THIS is probably going to be the biggest headache of all, but for a daily driver, worth the effort. The units aren't easy to find, you will probably want to have it rebuilt and pulling the existing one can put your left nut in your right shoe.
   
6. Get a set of Coker BF Goodrich BIAS PLY tires. Your suspension was designed for bias plys, radials aren't going to do anything but make the car look tacky.
   
7. Hide a nice stereo in the glove box, insert a "My Buick My Love and I" CD and hit the Buick Highway.
   

Just some thoughts. Hi ho, hi ho, off to work I go. Hope I didn't get this to far off topic.

[Leif Holmberg]

In my opinion you had better to bay a 1955-1956 Roadmaster with all those"options" on the right place from the beginning.Remember that a"new bolt on power steering" dosen`t exist even if the seller say it does.I have done this job on a 1956 and I wouldn`t do it again without the engine removed.

Leif in Sweden

[Guest btate]

I will be using the car some, such as the NSRA show now in Louisville, ky which is 221 miles from Chattanooga. I drove my 1949 Olds coupe this time. I will travel to difference shows from time to time but whether I go anywhere I want to thi k the engine and transmission and all other parts are always ready to go to California If I wanted to go. Mentally I just want to know it is sound. According to one post the 2 bbl carb is better in low gears than the 4bbl, but the 4bbl is better ay 3000rpm. Well I want be at 3000rpm or maybe not at 2000 rpm. So, if that is true, then I am staying with the two bbl. As we speak the transmission is under complete repair and the engine will start under repair Monday. Thanks regarding the Roadmaster larger brake drums, as I was going to spring for front disc brakes. I have purchased the new power steering and the engine is out, so hopefully, we will not have much trouble. I had already decided on the dual brake master cylinder . I still am up in the dark regarding the Pertronix module. What do you thi k?

[old-tank]

Pertonix: I have posted this rant before....(I just changed my stock points, condenser and plugs at 28,000 miles)

There is nothing special about installing electronic ignition in a stock distributor. Maybe if you adapted an HEI to your engine you might get the advantage of the larger distributor cap, thicker wires and the ability to install plugs with a wider gap. Any ignition system, electronic or points is just a switch, with electronic only having the advantage of working at high rpm (6,000+).

Also I have had some disasters with the Pertronix unit. It worked (same as stock with no increase in mpg, power or driveability) for 5,000 miles and then my rotor burned. Burned as in it literally caught fire inside the distributor and burned the tip off. The next year a friend had the exact same thing happen. Not heeding those incidents, I put the same unit in another engine with you guessed it... It seems that the carbon rod between the center and tip of a 55 rotor is what burns.

Calls to Pertronix were useless, since they offered no technical support. The original instructions for wiring to the car called for bypassing the resistor on the firewall. This is supposed to result in a hotter spark if used with their 'FlameThrower' coil. Internet research showed new installation instructions: use a stock coil and don't bypass the firewall resistor. I have not tried this and you should not either just to pay for an expensive switch.

Stock points/condensor will last 30,000 miles and will serve you well, just like they did when these old cars were contemporary. I would rather change them when I want to, not in the hot parking lot of a truck stop in Little Rock, AR. I still have the Pertronix and might sell it to someone I don't like, but would not sell or give to a friend.

Willie

[NTX5467]

In earlier times, many in this forum installed and recommended the Pertronix unit, which would have been the (now) basic unit, rather than the current (came later) variations.

In some cases, it seems that the electronic ignition people have the impression that ONLY people seeking performance increases purchse their products, so they sometimes tend to skew their installation recommendations to play to that market . . . hotter spark, etc. . . . via resistor by-passes AND hotter coils (which they also sell), neither of which a stock engine really needs to start and run reliably . . . as Old-Tank and others later discovered.

I "fell" for that deal too, when purchasing a Mopar Perf electronic ignition kit. It also comes with the fabled "Orange Box" control unit, which needs about 11 volts in the battery to fire the plugs. If the battery voltage is not to the necessary level, it'll sit there and spin the motor as if it wants to start, but won't . . . until some jumper cables are added to elevate the battery voltage slightly, then it starts like it was expected to. So, knowing that, I got a normal control box. BUT I also added the "constant voltage" electronic voltage regulator (designed to replace the stock "points" regulator), as suggested. With that elevated voltage, as I later discovered in the perf manual, this constantly higher voltage will affect the durability of ALL electrical items in the car . . . which also turned out to be accurate as I suddenly discovered several poor wire splices in "the red wire" going to the ignition switch! I fixed that and put the orig voltage regulator back in the car and things have worked well every since. In many respects, this is similar to what Old-Tank did with the Pertronix, when he used it. But, I didn't return to the points distributor in my Chrysler as I'd already had "enough" trying to get the point gap and dwell to coincide as they should, due to the variable wear on the distributor points cam lobes . . . cylinder to cylinder. Be that as it may. Key thing is that each of us found what we liked best.

I understand Mr. Earl's recommendation of the Carter/Edelbrock AFB as it is a good carb that works well, but it will most probably need some fuel curve calibration tweaking for the Buick's needs. The 500cfm unit would best fit the smaller engine, though. Otherwise, the stock 2bbl should be just fine for most uses.

Regards,

NTX5467

[RivNut]

Perhaps this would be a solution. Two barrels for your daily needs, then a little bling for some ommmpph!

[Guest btate]

Thanks to all

[MrEarl]

Ed, is this yours and is it for sale. I have someone looking for one of these for a 364 and from what I understand these can be retrofitted. Let me know.

[RivNut]

Mr. Earl,

It's a picture that I copied and pasted from the internet. You might contact Charlie at Vintage Speed in Florida and see what he might have for you.

Ed