thehandleman Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Here is my pair on Ebay they say Bair and there a right and left take a look eBay item number: 224119451521 https://www.ebay.com/itm/224119451521 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 For what it's worth, I took a look at the Master Parts List, 9th edition, that I was able to download from somewhere... It shows part number 1420 and 1421 for touring top rests (left & right) and a photo/drawing of such labeled as 1420/1421. Note the position of where the clamp is that holds the rest to the rod coming from the car body. It seems to be in the same position, relative to the top bow, as my photos of the ,25 touring. The parts list is rather confusing though. My car is serial number A323XXX and I wasn't sure which column number applied.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 30, 2020 Author Share Posted August 30, 2020 Thanks for posting this Mike. Now we have more numbers other than #314 that Three Pedals posted earlier. Ray White posted a picture of a bottom mount clamp on a saddle with no offset angle to keep saddle in line with body since our mounting holes in body are on the rounded corner of the tub. Could the mounting rod be of some funny angle? Anyway, I measured the clearance of the top of the spare and the body hole with only 3/4" inch between them. Simple physics shows the bows need to be high enough to not interfere with the spare tire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 Hi Pete. It's been a while! I no longer have the car but I still have the top saddles. Would you be interested in them? Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 Hey Ray! Didn't know you sold the Dodge. Hope everything is OK. It is quite generous of your fine offer for the top saddles. Question; Did you have them on the Dodge and did the top fold down properly into them? Reason I ask, Not really knowing how the originals presented on the car, the body "hole" is on the curve of body and the picture I see in your posting the saddle is a "straight" rod made to go right straight into a mounting "hole". Wouldn't the saddles be canted backward about 15 degrees if they were put in the '25 Dodge body "holes"? Will the top bows lay into the canted saddles? Did they originally? I think only you would know this if the saddles were actually used on your old Dodge. If these work, I'd be grateful to purchase them since they DO have a bottom rod mount to keep the Blumin' top off the rear spare! Anxious to hear from you Ray! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Good morning to you Pete. Yes, it has been over a year now since the DB and I parted company but although I had bought the top saddles from a guy over your side of the Pond I never fitted them. The reason I didn't fit them was because it would have meant disturbing the interior leather and cutting holes in the body as it had never had top saddles fitted. You may remember this is not a standard body but a coach built version carried out by a firm in Sydney Australia. I had more pressing issues as you may remember! These top saddles were sold to me as Dodge Brothers but I found out early on that if I wanted to fit them then I would need to fabricate some steel tubes set into the body at an angle or the bows would not fit because - as you say - the curve of the body. If you don't have tube type fittings that are set at the correct angle then you would need to fit them. What d'ya think? Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Hello Ray Sorry to hear that you and your beloved DB have parted company I hope that she went to a good home and not some Dodgy Codger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Ron Lawson said: Hello Ray Sorry to hear that you and your beloved DB have parted company I hope that she went to a good home and not some Dodgy Codger Hello Ron. Yes, I had to part with my DB and I am not entirely sure I did the right thing. I was under pressure from swmbo to move it on and get something more "sporty" that she could enjoy driving too. I still have my Austin Swallow saloon but that is now joined by a 1949 MG TC. Unfortunately, the car was mutton cleverly disguised as lamb and requires a total rebuild including a new body. The DB went to auction as there was no interest privately. I have no idea who bought it but they got an absolute bargain. I hope you and yours are keeping safe and well! Ray. Edited August 31, 2020 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted August 31, 2020 Author Share Posted August 31, 2020 Hey Ray, It's a bit past noon here, just got to computer after a busy morning packing up Granddaughter's summer visit here in New England and back to Virginia she goes to start her first year in high school. I weighed the factors about your saddles compared to my years of my aftermarket saddles I'm making, well they're still not done after 8 years! (Hoping to fall over a proper set!)--no luck. I think I would have a much better game plan starting with your set. They would only need an offset by 15 degree or so AND yours will support the bows most securely I think. So, Let me know what the "whole ball of wax" will be to get them To 42 Cherry Street, Danvers, Massachusetts, "Zip code" 01923. Cost of saddles, boxing, postage/fees, YOUR TIME also! Thank you 10 times over Ray, Very best regards, Pete Kesting, Sr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Hello again Pete. I will need to look into it having never posted anything to the States before. Please bear with me. I will be back in touch again in a few days. Kind regards, Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Thanks for your reply Ray. Take your time on the deal, it's only been 8 years I've searched for a set, I certainly can wait longer! I still have to do work on the rear brakes and some carb adjustments on the old beast here. Lord knows when I'll get to it. Several years ago, I sold an old Zippo lighter to the winning bidder on Ebay. He was in Japan! I thought the worst! Boy was I wrong. I took package (taped up cardboard box) with his address on front and was told to fill out this tiny little form which contained just our addresses and value of item if insured. That was it! The post clerk stuck it on the package, took the very reasonable cost from me and said "Good Day". Since that, I've never squirmed again when I sold an item overseas. Hope things go as smooth. Best regards Ray, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePedals Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 Here's a photo of page 20 from my original Dodge Brothers Book of Information, eighteenth edition, dated November 1924 (the exact month my car was manufactured). The Top Rest of a Touring Car is well represented here. Note, the side iron at rest appears to follow the body line nicely, sweeping just slightly upward. The spare tire can be seen here for reference as well. To hear of an eight year search is truly disheartening. I'll check with my regional DB club (Northern California) to see if an example is available in hand then advocate strongly for reproducing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePedals Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 By the way, I'm also in search of the two latches that secure the top to the windshield, and a rectangular glass rear window (backlight) that I'm told has beveled edges and hard to find metal framework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 The image may be an artist's impression, I don't know, but there doesn't appear to be any offset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 Hi Pete. Is there no private message function now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehandleman Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 Sold my set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Ray, click on the blue envelope icon up top, you may see what you need for private messages. Thanks ThreePedals for your pictures. Ray may be right about an artist's rendition or maybe a retouched picture going on here. The saddle bottom mount on Ray's picture, (post #11, 1st page) is different than the pictures of the saddle mounting point in your Eighteenth Edition, 1924. I have the Book Of Info, "Seventeenth Edition", dated March, 1925, not showing those photo's. What a Gyp. ThreePedals, are you sure about your Edition number? Wouldn't the 1924 edition be the Sixteenth? Why would the Seventeenth come AFTER the Eighteenth? Am I going loony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 I have the 18th edition. It covers 1926 but there are some older pictures used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 Hi Pete. I have tried sending you a PM but it won't allow me to send a message. I have tried to Pete Kesting./ Pete K/ Peter Kesting etc. but no go. You can email me: raywhite750@btinternet.com Cheers Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 This might help. I found this out on Facebook Marketplace. It looks to me like the saddles are angled straight out f the mounting holes. The saddles must be built large enough to allow the bows to sit in them at an angle. You be the judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 2, 2020 Author Share Posted September 2, 2020 Hey JayG, Thank you very much for those images. I have to admit, they appear to be at a slight angle, but the bottom image shows the "lowest" bow sitting at a right angle to the saddle. Hmmm... I found an old set of '22(?) Roadster saddles (305R &305L) Are they even Dodge? Maybe, The lower bow doesn't seem to want to sit at the slightest angle in them. The images that ThreePedals posted shows what appears to be right angles saddle -to-body. The saddles Ray W. has were never on his Dodge and the car is gone now. He also related his Dodge body was a custom job and had no body sockets installed. Is there ANYONE on this site that has a 1925 touring with the correct saddles??????? Meaning have you used them and do saddles keep your top off the spare?? I'm still working with Ray, but England has the highest postal rates in the WORLD. It would bring my total cost over $400. Anyone got a really sturdy BOAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 Something needs to be done about the cost of shipping. Here in the U.K. great store is being placed on a "trade deal" between our countries. There would not be much point in slashing tariffs if it still costs a fortune to send and receive goods.. Brexit has meant we really, really need to establish better trading conditions with the rest of the World. There are huge potential benefits to being an independent Nation so the U.K. had decided to walk away from the restrictive E.U. We had better start getting serious about International trade...and soon!!! Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 Yes, I wish someone with a documented original with top rests would help out with this. Also, I hate to tell you all this but I recognize that car in the photos just posted. It is being offered for sale by the same guy I bought my car from. I took some close up photos of the top irons because mine had no top hardware at all. Here's a close of shot how the top rests were fabricated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 (edited) Can someone refresh my memory again... with everything else going on in life I forgot what year this is. I hope to make a trip to the yard this weekend if I get some free time and I will gladly check to see what the numbers are (IF the saddles are still there) if anyone needs me to. Edited September 2, 2020 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePedals Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 The red car just doesn't look right, the primered car looks better. The mounting stud must be angled to rotate the left saddle clockwise and the right saddle counterclockwise (as seen from above) so the saddles can accept the bars that are essentially parallel side to side. We know there are two part numbers and that the difference isn't in the saddle itself. I think the red car has saddles with straight mounting studs. We know the body holes are on the corners. Here's mine with a bolt in it to show the angle. There is no way the top would mate well in a saddle at that angle. Sorry I haven't had time recently to reach out to club members here locally just yet. We'll figure this out. If I find them, no worries, I'll have them reproduced, period. I've been researching 3D printing in metal. We got this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 I dug through my DB photos and found this of possible interest. I think this was an example David Coco sent me of a 1918 DB he was doing the top on. Note that the top rest looks similar to the parts list diagram and the ones on the '25 show car I posted earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePedals Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 This came from another thread. I'll toss it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 The rusty car in the bone yard looks like a '28 Standard. Probably no parts will transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 3, 2020 Author Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) I want to thank you all for your input on this 8 year thread! I can't agree with you more Ray! Mike, That's a funky saddle. Still too low though but OK if you ditch the spare! (I thought that car looked familiar). ---30DodgePanel, I don't think that's a Dodge, but those old saddles look high enough. I believe it is a 1924 REO. ThreePedals, Thanks, I couldn't get this picture of my Dodge the way you have done to show the angle I've been harping about. The listing is also invaluable for the part numbers even though they don't jive with Mike's listing (here we go again!) Reproducing them would be a phenomenal undertaking! Cast would be risky, need to be forged iron since there's a "ton" of force put upon the T handle to lock down the bail and the point of mounting takes a ton of weight from that blumin' top, especially when one hits a "bump" in the road! Best of luck, I shall pray for you and your efforts. Edited September 3, 2020 by Pete K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Rodger's list of numbers is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 7 hours ago, ThreePedals said: The red car just doesn't look right, the primered car looks better. The mounting stud must be angled to rotate the left saddle clockwise and the right saddle counterclockwise (as seen from above) so the saddles can accept the bars that are essentially parallel side to side. We know there are two part numbers and that the difference isn't in the saddle itself. I think the red car has saddles with straight mounting studs. We know the body holes are on the corners. With respect; I think they are one and the same car. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 The pics are of the same car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 (edited) On 8/23/2020 at 5:45 AM, nearchoclatetown said: OK, that's it. We need a catalog. Not aware of any early catalogs but I did find these patents CL Bair applied for And an earlier version if needed Edited September 6, 2020 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 Well those are interesting. The top saddle drawing shows the saddle must have slid into a keyed type mount on the car. I never saw one like that, nor have I seen a coil spring incorporated with a saddle like the bottom picture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Pete K. said: Well those are interesting. The top saddle drawing shows the saddle must have slid into a keyed type mount on the car. It does make one wonder... Much study could be done on this one topic and I'm sure you'd have your days filled trying to find the answers. Will continue to look but the info on the web is soooo limited for these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 On 9/3/2020 at 12:02 PM, Pete K. said: I want to thank you all for your input on this 8 year thread! I can't agree with you more Ray! Mike, That's a funky saddle. Still too low though but OK if you ditch the spare! (I thought that car looked familiar). ---30DodgePanel, I don't think that's a Dodge, but those old saddles look high enough. I believe it is a 1924 REO. ThreePedals, Thanks, I couldn't get this picture of my Dodge the way you have done to show the angle I've been harping about. The listing is also invaluable for the part numbers even though they don't jive with Mike's listing (here we go again!) Reproducing them would be a phenomenal undertaking! Cast would be risky, need to be forged iron since there's a "ton" of force put upon the T handle to lock down the bail and the point of mounting takes a ton of weight from that blumin' top, especially when one hits a "bump" in the road! Best of luck, I shall pray for you and your efforts. The rests on my car, like many used on Australian made bodies, are cast bronze - presumably a phosphor bronze which has strength similar to steel. The force you mention is applied to the hook and the hinge pin - both of which are steel. Their location points are in the thickest part of the casting and I've never seen failure in this area. Consult your local For reference, Holdens bodied roadsters like mine have the locating pins at an angle whereas those on the Holdens tourers come straight out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete K. Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 Tony, That is one nice Dodge Brothers roadster! I've worked with phosphor bronze before and it is tough. You shed a multitude of info here, explaining to my thoughts why Ray White's saddles are "straight" mount (see picture WAY back on page 1) relating to his English bodied Dodge. The corner mount type, (as my car), have a cast-in angle mounting ON the saddle as I believe I once saw which is why there is a left and a right saddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Hi Pete. Just to correct something. My tourer was imported from Australia where it was bodied. It may or may not have had saddles fitted in the past but I found no evidence of any mounting points. It is entirely possible that if any had been there they could have been either removed or covered up when the car body was restored. I bought my saddles from Iola U.S.A. about 9 years ago. They both have the number 436 (raised) but there is no name. I have checked and the total price including shipping was £222.16. They were incomplete but I have made a missing expander 'end' and extended the threads on two new 5" x 3/8" BSW bolts. Both saddles are now complete and working. If you wanted to fit saddles like mine with a straight 3/4" shaft, I think you would need to ensure that the mounting tubes are set at a suitable angle. They also need to be a fairly snug fit to enable the expander to grip when the bolt is tightened. Please let me know if you are still interested. If they can fit your car I would like you to have them. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 I just went out and looked at some that I have. I did find one 140R, but don't see makers mark on it. The above list shows that number for 15-19 touring, but looks too short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 140 L&R is correct for '14 to '19. Bair is cast in the flipper along with the patent date. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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