Good deal and a reflection of declining car values?

[Guest 36chev]

Hope it is ok to post this here. If need needs to be moved or deleted, moderators feel free to do so. I did not put it in Buy/Sell since it's not mine.

In playing on ebay this morning, found this 1936 Chevrolet for sale (not mine). Thought others might be interested.

It appears to be a good buy. Unfortunately, it may mean my 36 (which is problably not as well restored as this one) no longer holds the value I had hoped .

Edited March 31, 2012 by 36chev (see edit history)

[Guest 36chev]

Oops, need to think before posting. After re-reading the title, I see that it could be interpreted "moral' values. It is about monetary value. Is there any way to edit the title of a posting? It should say something like "...car values."

[junkyardjeff]

Looks like someone does not know what its worth or needs some quick money,I wish I had the money and its not too far from me to look at it. At first I was thinking it could be a scam which it still could be but its most likely a uninformed seller.

[Guest 36chev]

After taking another look at the pictures, I see that the wheels are from a later 1930's Chevrolet (maybe so that 16" tires could be used instead of the 17" from 1936). But that isn't a big deal. If the seller doesn't still have the original rims, they're easily found.

These are good driving, attractive art deco style cars in my opinion. So maybe someone can check it out. I don't have the $$$$ and it's not close enough to go look at. Car is located in Ohio.

Edited March 31, 2012 by 36chev (see edit history)

[R Walling]

I have also seen the declining values in collectors cars. My own 65 mustang is shown to be worth much less in the value guides as in previous years.

I guess that it has more to do with available cash as to the actual value.

[Durant Mike]

I'm not sure the prices are really declining but just coming back down to earth. Prior to 2008 when the stock market did its thing, collector car prices were going out of the roof. Muscle cars were bringing 6 figures and many fine collector cars were being priced right out of the average man's market. Only the wealthy could afford to pay the ridiculous prices we saw on Barrett Jackson etc. I we all wondered why our car hobby and the AACA was loosing young members. Many could not even think of affording some of the cars they liked and grew up with. It has always been a problem too that many collector car owners put a much too high price on their cars because of emotion and not reality. Because some person got over $100,000.00 for their Mustang then if you have Mustang you think yours is worth that too or you just have the thought that hey I'll through a large price out there and if some fool wants to pay that then It's great for me. The problem all to often is that same car sits and sits and rusts so bad that the person does not do anything with it or he passes on and his heirs sell it for junk or scrap. I've always been of the mind, sell it for a fair price and let it get back into the market so someone can restore it and enjoy it and more important drive it. I once got into a heated discussion with someone about their car. I had told someone that a car was worth whatever someone was willing to pay for it. This individual had just spent over $80,000 to have it restored and I told him he would never get that for that car because of the make and year. I ruffled his feathers but the truth is that that car will be sold by his heirs for far less than he paid to restore it. Just the facts. You have to restore them for you and to love and enjoy them and not for the investment value. My two cents worth.

[jscheib]

durant28,

Well said. Prices are moving to be more realistic.

I have told my children to enjoy the cars after I am gone, as they will not be able to sell them for what it costs to restore. I am in the process of securing a long term storage solution so they can hold the cars without too much problem in the future. Or, I guess, they can sell the cars and the storage building.

John

[alsancle]

Isn't 9k for a 2 door sedan plenty? Also, declining prices really depends on the car. I've never seen so much money spent on Duesenbergs and very high end restorations in general.

[Dynaflash8]

I guess the problem I see, and personally have, is that I don't know how to price my car. If I price it at a price that dealers are getting, I don't even get a phone call. If I price it too low, then somebody, most likely a dealer, will snap it up at my loss and make a whole lot of money on me. That has happened numerous times to me. I sold a nice, original 1935 Buick tour car at a reasonable price to a guy I thought was a collector. He was, in fact, a curb-stoner and he took it to a local auction and made $6,000 on me. A dealer bought it and made another $6,000 on him, selling the car into Spain. Why would that worry me? I hate to be scammed; yet I don't know what to do about it. It costs a lot of money to advertise a car over and over, dropping the price until you find the action.

[1937hd45]

I would think so, the days of the $15,000 Type 37 Bugatti project are gone forever, if they do return the world is going to be in very bad shape.

Isn't 9k for a 2 door sedan plenty? Also, declining prices really depends on the car. I've never seen so much money spent on Duesenbergs and very high end restorations in general.

[alsancle]

You can't price it at dealer retail because you are not a dealer. A dealer is in theory adding value to the transaction by taking trades, arranging transportation, providing financing or depending on the state having to stand behind the car. If a dealer buys your car and suddenly it's on the market for 25% more that markup is for covering value add or costs you don't have.

I guess the problem I see, and personally have, is that I don't know how to price my car. If I price it at a price that dealers are getting, I don't even get a phone call. If I price it too low, then somebody, most likely a dealer, will snap it up at my loss and make a whole lot of money on me. That has happened numerous times to me. I sold a nice, original 1935 Buick tour car at a reasonable price to a guy I thought was a collector. He was, in fact, a curb-stoner and he took it to a local auction and made $6,000 on me. A dealer bought it and made another $6,000 on him, selling the car into Spain. Why would that worry me? I hate to be scammed; yet I don't know what to do about it. It costs a lot of money to advertise a car over and over, dropping the price until you find the action.

[junkyardjeff]

How does a dealer add value,when buying from a dealer you are paying for his overhead which adds nothing to the value.

You can't price it at dealer retail because you are not a dealer. A dealer is in theory adding value to the transaction by taking trades, arranging transportation, providing financing or depending on the state having to stand behind the car. If a dealer buys your car and suddenly it's on the market for 25% more that markup is for covering value add or costs you don't have.

[alsancle]

There are 4 value adds alone in the post you quoted. A good dealer is providing a service which is why they usually get more than a private seller.

How does a dealer add value,when buying from a dealer you are paying for his overhead which adds nothing to the value.

[junkyardjeff]

I have only bought two vehicles from dealers and I never financed them from them,traded another in with them and they were without warranty plus they never arranged transportation for me so if I payed more it was for their overhead only and those two will be my only two from a dealer for a long time. For the cars I buy a dealer would not add any value to raise the price more then buying off a private owner

Edited April 1, 2012 by junkyardjeff
more words (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

Let's take for instance a car I know and like and never realized the owner would sell. The owner took it to an auction and got $10,000 more than it was worth. It was bought by a dealer, who has added another $8900 to it and has it for sale. There has been nothing done to this car since I saw it at the National Meets in 2009 in Minnesota and Kansas. Now, I have a car that is easily worth ABOUT $34,000 more than the first car; however, there is no way I can "trade it in" on the lesser valued car. Even if I accepted wholesale, perhaps $10,000 under retail, they wouldn't make the deal because it would cost them cash. Al Sancle, I don't know if you are a dealer -- dealers have their place. I just see nowhere where they guarantee anything, fix anything, etc. that makes they able to sell these cars for way, way more than the car would bring if Joe Public was selling the car; but they do. I think they just have the right gift of gab.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

No, I'm not a dealer. I also understand your frustration. They have to provide some value add or they would cease to exist but it may not be obvious. Do not under estimate the trade in piece as I know many dealers who live on this. From the buyers perspective there is a lot of convenience in being able to trade one or more cars towards another. Even if financially in the long run selling the first car and using the money towards the second may be better.

Also the easy access to the car is a value add. How many times do you see a private seller advertising "serious inquiries only". The dealer is usually happy to have all inquires.

Edited April 2, 2012 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

If I sell you my car for $XX,000. And I'm happy to sell it, (or it wouldn't have been for sale), then whatever you do with it is your business.

If you chop channel and streetrod it, I may not be happy, but it's your car.

If you re-sell it for $XX,000 plus $X,000, I'd probably wish I had found your buyer. But I didn't.

I try to keep in mind that old cars have been a great hobby and I'm sure glad I'm not in the car business. It's a hobby to us, they are not investment cars.

However occasionally I sell one and am happy to have the money. If I made a profit, I'm elated, but I also pitty the poor guys whose hobby is golf or bowling and feel bad for them not getting any return on their playing fees. Then pretty soon I see another old car that calls my name and I have to clean out a space in the barn and start playing with cars again, and the money I got from the sale is gone again. Then sometimes I see something I like better than something I have and it all happens again. What a great hobby!

I think I'm not alone here, because the Buy/Sell Forum always has more readers than this one.

[Dynaflash8]

Much of what you say is true Paul (Dobbin)...Paul because I know you. Most every car I ever sell is at a loss because I am so particular with my restorations....normally I'm not satisfied with somebody elses. That car I mentioned is all original, not normally my cup of tea, but it is such a neat car. Well anyway, yes, it's better than boating, fishing, golf, booze and chasing women. And it was my own fault that I fell for the guy's scheme and let him talk me down a bunch on my price. I have to admit I really hate to be financially beat, so I steer clear of dealers because I know they will beat me financially....I can sell parts, but not cars. Al, I like your convincing argument, but you haven't sold me.....dealers just have that special knack to smooze you into anything they want....hey, I guess they're lucky....it's quite a valuable talent to have.

[Dynaflash8]

Oh Paul, I forgot. Anybody who ever wants to buy a car from me had better never let it slip that they want to modify anything on my car, that the public can see, or put that ever-popular 350 Chevy engine into it because you can mark my words that there isn't money enough for him to buy the car. And boy do I mean that. But again, I thought that guy really wanted that old '35 Buick for his old car hobby collection.....so that wolf in sheeps clothing may once again knock on my door.

[Guest bofusmosby]

2 observations

1. We are collectors, and it is our job (passion)and hobby to restore them the best we can. Of course, some better then others, but this is what we do. We are either trained by someone, or are self-taught. All this didn't come about over night. It has taken us years to get to where we (some of us) are at now.

The dealers also have a job, that in most cases, has taken years to perfect. Their job is to sell their cars. They (many of them) have put in many years, studied the art of sales, have become know by those that might purchase collectors cars, and have leaned all the contacts to contact those who might be interested in buying a car they either have, or try to obtain.

It's all in the way you look at it

2. The prices of the average car has dropped, and will continue to do so, because the over-inflation has been removed. Also, If I am looking for an old car, I can only afford so much to either spend or finance. I will NEVER be looking for a 20K plus car to purchase, and because of our economy, the amount I am able to pay is far less than it was say 6 years ago.

On the high-end cars, those have either held their price, or changed very little because the people with the means to purchase these great cars for the most part, still have the funds. This economy has hurt the middle class more than any other income bracket. The rich get richer, while to poor get poorer. Someone who is looking for a car in the 50K price range usually isn't interested in a 15K car, especially if it is a common/average car. Therefore, if someone has one of the type of cars, they will have to lower their price if they expect to sell it.

Just my thoughts......

[Dynaflash8]

Good thoughts Jim if all of it held true. The problem is that dealers take a $15,000 car and inflate the price to $35,000. And they do have the contacts; often overseas. If you want to sell your car, taking it to a dealer is the way to go; if, you know a reliable, straight-forward dealer. I've used one who is several times, and one who wasn't once. I think my question remains. Why do so many hobbyists go to the dealer to buy a car? I still think it is the gift of gab that dealers (salesmen) know, learn or are gifted with naturally. They know what not to tell the buyer about the car, while most owners don't. In my case, I know the problem. I tell the guy every tiny defect of the car, scaring him off, because I don't want people saying any bad things about me. People keep telling me that I say too much. I've tended to use a dealer to sell my cars, because that's what he gives me; and for the same reason I have only bought a car from a dealer once; and I knew going in that the car was junk and it was $10,000 overpriced, I had to do a full restoration and would have way more in it than it was going to be worth. However, I had the money at the time and had wanted that type of car since I was ten years old. When I sell it, I'll lose a huge amount, but I knew that going in. That will be that much less that a nursing home can get from me I guess.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I just sold a moderately priced car (39 Packard 120 sedan, a #3 by realistic self-evaluation) for a price I was satisfied with through a dealer; oversees - so here are a couple quick thoughts on this part of the market and dealers as well. My understanding is the market trends right now seem to indicate the Europeans are willing and able to buy cars in this range, and absorb the shipping and related fees along with offering slightly better prices than the US market is reflecting.

The value add here for me was easy: 1) access to a serious buyer who did not waste my time, which at this point in my life is a huge; tire kickers weeded out already, etc. 2) all advertising cost absorbed by the dealer - web, multi media, etc., as well as his knowledge ot who might be interested in the car at any point in time. 3) all logistics relating to transportation, export, etc. were taken care of. I was paid in full prior to releasing the car or signing the bill of sale. The total transaction took 3 - 4 emails. I used Tom Laferriere, and this was like our 3rd time around with Tom - been a good experience all around. Admittedly I did ask a tad more than I would have selling myself, knowing that this would help cover the commission and that I could drop later if I had to.

Bottom line on dealers and brokers is that I think this is no different than any other service, in some cases it makes sense, other folks may prefer to do the groundwork, etc. themselves.

On the OP comments on this particular car, it seems like a pretty solid deal for both seller and buyer to me.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Dynaflash, on buying from a dealer, I think the value adds are simillar - convenience matters for some. Tom knows, for example what may interest me (like a nice MG T or closed Classic) next time around, and has a knack for keeping that stuff in his head. He has contacted me with leads from time to time, knowing that multiple "not right now, thanks" may one time be "when can I see it".

Also, these guys are not hobbyists - at least when it comes to putting food on the table, they are either asking prices dictated by clients on consignment cars, or what they feel the market will bear on their own merchandise. While I agree dealers in general may be priced a bit higher, two rules come into play here from my persepective: 1: most people will not overpay just to buy from a dealer, and 2: I am usually much more aggressive in offering a lower price with a dealer than a private seller, you know there is not the emotional tie and a dealer will never send you packing for doing exactly what they would do in a buying situation.

last - as a group they spend a lot on advertising, and give all of us a point of reference of some sort.

[Guest bkazmer]

as in any business, there are those who have earned a good reputation and those who are, well, the other kind. Ask around and you can get a feel for who's who.

[Dynaflash8]

To Steve Mack: Where is Tom Leferriere located? I sort of lost some interest in my 1941 Buick Roadmaster 71-C phaeton after the CCCA turned it down as a Full Classic. Of course I still think they are way out wrong on that decision, but nevertheless it's a fact. I got the pre-1940 Roadmasters declared Full Classic, so I won a battle while losing a war. In any case, I only trust one dealer here in Florida, because I was was shafted by one other one, and don't know any others. But my friend dealer doesn't advertise widely, and I don't think he is large enough or well known enough to find the same quality buyers as some in St. Louis and other places. He has sold two lower value cars for me that I didn't want to fool with. The problem with the '41 is that it is very valuable, a real good #2 car, I've got a whole lot in it, and I don't know what it is worth; except obviously not what my first asking price was. I agree that a good dealer can, if he is honest, give you great results selling a car. However, I still can't buy your argument that buying from a dealer can be a good thing. If they pay $28K for an $18K car and plan to make a profit, they are obviously doing something John Q. Public can't do; yet, they can do it, so I don't want to be on that end of the deal.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Earl,

Here is Tom's website:

Many Vintage, Classic and Antique Automobiles for sale Including Packard Super Eight and V12 Project Packards, Coupes, Stanley Steamer, Convertible Sedan, Jaguar Speedster, Brass Cars Era, CCCA Classics

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Earl, PM me if you are interested in feedback on Tom, won't take up the space here but will gladly share what I have experienced. He is RI based but frequents FL, I know his dad lives somewhere down there.

I get your point on exhorbinant prices, and there are cars I am aware of that have been for sale literally for years by both dealers and private sellers, I am sure we have all seen this - I think these are clearly overpriced...

[Dynaflash8]

Steve, Matt Hinson gave me the address and it's way up in Rhode Island. I don't want a car consigned that far from home. I'm just to conservative to do that; and it would also cost too much to get it there, but thanks anyway.

[Tom Laferriere]

Interesting conversation, especially when my name is mentioned. :-)

Just a quick note on consigning cars with me. I don't have to have the car with me, as its unnecessary. What I do need are good quality photographs and a honest detailed description. This is what will sell the car. I have a considerably large Worldwide Rolodex for Pre-War Automobiles.

Great conversation, keep it going!

Tom Laferriere

401.651.2295

[Dynaflash8]

To Steve Mack: I contacted Mr. Laferriere based on his reply on this link. I'm not sure I'm ready to sell my car, I'm just considering my options in this somewhat difficult world for retirees. I am wondering, should I have so much capital tied up in old cars at my age. It's a '41 Buick Roadmaster 4-door convertible. After writing my last post, I received an email from Mr. Laferriere. I was extremely impressed with the contents of his email. Thanks for the recommendation; I appreciate it very much.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)