Where have all the early Chevies gone?

[avantey]

I was reading the new HCC and the Chevrolet timeline in one article caught my eye. I did not know Chevy started making cars in 1912- I always thought the 1915 Grand Mail was their first. It seems Billy Durant built a respectable number of cars right out of the box in '12 (2000+) and about 10,000 by 1914 per the Standard Catalog. What happened to them?

In my thirty plus years in the hobby I have never seen a 1912-1914 Chevy. In a museum, a private collection, at a show or on a tour. Why are they so rare given their high production numbers(for the era)? There is a picture of Pinky Randall's 1914 in another article but I have never seen one in person. Examples of many other makes with lower numbers have survived much better. Any thoughts on this?

[Guest Oracle]

There is a 1913 Model C in the Reynolds-Alberta Museum which is the earliest known Chevy in Canada. It was I think used as a farm hack so survived.

There is a known 1916 Touring in Canada that is the earliest-known Canadian-built Chevy. There is also a 1918 FA known. The Toronto plant started building Chevrolets in August 1915 and then production swiyched to Oshawa by December...I wish a Toronto car still existed!

[Guest 36chev]

From my underdstanding, Loius Chevrolet (well-known race car driver of the time) wanted a quality, prestigious car to have his name. So the first "Classic six" Chevrolet of 1912-13 was a fairly big 6 cylinder T-head-engined car--first with compressed air starting and later electrics. But Durant had other ideas--wanting a cheaper car to challenge the Ford Model T. The story goes that Chevrolet (the man) became so angry when it became apparent the car that would bear his name would be an inexpensive vehicle (eventually the model 490 in 1915, the name at first chosen because $490 was the cost of the Model T at the time), stormed out of the company and got rid of his stock in the company. If had simply kept the stock, he would have been wealthy. Ironically, in the 1920's Loius, along with his brother Gaston, made the Frontenac head (and I think other aftermarket items...) for the Model T! And, as memory recalls, in the 1930's he eventually ended up being a mechanic for Chevrolet!

All of this is coming from memory, so if anything is amiss, please feel free to correct. As mentioned in another posting, Sixty years of Chevrolet, (1972) by George H. Dammann is an excellent source. Chevrolet: a history from 1911, (1986) by Beverly Rae Kimes and Robert C. Ackerson is another.

Here is a picture of a "Classic Six" Chevrolet on the How Stuff Works web site.

Edited October 28, 2011 by 36chev (see edit history)

[Steve Jelf- southern KS]

The Model T dominated the market of course, with half of all the cars in the world being Fords at one point, but as you point out, Chevrolet wasn't exactly chopped liver when it came to sales. The first car here on the farm was a 1916 Chevrolet touring bought used in 1919. But today a Chebby from the teens is a rare beast indeed, while there are still thousands of T's on the road. I can't prove it, but I believe the difference is not only in numbers originally produced, but also in quality of materials and design. I think Durant was willing to cut corners in order to compete with Ford on price. This isn't necessarily so of all GM cars. There were a lot more Chevrolets made (70,701 in 1916) than Cadillacs (18,004 in 1916), but I'll bet there are a lot more surviving Cadillacs than Chevrolets from the teens.

Here's a picture of my uncle Lester and his stepson Herman with the old Chebby.

[MCHinson]

A local AACA Chapter member had a 1917 Chevrolet 490 Touring Car. He also owns some Model A Fords and some Model T Fords. He bought the 490 before acquiring the Model Ts. After comparing the Model Ts to the 490, he decided to sell the 490. It was sold at the RM Auction at Hershey.

[avantey]

Thanks for the thoughts here. It sort of proves my point about the rarity of '12-14 Chevs. ORACLE pinpoints one in a museum, 36 CHEV has the history down but most of the conversation reverts to the 490 and later. I have heard of the quality and driveability issues with the 490- they didn't last well and were underpowered. Very little said about the 1915 Grand Mail either, maybe they are just as unusual to find.

But the rarity of the earlier cars is amazing to me!

[Guest marlin65]

Swigart museum has a 1913 "490" on display. I question the year because I don't think the bowtie emblem was used till 1914.I also wonder why Chevy's 100th anniversary is so low key,even the local dealers know nothing about it.

[avantey]

I thought the 490 was a 1916 model launch?

And that is an interesting point about the anniversary! No mention in news, dealers or any place other than within the old car hobby. Maybe GM doesn't want it celebrated?

[Guest 36chev]

I thought the 490 was a 1916 model launch?

And that is an interesting point about the anniversary! No mention in news, dealers or any place other than within the old car hobby. Maybe GM doesn't want it celebrated?

Yep, the 490 didn't exist in 1913. The model C "Classic Six", as well as I believe the Little and a smaller 6 (as in the one owned by Pinky Randall). The Royal Mail came into existence before the 490 as well.

[Guest]

I was reading the new HCC and the Chevrolet timeline in one article caught my eye. I did not know Chevy started making cars in 1912- I always thought the 1915 Grand Mail was their first. It seems Billy Durant built a respectable number of cars right out of the box in '12 (2000+) and about 10,000 by 1914 per the Standard Catalog. What happened to them?

In my thirty plus years in the hobby I have never seen a 1912-1914 Chevy. In a museum, a private collection, at a show or on a tour. Why are they so rare given their high production numbers(for the era)? There is a picture of Pinky Randall's 1914 in another article but I have never seen one in person. Examples of many other makes with lower numbers have survived much better. Any thoughts on this?

_________________________________________________________________

Bill, I received the magazine about a week ago and was surprised when reading the article about Don Williams and VCCA about how much emphasis the club dedicates to original. I like the fact that he said " We try not to be judgmental, but we do not welcome, I guess you'd say modified cars". Nice that Chevy people have a place to go. I wish that were true for other makes.

Don

[Rusty_OToole]

A while back I read a story about Louis Chevrolet and Billy Durant that said one of the reasons Chevrolet quit General Motors was an argument with Durant over cigarettes.

Chevrolet smoked hand rolled cigarettes and for some reason this got on Durant's nerves. He asked him to stop smoking, or switch to cigars, and even offered to pay for the cigars. He argued that it looked bad for a big business executive to smoke cheap cigarettes like a cowboy.

This did not go down well with Chevrolet. He always got mad and ended up shouting "I'm not your poodle! You bought my company, you did not buy me!" etc etc and storming out the door.

Mrs. Durant explained that it was not so much the cigarettes as the way he smoked them. Chevrolet would roll a cigarette, stick it in the corner of his mouth and smoke it down to the butt without taking it out of his mouth, like a French street corner tough.

This drove Durant crazy. He couldn't bear it. He would say something to Chevrolet, and Chevrolet would blow up. This happened again and again. Durant would come home shaking with rage and frustration after one of their arguments.

In the end Chevrolet sold his General Motors stock, quit the company and went off to start the Frontenac company to make speed equipment for Fords and other cars.

[1937hd45]

The Fronty-Ford speed equipment came a bit later the full Frontenac/Monroe INDY car production started after he left GM. The tiny Cornelian he built ran INDY in 1915, and today is in the Bill Smith Speedway Motors Collection in Lincoln, Nb.

[cutlasguy]

This is the earliest one I photographed! Not sure of the year but most of my other early Chevy pix are from 1926-1929!

[poci1957]

A while back I read a story about Louis Chevrolet and Billy Durant that said one of the reasons Chevrolet quit General Motors was an argument with Durant over cigarettes.

This drove Durant crazy. He couldn't bear it. He would say something to Chevrolet, and Chevrolet would blow up. This happened again and again. Durant would come home shaking with rage and frustration after one of their arguments.

That is how I have heard it too, good story Rusty!

[adam1982]

I believe there's only 2 of the Classic 6 left and 50 of the Series F models

Here's a 1914 Light Six, maybe the last one left

http://www.conceptcarz.com/z18634/Chevrolet-Series-L.aspx

Edited October 28, 2011 by adam1982 (see edit history)

[Seldenguy]

Bill, Within twenty miles of me there are two early Chevrolets a 1915 Baby Grand touring under restoration. Also a friend has a 1918 490 touring restored several years ago. But they do seem to be hardly ever showing up on the "road".I would bet the 1918 hasn't been out of the garage in 35 years. --Bob

[JustDave]

hello everyone

years ago i believe 69 or 70 i went to harrahs swapmeet in reno,there was a 1915 chevy

i believe it was called an amsbury special or amesbury special,it was an original car never restored but a real beauty,as i remember it was a little roadster very much like a royal mail roadster,it was on a trailer and for sale i believe it had a very high price like 3500 at that time ,while there we visited harrahs museum ,thats where i saw the devaux cabriolet and have been looking for one eversince, justdave

[nzcarnerd]

A while back I read a story about Louis Chevrolet and Billy Durant that said one of the reasons Chevrolet quit General Motors was an argument with Durant over cigarettes.

Chevrolet smoked hand rolled cigarettes and for some reason this got on Durant's nerves. He asked him to stop smoking, or switch to cigars, and even offered to pay for the cigars. He argued that it looked bad for a big business executive to smoke cheap cigarettes like a cowboy.

This did not go down well with Chevrolet. He always got mad and ended up shouting "I'm not your poodle! You bought my company, you did not buy me!" etc etc and storming out the door.

Mrs. Durant explained that it was not so much the cigarettes as the way he smoked them. Chevrolet would roll a cigarette, stick it in the corner of his mouth and smoke it down to the butt without taking it out of his mouth, like a French street corner tough.

This drove Durant crazy. He couldn't bear it. He would say something to Chevrolet, and Chevrolet would blow up. This happened again and again. Durant would come home shaking with rage and frustration after one of their arguments.

In the end Chevrolet sold his General Motors stock, quit the company and went off to start the Frontenac company to make speed equipment for Fords and other cars.

This was probably a reflection of their different backgrounds as well. Durant had a priveleged upbringing - although it was without his father - but did make his own way in business, and did very well at it. That said in later years I think he could be quite difficult to work with which explains why both Charles Nash and Walter Chrysler left GM. Durant wasn't a car guy - he was a stock trader. He spent most of his time in New York but still retained control over GM and if the his execs wanted to see him they took the train to New York and waited in the queue. Part of the reason he was thrown out in 1920 - the company had got too big and complex for him to manage on his own. His biography is well worth reading.

[nzcarnerd]

There is at least one pre-490 Chev here in NZ - but I can't remember if it is a Royal Mail or Baby Grand. Also several early 490s. Can't say I have heard of any F types though.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

In 2007, at the Brass in Bucks tour in SE Penna in May, there was a black 1916 Chevrolet Baby Grand from upstate NY, it was mostly original and had been in a museum for several decades.

And when I visited Opryland theme park in Nashville during my senior year of high school (25 years ago), they had an early (Pre- WW I ?), big Chevrolet touring car on display in the park. I want to say that it was a vee-radiatored "Classic", but just don't remember many details.

Perhaps someone reading this thread saw it too and remembers more details ?

AND lastly, within the last 10 years or so, there has been a green 1917-18 Chevy V-8 touring car at Macungie...

I think I have seen one 490 around these parts, a touring down in Swoyersville, PA in the early 1990's... it was struggling up one of the back streets, back-firing and missing something terrible, perhaps battling pot-metal distributor problems ?

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I was googling for images of the Chevrolet "Classic Six" Model C, and found this article about Chevy # 323 and the Centennial...

Oldest Running Chevy in the World Ready to Celebrate Chevrolet Centennial | Red Dirt Rodz

[Guest ken bogren]

There were quite a few pre-1920 Chevrolets at the VCCA event in Flint in July. They looked great on the show field at the Sloan. At least from 1912.

[Marty Roth]

Bill,

I'm surprised that nobody seems to have mentioned what I think is the single most important factor. Aside from there having been far, far fewer Chevrolets produced through the 1926 Model Year (Chevy outsold Ford for the 1st time in 1927 for various reasons), another reason for there being far fewer surviving Chevys, is that the Chevrolet was built in a manner comparable with more expensive automobiles.

Wood framing construction and finger joints were a more expensive and more time-consuming construction method, resulting in a more pleasing "feel" -- that solid "thuunnk" sound when a door shuts, an aura of finer build quality, especially when compared to what was often referred to as a "tinney" feel -- jokes about the Model-T's "the Tin you love to Touch".

The problem was that most of the cars, at least in the early years, were open cars, and were more subject to the ravages of weather, and of time, and of neglect. Used cars did not retain much resale value, especially since advances in motordom escalated at a rapid pace. The old used Chevy was put away in a leaky shed, barn, under a tarp, or just put out in the pasture / field / woods, and left to rot.

And rot, they did. The wood structure was exposed to water leaks, dank environments, termites, flesh-eating virus --- well maybe I got carried away here --- but rust spread to the sheet metal from the damp moisture-retaining wood -- chicken droppings, bat residue, etc.

Repairing and replacing wood framing was, and still is, talent-specific, labor intensive, expensive, time-consuming, and a real pain in the schedule. Just finding the qualified craftsperson who is willing to invest the time to understand the techniques is a major stepping-stone.

I'm a Chevy lover, and toured for 27-plus years in a 1927 Chevy Capitol-AA Roadster which I got from Trimacar. I certainly would never have swapped my Chevy for a Model-T. I drove circles around them on dozens and dozens of Gliddens, Nickel and Vintage Tours. Yes, there are some hopped-up hot-rodded "T" models which ran very well, and would keep up with my '27.

It just seems that the "T" was easier to bring back. That, combined with the sheer number of them that were produced, is why we see so many, and of course, now you can build brand-new "T" and "A" models from a brand-new parts shelf.

What is that punch line about the very rare classic?? Only 47 were produced and all 697 still survive.

[Guest Oracle]

From my notes:

The oldest known Chevrolet in Canada is a 1913 Classic Six, Car No. 93 with Sterling engine #186. It may well have been supplied new by a dealer in the west of Canada and is now in the Reynolds-Alberta Museum.

[Rusty_OToole]

Let's keep in mind that we are talking about vehicles now 100 years old or close to it, that were not made in large quantities. In a way it is surprising any survive at all.

[avantey]

Thanks all! I am glad I asked because I have learned some things I did not know.

Per Std Catalog the 1912 Chev had a production run of 2999, the '13 was 5958 and the '14 was 5509- give or take as I am not in the library (an unused upstairs bedroom) right now. Those were considerable production numbers for any car in those years and many makes with far lower production have surviving examples readily found. Many one -offs are existant in their hometowns museums.

That is what prompted my original question. Assuming all makes and models suffered thru a century,weather, scrap drives, etc. it just seems illogical that so few early Chevies made the cut when they had such high volumes. My guess is that they must have been either poorly made, not very reliable or unappealing enough that few have been preserved.

Anyways, I did learn more and that is a great thing. The longer I am in the hobby the more I find the history fascinating. And the forum users are amazing sources of knowledge!!

THANKS!-

[Guest Al Brass]

This is the earliest one I photographed! Not sure of the year but most of my other early Chevy pix are from 1926-1929!

The car photographed is a real bitsa and nothing I can see that is Chev is older than mid twenties.

Regards

Al

[Guest Al Brass]

There is at least one pre-490 Chev here in NZ - but I can't remember if it is a Royal Mail or Baby Grand. Also several early 490s. Can't say I have heard of any F types though.

There is a local Baby Grand that was put together in Dunedin, possibly coming from the Mosgiel area if I recall correctly. The owner of this Baby Grand also has a Royal Mail roadster but most of it was imported in more recent times. Parts for both turn up in NZ from time to time so they must have been here at one time.

Regards

Al

[avantey]

Al- For the first time in a while I spent some time on the '16 Hupp working on the rear spring assemblies. Felt good! I need to get my mojo back on that project! It will be a neat, unusual car when done.

[Guest Al Brass]

One other thing, the Classic Six was originally a Little I think and the Mason was the forerunner to Baby Grand/Royal Mail, was it not? Lets not forget the Chevrolet V8 of '16/'17 too, now that is an interesting car.

Regards

Al

[Guest Al Brass]

Al- For the first time in a while I spent some time on the '16 Hupp working on the rear spring assemblies. .

That will be a nice car when done. Spoke recently here with the owner of a '15 K, that will be an intersting car too. Keep going and good luck !!

Al

[Guest De Soto Frank]

I think the "Classic Six" Chevrolet model C of 1911 (prototype) to 1913 was Louis Chevrolet's original brainchild, and it sold for over $2,000 when new, which put it quite a way above the "entry-level" marque it would become as part of the GM family.

When Billy Durant wanted to put the Chevrolet name on the smaller, cheaper "Little" car

(which he did), Louis was quite put-out with Durant.

[avantey]

Actually Durant did not like the Classic Six as it had gotten too big and expensive under Louis. He pushed the Little out there to get cash flow in the same 1912 time period and was forced to release the Six.

He then retooled the Little in 1914 with the good points from the Six (like the three point engine mount) to make the Baby Grand and Royal Mail. The 490 had an engine designed by Mason from what I read after Durant got him away from Buick. Not sure when the Mason car fit in the timeline, Durant had him as an engine engineer because of the work he did for Buick when Durant was involved with GM the first time.

Al- What body style is the K you know of? The N and K were almost identical cars. The K had plated headlight drums where the N are painted, the K had cowl lights, the N did not. They shared a lot of chassis and engine parts according to the parts books I have.

[Guest Al Brass]

My guess is that they must have been either poorly made, not very reliable or unappealing enough that few have been preserved.

THANKS!-

My own opinion is that the problem was with the bodies, the wood rotted and it wasn't worth rebuilding. Mechanically, the running gear wasn't too bad at all, the OHV engine was smaller and more economical than many of its competitors but had similar power. In my opinion, the Ford T was better made, GM had to save somewhere to sell a car in smaller volume for the same price as Ford.

My two cents worth.

Al

[490touring]

A local AACA Chapter member had a 1917 Chevrolet 490 Touring Car. He also owns some Model A Fords and some Model T Fords. He bought the 490 before acquiring the Model Ts. After comparing the Model Ts to the 490, he decided to sell the 490. It was sold at the RM Auction at Hershey.

I'm the guy that bought that car (actually a 1919). After spending the last few days under a 490 and researching the heck out of it, I can comment on the car's "build quality".

The 490 was built to compete with the Model T. Henry Ford over engineered the T somewhat, and it developed a reputation as indestructible. The 490 was reasonably well built but not as rugged as the T. Two weak points were axle shafts and the distributor housing (pot metal). During the scrap metal drives fewer T's were scrapped because of the tremendous nostalgia factor folks had for the T, and the huge numbers that were made in the first place. Those numbers also contributed to the large the amount of NOS parts available for the T - not to mention the aftermarket parts.

The few 490 owners (maybe 300 cars out of 600,000 still exist) don't have that luxury. Most of the existing cars are in various stages of restoration, few are being parted out. There are virtually no aftermarket parts except gaskets, and no NOS parts. This situation has existed for probably 70 years, making the 490 a rare beast. I've gotten a lot of help from the owners on another forum, and that means a lot. Just finished adjusting the clutch (the grabbiness of the clutch was what snapped a lot of the axles). It's pretty smooth now, and after some cable adjustments I now have brakes. Still have some work to do on drivability but expect to have that done in a day or two. Then maybe I can get in a short "tour" before cold weather hits!

Edited October 31, 2011 by 490touring (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

490touring,

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. Congratulations on your purchase. I hope you are able to enjoy that tour and many more in the future. I purchased a group of excess parts from my friend. If you need a spare axle or some other parts, stop by and introduce yourself to me next year at Hershey in Space CG34 in the Chocolate Field.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

490 Touring,

Thank you for joining -in the discussion and sharing your information with us !

I had no idea the survival rate of the 490 was so low... 300 survivors out of 600,000 produced is a survival rate of 0.05%, if I've done my math correctly...

I had heard of the '29 & '30 Chevies tending to break rear axles, I had no idea that issue went back further... my grandad replaced several in his 1930 standard Coupe before Chevrolet came-otu with heavy duty "service replacement"...

Good luck with your 490 !

Regards,

De Soto Frank

[490touring]

490 Touring,

Thank you for joining -in the discussion and sharing your information with us !

I had no idea the survival rate of the 490 was so low... 300 survivors out of 600,000 produced is a survival rate of 0.05%, if I've done my math correctly...

I had heard of the '29 & '30 Chevies tending to break rear axles, I had no idea that issue went back further... my grandad replaced several in his 1930 standard Coupe before Chevrolet came-otu with heavy duty "service replacement"...

Good luck with your 490 !

Regards,

De Soto Frank

Frank,

That figure is nothing official, just based on an educated guess by a member of the 490 forum. But based on how few you see at car shows and in for sale ads, I think it's fairly accurate.

About to go out and test the newly adjusted brakes...might just take my camera along and post the results!

Fred

[Guest maudsley]

This past July, in Flint, MI, Chevrolet celebrated 100 Years. 1911-2011. I understand there are no examples of the 1911 left, but did the company not start in 1911? Did I miss something somewhere?

[Guest Al Brass]

Al- What body style is the K you know of? The N and K were almost identical cars. The K had plated headlight drums where the N are painted, the K had cowl lights, the N did not. They shared a lot of chassis and engine parts according to the parts books I have.

The car is a tourer. As I understand it, there are not too many parts that will interchange with the N. It is always a mystery why Hupp released a new model for 1915 and then again in 1916. However, I should point out that I have no first hand experience with a K or N, only hear-say and what I've read.

There is also only a couple of parts that will interchange between a K and a 32 so expensive time for Hupmobile.

Regards

Al