Guest 1949 Roadmaster Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Hi, I have a 49 Roadmaster with a dynaflow, 45,000 original miles. It has a howl upon accelaration and sound drops off when coasting. Doesn't sound like a rear wheel bearing, it doesn't change when cornering or inducing side loads. I'm not too familiar with the torque tubes, the sound seems to come from the rear end and travel up the tube to the midsection of the car. Anybody have an idea of whether ring & pinion or carrier bearings would cause this, or is there a u-joint where the driveshaft meets the dynaflow that could cause this? It does not seem to be in the trans, I used both D and L and it doesn't matter, sound still there.Thanks, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 How bad is it? My '53 has a bit of gear noise when gas is applied that goes away when coasting...did you check the gear oil? These things are famous for having transmission fluid leak through the torque tube, contaminating the gear oil. That's the first place I'd check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I vote for pinion bearing.............bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1949 Roadmaster Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Pinion bearing eh Bob? I believe my year has two races for the pinion bearings; is there any way to "adjust" them, or do they need to be replaced? I have the service manual and there are procedures in place, but I need real world advice. I suppose that means the whole rear has to come out of the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I'm not the one to give "real world" advise on changing the pinion bearings but I'm sure the rear needs to come out to do it. That's really not as ugly a job as you might think. Before I pulled the rear I'd check the rear bearings and the fluid level. It is possible you are leaking ATF into the rear. You can also pull the axles and carrier out with out removing the rear and check the pinion clearance for wear. I think they call out .0015 as max play.It doesn't take much to make a rear noisy. I put a rear in my 55 Olds that had very minor pitting on the faces of maybe 6 teeth on the ring gear. It was VERY noisy on acceleration. You might want to check that first also. Rears are a *****.............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1949 Roadmaster Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Well, did some work on the rear.......drained the fluid (didn't see any trans fluid leaking from the torque tube), re-filled and test drove. Howling on acceleration still there. It REALLY resonates around 50 mph. Quiet as a mouse when coasting. Ring and pinion teeth don't seem pitted. Would it be the gears, or the pinion bearing do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Buick Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 My advice is to take it to a shop with good reputation. Ring and pinion gears are hard to find and expensive. If on-the-car adjustment, or new pinion bearings are needed, do it now before the gears are beyond use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 How bad is it? My '53 has a bit of gear noise when gas is applied that goes away when coasting...did you check the gear oil? These things are famous for having transmission fluid leak through the torque tube, contaminating the gear oil. That's the first place I'd check.Hi,I read your note and having same problem on a 51 roadmaster, thought I saw red fluid under differential. I will check this out. Sure did not look like 90 wIf leaking what seal is thisThanksFelix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 It is your front torque tube seal. I guarantee it. Drill a 1/4" hole about three inches from the front of the pumpkin and there will be anywhere from a pint to a gallon of tranny fluid that drains out. The part is less than $15, but it takes me 4 hours to replace one in a 55 and it recently took me close to 7 hours on a 50 since there are more parts to remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Additionally, you'll want to make sure the prop shaft isn't scored. If so, you'll have to get it sleeved or it will continue to leak. On the other hand, if you drill the hole in the torque tube like Mike said, you can drain it regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 It is your front torque tube seal. I guarantee it. Drill a 1/4" hole about three inches from the front of the pumpkin and there will be anywhere from a pint to a gallon of tranny fluid that drains out. The part is less than $15, but it takes me 4 hours to replace one in a 55 and it recently took me close to 7 hours on a 50 since there are more parts to remove.Mike,Thanks for the info. I have a couple of questions. The hole to be drilled is the tube connecting the tranny to the pumkin. This needs to be sealed after ????.I planned on draining the pumkin and measuring fluid and refilling. I doubt the noise will go away as the damage to the bearings has been done ?????I imagine we will have to replace the front torque seal as you stated, but would like to repair the noise too. What are your thoughts on this.Will try to do the test this weekendThanksFelix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I drill a 1/4" hole then tap it and install a small bolt. The bolt I use is a round head with Allen head, so it kinda blends in.Doing only this is a stop-gap measure, but it will tell you how bad it is AND give you an inspection hole for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Pull the differential cover and inspect the gears. This may also reveal how much transmission fluid that got into the rear. You should not have any side movement of the ring gear or deflection of the pinion gear when prying ( this will show if definitely bad, but not necessarily that they are good ). Pull the axle shafts, check the bearings and if ok, repack with grease and replace the seals.After all that it may even be something obscure like the universal joint in the torque ball or even incorrect adjustment of the outer torque ball retainer.Mike will tell you not to ask me about noises since the last time mine had a noise I was sure(!) it was from the rear, specifically the LR axle bearing since that the last thing I serviced...turned out it was the RF wheel bearing. :eek:Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Pull the differential cover and inspect the gears. This may also reveal how much transmission fluid that got into the rear. You should not have any side movement of the ring gear or deflection of the pinion gear when prying ( this will show if definitely bad, but not necessarily that they are good ). Pull the axle shafts, check the bearings and if ok, repack with grease and replace the seals.After all that it may even be something obscure like the universal joint in the torque ball or even incorrect adjustment of the outer torque ball retainer.Mike will tell you not to ask me about noises since the last time mine had a noise I was sure(!) it was from the rear, specifically the LR axle bearing since that the last thing I serviced...turned out it was the RF wheel bearing. :eek:WillieOld Tank,Great info to start with much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Pull the differential cover and inspect the gears. This may also reveal how much transmission fluid that got into the rear. You should not have any side movement of the ring gear or deflection of the pinion gear when prying ( this will show if definitely bad, but not necessarily that they are good ). Pull the axle shafts, check the bearings and if ok, repack with grease and replace the seals.After all that it may even be something obscure like the universal joint in the torque ball or even incorrect adjustment of the outer torque ball retainer.Mike will tell you not to ask me about noises since the last time mine had a noise I was sure(!) it was from the rear, specifically the LR axle bearing since that the last thing I serviced...turned out it was the RF wheel bearing. :eek:Willie Is that like someone jacking up the l/r to change the r/f tire?? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Pull the differential cover? I'm confused.I would have the car raised with a jack under the pumpkin keeping the body weight on the springs and jack stands under the frame. Then let the rear end turn. Use the service brake to stop the wheels and check the rear wheel bearings. They will tramp pretty good with no load. Stop them and hold the opposite wheel and let them start slowly, under control.Don't get under the car unless its on a lift. A piece of 5 or 6 foot 3/8" threaded rod makes a good stethoscope and keeps you a safe distance. If the wheel bearing were OK, listen at other locations. I would lean toward the pinion because of the howl.These 60 year old cars have a lot of mass to the heavy castings in the rear end, transmission, engine block, and other parts. And sometime during that 50 years they probably sat unattended for a few years. All those inner cavities are vented. The moisture in air will condense in droplets over the years and left a lot of water pooled in the bottom; ever take a rearend or transmission apart from a junkyard and see the water pour out? Your car might have come out of long term storage and driven with water and old grease for lube.That's a bearing killer and often neglected at the excitement of getting the engine running.A couple of days ago I read about an engine "starting right up" after sitting in long term storage. Thinking about all those dry surfaces made me shiver like dragged fingernails across a blackboard. Lots of preparation work gets neglected on these stored cars and the damage happens fast or they break and get torn apart for restoration and never run again.Those whom don't have a bad bearing and haven't changed fluids yet have a chance to do it before they get in deep.My '60 had just a little squeak, squeak, at low speeds. I pulled the rear end and found no needle bearings in that U-joint inside the torque tube:That was a couple of years ago when an owner of a "57 or '58 couldn't remove his rear because the joint broke and twisted the tail shaft spline. Glad I didn't want to live with that squeak!It takes a lot to keep them bright wheels rolling.Bernie Edited April 30, 2014 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Willie's point was that if the pinion seal went bad, the trans fluid would have filled (overfilled) the differential.FWIW, I also vote for pinion bearing.......and front torque tube seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 (edited) I drill a 1/4" hole then tap it and install a small bolt. The bolt I use is a round head with Allen head, so it kinda blends in.Doing only this is a stop-gap measure, but it will tell you how bad it is AND give you an inspection hole for the future.As suspected 1 pint of tranny fluid drained out into rear of torque tube. I did not have tie to pull pumkin fill plug to see if over filled but suspect it is. Hope to pull out rear end housing and hoping rear wheel bearings and check u joint hope pinion bearings are good and replace torque tube seals. Where would you start from here Edited May 2, 2014 by Felix (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Think I would at this point just secure it very well up in the air and pull the whole rear end wheels and all straight backwards. Clean the frame and pan areas real good, paint and then put all my attention on the rear end. Out to the car you have access to the torque tube back. Take everything apart, clean and inspect, new seals and bearings throughout, paint components, springs, arm strong shocks then reinstall. All present and future problems eliminated.This reminds me of an apartment manager I once knew. When he first took the job he planned to only go to someones apartment if and only if they would call about a persistent problem Well it was an old building and he soon realized that most of his trips and there were many, were usually plumbing and faucet related. So after beating himself up over and over on plumbing issues, he decided he would blitz the entire building and all units in a one week campaign and change all the faucets and shut off valves in kitchen and bathrooms. Well upon doing so all the phone calls suddenly stop and he was never again bothered with reoccurring and persistent problem calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Well opened up pumkin after draining found all tranny fluid that looked like metal flake paint. Gears look ok. Painted with red grease and looks like good tooth contact.Can see evidence of white lead paint to check contact. I need some ??Also noticed blue permatex silcone where someone has removed the pumpkinManual saying to flush out with 10W motor oil. Will do 2 times and refill with fresh 90W also have some 600W from my Model A might mix a little,as my juicy metalflake oil has most likely wasted all bearings. Looking for a spare 51 Roadmaster rear not sure yet if 3.6 or 3.9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherwood3333 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 how do you drain the oil in the pumpkin? all I see is the fill plug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 how do you drain the oil in the pumpkin? all I see is the fill plugRemove the lower cover bolt(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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