Coachbuilt Ford??

[poci1957]

OK everybody, I have a little puzzle for us. Tomorrow in a nearby town is the auction of a small private car museum, some of questionable ancestry and condition. But this one drew my attention and I wanted to submit it to the group.

This is a mid 1930s Ford with what appears to be a V8-60, and is claimed to have been built for Edsel Ford, which I question. But it does appear to have an authentic 1930s coachbuilt body. But from whom?

The first photo shows a body tag of some type, "LB-4093." Mean anything to anybody? The doors and dual cowl all look just like I have seen on American Classics but scaled down to Ford size and I cannot think of an American Classic era car that would have a body that small that would have been transplanted. I am not going to buy this or anything but thought we all might take a look and see what we think. Todd

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I already mentioned this in a post to George Albright in which he was seeking info on a Model A dual cowl phaeton. It would be great if somebody knew the history. The steering wheel looks like 39 the hood looks like 37 as do the guages and radio, there are a few "a" looking parts; taillights and back bumper, possibly the fenders(altered).I would love to hear what happens.

[1937hd45]

IF it is in fact the original Edsel Ford Dual Cowl I hope whoever wins it restores it to its 1930 appearance. I always tought it was a good looking care ever since the early 1960's when i first saw photos of it. Sad to see that the original hood and other features are missing.

[alsancle]

Could somebody post a picture of the original dual cowl? I'm not sure about that wood - although it certainly could have been replaced at some point. Cars like this really require history.

[K8096]

LB would be LeBaron. That body tag looks just like ones on LeBaron built roadster and phaeton bodies on 1929 - 1933 Stutzes. Look at the wood on the floodboards. That looks like original wood to me, not something recently cobbled up. I'm surprised this car isn't being marketed more prominently.

[poci1957]

I thought LB might be for LeBaron but had not seen one for a while for comparison. Normally I would laugh off the Edsel Ford reference as auction hype except this body appears to be for real. My # 2 shot is the best of the dual cowl, but I inspected the cowl and doors and the fit is excellent, with no home made wood or phillips screws, just like a Full Classic in 3/4 scale. The front clip and fenders are not of the same quality and I do not know why Edsel (or anyone with the money to pay for a coachbuilt body) would use a V8-60 in a phaeton. As far as marketing, here is a link: Luke Lee Gaule & David Lee Gaule

1937hd45, can you tell me more about the Edsel dual cowl you reference and what it supposedly featured?

K8096, what do you think of this Lincoln at the same sale? No coachbuilder tag visible and in complete but aged condition and with an extra engine.

[1937hd45]

The RULES of this website prevent the posting of PHOTOS from other sites....................you tell me if that makes any sence??????????? Google Edsel Ford Model A, or LeBaron Model A and the photos will pop up. The back of the auction car differs from the original IMO.

[West Peterson]

There's nothing wrong with grabbing an historical photo and bringing it over here. Also, there's nothing wrong with providing a link.

Edited June 26, 2010 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Is this the same car as the yellow one above... with some major modifications?

[edinmass]

Ok. I'll add my two cents worth. I have owned and studied the LaBaron coachbuilding "school" of building style and body construction methods for over 20 years, as well as typical tags and body numbers. I have original reference material in my collection that also helps date particular build characteristics to certain years and whether it was Bridgeport Ct built or Detroit Mi built. It sure would be much better to view it in person, but I am quite sure It's LaBaron work. I will reserve judgment as to year and complete correctness until I see it in person. Interesting car. If somebody knows who ends up with it I would appreciate it if they can give me the new owners information. Ed

Edited June 26, 2010 by edinmass (see edit history)

[K8096]

The 1935 Lincoln looks like a nice original car with older repaint. It may be a factory body as there were a couple sedan bodies offered by Lincoln that were not customs, hence no coachbuilders tag. I'd say it's worth around 30K - 35K if it's in runing condition. Mid to late 1930's Lincoln K sedans are not big money cars.

[poci1957]

I will see what I can do edinmass, thanks for chiming in. The body looks like the real thing to me, the rest of the car is TBD. At first glance the car meant nothing to me and I walked past assuming an amateur street rod. When I heard the alleged Edsel Ford connection I went over (in disbelief) to look at it and was surprised to see the characteristics of the coachbuilding. Not surprised enough to believe it is Edsel's or even authentic overall, but that body looks real and is not cut down and the body tag grabbed my attention.

Thanks for the photo West, the rear of the car slopes differently, as a later 1930s model would, and it has the rear gas tank of a V8, but the doors look similar.

[alsancle]

LB would be LeBaron. That body tag looks just like ones on LeBaron built roadster and phaeton bodies on 1929 - 1933 Stutzes. Look at the wood on the floodboards. That looks like original wood to me, not something recently cobbled up. I'm surprised this car isn't being marketed more prominently.

I agree on the floorboards. I was looking at the door posts and the plywood between the seats. I'm always very skeptical as a general rule but I do respect Ed's opinion so it would REALLY be interesting to know more of the history.

[poci1957]

The 1935 Lincoln looks like a nice original car with older repaint. It may be a factory body as there were a couple sedan bodies offered by Lincoln that were not customs, hence no coachbuilders tag. I'd say it's worth around 30K - 35K if it's in runing condition. Mid to late 1930's Lincoln K sedans are not big money cars.

Yes, FYI this has a division window too, so I do not know if it would be considered a limousine or (I guess) a berline. My thought also is that it is probably production or a semi-custom at most. I am not buying this one either, although I would love to have it but I have too little money and too many other cars already. Someday though.... Todd

[alsancle]

Here are the pictures from the auction site.

[alsancle]

Approximately 1930 through 1937 Ford Phaeton Yellow in color This car was built between 1930 and 1937, Car has a parcel aluminum body, Dual cowls, It is believed to have been built for Edsel Ford, This car is only partially restored and still needs to be finished.

and a few more:

[West Peterson]

The 1935 Lincoln looks like a nice original car with older repaint. It may be a factory body as there were a couple sedan bodies offered by Lincoln that were not customs, hence no coachbuilders tag. I'd say it's worth around 30K - 35K if it's in runing condition. Mid to late 1930's Lincoln K sedans are not big money cars.

It's the 1935-36 Lincolns that really suffer on the market. While good cars, stylingwise the huge front end with the teeny-tiny headlights makes them look a bit funny. My thoughts on its value were about $10,000 lower than that, but I won't be surprised to hear it sells for what you say.

In regards to the Model A dual cowl phaeton, it's funny that there is no photo of the car in the Edsel Ford biography.

[edinmass]

If you do the math of a custom LaBaron body on a Ford stock or modified chassis, It makes no sense to spend the kind of money we are talking about to build this car without some type of Ford family or FMC relationship. The body lines are very fine, correct, and proportionate to the era. It's almost impossible even for a good "ally shop job" as Raymond H. Dietrich would say, to build a car to this quality. The more I look at the photos the more I think it's quite special.

Here is some text taken from coachbuilt.com on Ford and LaBaron. I hope it's ok to use it here......

For the first year, Roberts commuted between Detroit and New York, but eventually moved full time to Detroit. A new studio was set up on the 4th and 5th floors of Briggs' Mack Avenue plant, called the LeBaron Studios, manned by Roberts and his staff of hand-picked designers. Roberts continued to work on the LeBaron series customs but also did work for Briggs production body division from time to time. He’s credited with the design of the Briggs’-built 1928-29 Ford Model A Fordor Sedan bodies. Apparently a Lincoln LeBaron sedan attracted the eye of Henry Ford who showed it to Walter O. Briggs proclaiming "Walter, there's our new Fordor sedan". The car was in dealer's showrooms in a remarkable six months and is easily distinguishable from Murray-built 1928-1929 4-door Model A's by its resemblance to the redesigned 1930 Model A four doors. LeBaron is also credited with the designs of all of the Briggs-built open bodies for the Ford Model A.

Edited June 26, 2010 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Please go back to POST #9 and view the photo West posted...I would have clicked on it and pasted it to this reply but the website will NOT allow it, go figure. Anyway, is the photo the real Edsel car or the CLONE that was built some years ago?

[poci1957]

edinmass, given your research, does the body tag number tell you anything regarding the date of the job?

[poci1957]

Well, latest update is that the Ford did not sell and the Lincoln was $19,500 not including extra engine, a fair buy I would say. Results are in the auction website, click on the proxy bid prompt, I should find out more tomorrow.

[K8096]

What did the Ford bid up to?

[poci1957]

I do not know, am asking around and should find out more tomorrow at my region club meeting. Thanks everybody, keep any ideas coming in the meantime. Todd

[TG57Roadmaster]

From 1937HD45...

Please go back to POST #9 and view the photo West posted...I would have clicked on it

and pasted it to this reply but the website will NOT allow it, go figure. Anyway, is the photo of

the real Edsel car or the CLONE that was built some years ago?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Here's the attachment...

West, somehow this whole car doesn't seem right (IMHO); there's

none of the LeBaron attention to detail that one would expect,

even in a modest Model A. And why would a car from that vintage

have (what appear to be) sealed beam conversions,

mounted too high to boot?

TG

[K8096]

Those are not sealed beam conversions, those are expensive European headlights. Sealed beams didn't come out until 1940. The photo of the Model A was when it was new. The windshield frame looks like a scaled down version of ones I've seen on Duesenberg LeBaron phaetons (no chrome frame on top.) Those exterior door handles may have been used on other LeBaron cars as well.

[1937hd45]

Thank you TG! I'm fairly sure that photo is the CLONE, the original had larger louvers in the hood and those great Graber? headlights often seen on Hissos. The auction car has too many modifications to be an easy match to the Edsel car.

[Paul Dobbin]

My two cents worth as a Ford guy.

With Ford dropping the wooden body structure after the 1929 Model A Fordor,

why would they build something with that primative type construction in the mid or late 30's?

My guess is an early backyard custom like I built as a teenager using whatever I could get cheap. Can anybody identify any original any body parts on my 1961 custom car project?

Or is it one built for Mr. Ferrari?

Edited June 28, 2010 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Can't identify it but I like it, Paul!! Neat!

Ben

[poci1957]

OK everybody, the car did not sell after being bid to $27,000, so the widow still has it (or maybe has a private buyer) and obviously believes it worth more than that.

To West and 1937hd45, I doubt the auction car (body) is the same as the Model A in the photo, but there appear to be common items. The windshield mounting area looks very similar, and the cars seem to have the same cowl vents and places for other hardware. The dual cowl wrap around the front seat backs looks similar, but of course the rear body line is different, more like a 1935-37 car would have, and of course the chassis contained a V8 and rear gas tank. Maybe an updated version using the same body blueprints? Maybe a V8 Ford for the children of the wealthy family? After all, we know even Brewster was working with V8 Fords at this time.

Once again, I am also a skeptic of most old car hype, and I still cannot vouch for this car as a whole, but in my opinion that BODY is coachbuilt and certainly not homemade. I just wonder what it's story is. Todd

[Barry Wolk]

While everything from the cowl back certainly looks well done, there is something about the design and implementation of everything from the cowl forward just looks wrong to me.

[poci1957]

While everything from the cowl back certainly looks well done, there is something about the design and implementation of everything from the cowl forward just looks wrong to me.

Hi Barry, absolutely the case in person. My friends that were in attendance did not even look at it because that front end just screamed amateur hot rod. Finding that body surprised me more than anybody. Todd

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I wonder if George Albright saw the ad for this auction when he first asked for info on the Model A dual cowl phaeton as it was right before it went public.