Crash Transmission?

[Guest gwatkins]

The newly acquired '24 sedan I'm helping sort out has the (standard?) 3 sp tranny. When shifting, it's very tricky to get into gear without at least a slight grind, especially if downshifting from 3rd to 2nd. We never downshift into 1st unless at a complete stop. Is this normal for this tranny or is there a possible clutch problem?

TIA,

Gordon Watkins

[Phil 32DL6]

Are you double-clutching?

[Guest gwatkins]

No. Maybe that's my problem?

[Phil 32DL6]

I'd start with learning that lost art...then see if the problem persists. By the time my 1932 rolled off the line, DB had invented freewheeling and the vacuum-assisted automatic clutch, but I still drive her in "standard" and double clutch until she's fully warmed up.

Flushing and filling the trans with new oil of the right weight is good to do anyway if it hasn't been done already.

[Guest oldodgeboys]

I'm using 1500W gear oil from RSC. It helps with the gear crashing and it slows the leaks. Works well in the southern California climate.

Dont use 1st gear if you dont have to. I almost never use it in my lighter 25 roadster.

Pulling it out if 3rd while rolling will normally crash the gears...its a DB 'thing'.

And yes, it is a lost art that will take practice. Shift early and slow...way s-l-o-w.

[dwollam]

OldDodgeBoy is excatly right. Follow that advise and all should work well.

[Phil 32DL6]

I'm using 1500W gear oil from RSC.

I scoured RSC's latest on-line catalog and the heaviest weight gear lube I could find was a 600W made by Lubriplate (RSC #LUB008). What brand is your 1500W?

[Guest oldodgeboys]

Shell brand. RSC gets it in bulk and repackages it.

Page 15, at the bottom.

Its not as thick as the catalog states, unless the temp get low of course.

http://www.restorationstuff.com/RSC27.pdf

[Phil 32DL6]

Found it...thanks! My only concern with using that high a viscosity is how it would effect the action of the freewheeling unit which shares its lube with the transmission. What's specified is 110W gear lube. Right now I'm not driving in freewheeling so maybe that concern is moot.

Do you also use that 1500W in your differential? What's originally specified for my 32's differential is 160W gear lube (also spec'd for the steering gear).

Edited October 9, 2009 by Phil 32DL6 (see edit history)

[Guest oldodgeboys]

I'm still using 600W in the rear end. It still leaks a little, otherwise 600W seams to work fine. I think I'll stay with 600W for that.

[Phil 32DL6]

Fortunately, my rear end doesn't leak.

[Guest oldodgeboys]

Are you sure you have a DB??

[Phil 32DL6]

Are you sure you have a DB??

Well, it says "DB" all over the place...and it doesn't look like any DuesenBurg I've ever seen...

But, she's only got 47K on the odometer, so give her some more time.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Phil 32DL6 (see edit history)

[Guest DBAcadia]

There was an article in a recent past DB News that recommended never to use

the freewheeling feature as in many circumstances it can be dangerous. Anyone

else remember this warning?

[Phil 32DL6]

I haven't seen the warning but I can support that advice. I used to drive my first 32 DL6 back in the 1960s using freewheeling a lot and never had any problems or close calls. The hydraulic brakes on those seem over-sized as added protection. Plus the hand brake is a 10" band brake on the drive shaft that makes a very effective emergency brake.

I once had the thought I'd test out the brakes by tromping down on the pedal while doing around 30 MPH. At about 3/4 full pressure my butt lifted off the seat with my face headed towards a close-up view of the windshield!

These days, even if I had the choice (the freewheeling on my "new" DL6 isn't working properly) I'd stick with full manual operation. I can afford to waste a little gas on engine braking down hills. The accessory vacuum-assisted clutch unit works well, and I usually double-clutch to boot.

[fsnooks]

Reading the posts on this item and have 2 questions. I have a 26DB 4cyl.

1. I find 1st gear just gets you going. Someone mentioned not to use 1st gear. What exactly do you mean. Start in 2nd gear?

2. Same issue(grinding) for me going between gears and double clutching was mentioned. What is this?

tks,

fred

[nearchoclatetown]

I pull out in second gear, only use first on hills. When the car is JUST moving { maybe 5-10 MPH} I shift into high slowly. I don't double clutch. Double clutching is to push clutch in take car out of gear, then let out clutch, push clutch back in and put car in next gear, let out clutch.

[fsnooks]

nearchoclatetown,

This doesn't wear down the clutch plates? I'll try this as 1st gear is like starting of a 4WD in lowest gear.

thanks,

fred

[nearchoclatetown]

I don't doubt it does, but with putting on a few hundred miles a year how much wear does it get? Lugging the engine down probably isn't good either, but I don't want to hear the trans grind. I guess it's a trade off.

[Guest 1930]

Alot of vehicles maybe more trucks have a granny gear for first, common to start out in second beause of that. I would not worry to much about wearing anything, it worries me more to have the motor reach such a high RPM every time I take off because of that first low gear.

[JACK M]

As for clutch wear, you are not putting any load on the clutch with the release between gears. All you are doing is slowing the gears internaly so that they are a closer match to the speed of the car.

Guys that have alot of experience with gear speed dont even use the clutch between gears, only to stop and initially get moving.

[Guest oldodgeboys]

You don't get much clutch wear while starting out in 2nd gear either. The engine has enough torque to get going with almost no clutch feathering.

This is based on my experience with a lighter roadster, heavier cars may need more clutch feathering.

[Phil 32DL6]

My 3100 lb., 78 hp., 32 DL6 4-door sedan starts up just fine in second on relatively level ground with no more clutch slip than first. It's just a tad more sluggish is all, so I have to put up with a little more tailgating from impatient younger car drivers.

[Guest oldodgeboys]

Try driving with only 34 HP. Other drivers treat me like a speed-bump.

[fsnooks]

Tried using the 2nd gear from start and works just great. A little sluggish getting up to speed. I'm not getting any horns honking just mostly smiles, thumbs up and waves... love it. Thanks guys!!! Fred

[fsnooks]

Thanks for the Gear oil info in this stream. I was using 80W in Tranny and Diff. Both leaked a lot. Couldn't find 1500W and 600W anywhere here. Most guys never heard of it. I ordered from RSC. Hope that helps with leaking and crashing.

Thanks,

fred

[fsnooks]

Got the 1500W and the tranny works great. As soon as I started the engine there as a totally different sound. And I could shift in and out of all gears without any grinding at all. Amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rusty_OToole]

Synchromesh only came to market around 1928 and some cars several years later. All others had a "crash box" with no synchros.

In those days it took skill to handle the clutch and gearshift. This was one of the biggest bugbears in learning to drive.

The trick is to match the engine speed to the speed of the car. When shifting into a higher gear let the engine slow down to the speed it will be going after you shift. If you get real good you can actually shift without using the clutch.

Normally it's enough just to shift gears in a leisurely fashion without any special tricks. The engine will slow down to the right speed when you lift off the gas and the gears will mesh easily. After a while you develop a feel for how fast to shift, for the gears to go in smoothly.

When shifting down you have to rev the engine up to the speed it will be doing after you shift. Do this with the tranny in neutral and the clutch out.

In other words you release the clutch, shift into neutral, rev the engine, dab the clutch out and back in, shift into the lower gear.

It sounds confusing but if you know the trick it becomes second nature. Just remember you are trying to synchronise the engine speed and car speed.

[Guest oldodgeboys]

I'm not to sure things are so straight forward with the 'reverse pattern' DB crash boxes. My other 20's cars were easier to shift than my DB.

This is especially true with my unrestored '25 DB where the pilot bearing in the flywheel is worn...it tends to drag the clutch and trans shaft though its rotation making a clean shift tough.

Hey DB crash box drivers...are these boxes tougher to shift than other 20's cars, or is this just particular to my car??

[dwollam]

My Model A's shift better than the 4 cyl DB's but they are '29 and '31. My 29 DA is a bear to shift until it is really warmed up. Some of my 4cyl DB's shift better than others. You can't rush them or they will grind. I never downshift to 1st, rarely to 2nd but 3rd to 2nd is not too hard. My 4cyl DB's are '20 to '27. My '27 124 DB's are SAE shift patterns and shift pretty nice.

[Rusty_OToole]

I learned to shift a 13 speed crash box in a GM General diesel truck. Once you get the knack it becomes second nature.

Once I drove a Renault LeCar with a bum clutch for a year only using the clutch to start off. Once it was rolling I did all shifting without touching the clutch pedal.

Don't worry if you mess up once in a while. It's part of the learning curve. Those old gears are tough.

If you make a mistake don't force it, start over.

[Guest oldodgeboys]

Rusty_OToole- How does your DB crash box compare to your other examples?

[Phil 32DL6]

I learned to drive on a car that had the best of both worlds: a 1951 DeSoto wagon. (Like the picture, except olive green with real wood for the back cargo bed.)

There was a clutch, but then there was a low and a high range on the column shifter with two speeds in each. Those shifted automatically with an audible click when you lifted up on the gas slightly. You needed the clutch to get underway and for shifting between the ranges, if you chose to. It was very tricky to use all 4 speeds, but a fun (and harmless) game for a 16-year old!

[keiser31]

I learned to drive on a car that had the best of both worlds: a 1951 DeSoto wagon. (Like the picture, except olive green with real wood for the back cargo bed.)

There was a clutch, but then there was a low and a high range on the column shifter with two speeds in each. Those shifted automatically with an audible click when you lifted up on the gas slightly. You needed the clutch to get underway and for shifting between the ranges, if you chose to. It was very tricky to use all 4 speeds, but a fun (and harmless) game for a 16-year old!

Ahhhh....Chrysler's famous "tip toe shift".

[Rusty_OToole]

oldodgeboys - I have never driven a Dodge from the 20s. My comments were general in nature.

The point is that there is a technique to handling a crash box transmission, now generally forgotten.

The questioner really needs a lesson in person from someone experienced in cars of that era.

[keiser31]

I agree with "olddodgeboys". Shift very slow with a hesitation between gears and it should be easier and quieter.

[fsnooks]

When I went from 90W to 1500W in the tranny my whole shifting problem went away. Shifts easy now and the tranny is much quieter.

[gundog99]

You can do no better than follow "olddodgeboys" excellent advice . Shift as early as possible and very slow with a hesitation between gears.

[TonyAus]

I find a slow count to be the best. One - disengage clutch, two - shift to neutral, three - engage clutch, four - disengage clutch, shift to the next gear and engage clutch. The whole process should take a little over two seconds.

One second is the time it takes .you to say "one ten thousand".

I have yet to master the change down to second. Picking up the disengaged layshaft seems to be a matter of good luck rather than good management. However, the 600W equivalent oil I now use seems to have improved matters somewhat. It must give some momenutum to the otherwise idle layshaft. The standard procedure of revving the engine at point three of the forementioned process does appear to help a bit but not in the way it does in a conventional crash box or in changing from second to first (a generally pointless process in a Dodge unless you are towing a trailer up a vertical cliff face)!

[keiser31]

I find a slow count to be the best. One - disengage clutch, two - shift to neutral, three - engage clutch, four - disengage clutch, shift to the next gear and engage clutch. The whole process should take a little over two seconds.

One second is the time it takes .you to say "one ten thousand".

I have yet to master the change down to second. Picking up the disengaged layshaft seems to be a matter of good luck rather than good management. However, the 600W equivalent oil I now use seems to have improved matters somewhat. It must give some momenutum to the otherwise idle layshaft. The standard procedure of revving the engine at point three of the forementioned process does appear to help a bit but not in the way it does in a conventional crash box or in changing from second to first (a generally pointless process in a Dodge unless you are towing a trailer up a vertical cliff face)!

Rarely will you be able to downshift in these early Dodges without a noise.