Bill Stoneberg Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 My car has no power at all, it runs but it cant get out of its way.Engine has 10 miles on it since it was rebuilt 8 years ago.Timing and dwell are good but the valve adjustment is suspect.And in reality, I think it may be some of the lifters.The manual said to adjust the valves so no lash and then crank the ball adjusters down 2 more turns. If I do this, the car runs like heck. I have to crank 5 or 6 of them down another 5 to 6 turns of the ball adjuster to get it to run good. Then the car idles and runs but no power.I am wondering if some of the lifters may be bad ? They were new when I put them in and I wouldn't think just sitting would mess them up but.....Suggestions are welcome. Have not checked compression yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Bill,Several of your car's lifters sounded bad to me when I heard it running in Colorado Springs. Perhaps they are not pumped up with oil yet?Have you double-checked the timing?Pete PhillipsBCA #7338Sherman, Texas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Are those hydraulic or mechanical lifters? Your description sounds like mechanical lifters, but I thought all of the Dynaflow cars by 1950 had hydraulic lifters. If it is mechanical lifters, the engine is supposed to be good and warm when you adjust those.Forget my comment on the timing. I re-read your post and see that you have checked that.Pete Phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 They are hydraulic and I am not sure they are pumping up at all.That is what I am thinking because even after getting it good and hot, it makes valve noise. The description on how to adjust comes from the shop manual. Besides taking the lifters out, how can I tell if they are pumping up ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Hi Bill, When I had mine rebuilt, I installed new lifters because the old ones were just shot. I even disassembled them to clean them with no results. When I was breaking them in (30 minutes at 1500-2000)...they clattered like they had no oil for at least 10 minutes. It was a nervous time, but they eventually shut up one by one. Also, if they were new, it's possible that the machining oil inside has dried up over the 10 years it has been sitting. Maybe try some Rislone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Bill,I use a length of hose, like a stethoscope, while the engine is running, with valve cover off, to tell which pushrod is making noise and is therefore not pumped up.Pete Phillips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Also remember that the lifters on these things are not oiled with much pressure, so a little dirt, or like I said machine oil, could really make them sticky. I really recommend Rislone...it has quieted many slightly sticky lifters for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 The manual said to adjust the valves so no lash and then crank the ball adjusters down 2 more turns. This is apparently the procedure to adjust and preload pumped up lifters. What would be the procedure for new presumably collapsed lifters? If you did the above they would never pump up and the valve would be held open. Does the service manual advocate pre oiling and pumping up manually in a can of oil? I guess the only way to kinow for sure is to remove them for inspection.If they were previously adjusted and quiet and are now noisy, then more running with Rislone may help.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 On a straight 8, it shouldn't matter much if they are pumped up or not when you go to adjust them. You can watch for zero lash because the rocker won't even come into contact with the valve until zero lash, and it is very obvious. Then, you turn it down 2 turns. Once you start it, they self adjust and it should run OK from there. Another thing to watch for on a straight 8--if you adjust them down too far, all the oil from the rocker shaft will not go down the pushrod, but out of the ball screw, because adjusted too far down the oil port is exposed. I watched this happen when I adjusted them running...one too many turns down and oil came shooting out onto my hand! Which brings up another point...adjust em running...you can hear the bad ones then...it's a pain, but may be worth a shot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirate Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I hate to tell you this but it looks like the culpret is you and not the engine. The lifters when adjusted will make the engine run awfull before they will settle into themselves. That is what a hydraulic lifter is supposed to do. Try this.... Once you have all the lifters set at about zero clearance so there is no loud lifter noise and you know by sound what you are doing take the first valve and turn it down to the point where the engine runs rough enough to almost stall. Then wait, the lifter should adjust to where you put it and the engine will run again on all 8. If your not down 2 turns, turn it some more till you are, then go to the next lifter and do the same. ETC. You have to give the lifters plunger enough time to settle down on where you placed it. I hope this don't confuse you... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hey, Bill, Don"t keep us in suspence. Have you made any headway? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Yes, I pulled the valve cover off and its awfully dry up there. Some valves move good, some not so good. Charging he battery tonight to see if I am getting oil through the filter to the head. I imagine so or my filter would overflow but its the first step to pulling the rocker arm.Got it nice and hot and readjusted the valves again. Still ran poorly even after they should have pumped up.. I would thin that 15 - 20 minutes should be enough. Going to check oil tomorrow and keep playing but I still think I have at least 5 bad lifters from what I see.BTW on a couple I cold not turn them down enough to get the valves to move but just a small amount. These are the culprits I am considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Next update from a late night early morning session:I ran the car for an hour just to get things nice and hot. I am sure the neightbors were wondering but its about the only time its cool enough to do it.No luck, still the same so I let it cool while I caught a few hours of sleep.Pulled the side cover off this morning and none of my lifters have oil in them it seems like. I can push them down with my fingers. So I am considering what that means while I read the shop manual and eat some food. Caffeine only goes so far. BTW, there was plenty of oil in the galley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 So I went back through all my lifters, some I can push some I can.Sun is in my garages now, its getting hot and my wife wants to go to the local Buick meeting.So, any ideas are welcome, I will continue working on the car tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Did you clean out the oil passages in the rocker shaft and rocker arms and ball studs when this engine was rebuilt? Pushrods clear? If no oil is getting to the lifters, it's blocked up somewhere if oil is indeed getting to the shaft... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Brink Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Bill,Any chance your camshaft was turned down when the engine was rebuilt and your pushrods are just not long enough to fully open your valves? If the engine can't breath and exhale properly it won't run well at all. You should see plenty of oil (won't throw about excessively) flowing when running (valve cover off of course) with plenty of clatter if any are not getting oil.Re: pre pumping lifters. Don't remember this having to be done on '50's but did have to do on my '54 and did so by imersing in oil and manually pumping up and down with a push rod until all air was expelled. Having said that unless you have depressed the lifter seat so it is blocking the oil inlet they should fill up pretty quickly when running anyway - will just be loud because they were dry.Last thought - if the timing chain is off a tooth or so the engine could run smooth, timing would appear to be okay and run without any real power (did this once on an old MG - one tooth off and the car would not run over 2500 rpm). Might be worth dead timing and then seeing if the timing marks agree.Good luck (and stay cool if you can this time of the year) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Oil is getting to the shaft. I have pumped up all my lifers until they are good and hard. Going to look at the rocker shaft next. I know oil is etting to it as I took the lottle tube off and watched the fountain.Funny thing, none of my ball studs have holes as the book said it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Bill, that's your problem! Hydraulic lifter ball studs NEED oil passages to feed the lifters, because they're fed through the rocker shaft and pushrod and not the lifter itself...there is no oil gallery in the block to feed the hydraulic lifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 To add to my last post--is it possible you have a rocker shaft from a stick shift car that had solid lifters??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 And finally--if it turns out that you do need another shaft, I got a nice used one from Wheatbelt Buick very reasonably...it needed cleaning, but it had minimal wear. There, three posts in a row and I'm done for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Hmmm... I must of wondered about this at one point because, while I have not checked my parts boxes yet, I swear I have a set of ball studs with holes I bought at one point in time. Aaron, didn't I send you one ?So off on the search, I knew where they were until I moved 18 months ago, now its anyone guess. May be easier to call Wheatbelt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50jetback Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Bill, Could have sworn I saw a video of your motor running after its rebuild a few years ago?Hope it works out to be something simple.Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandy Dave Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 When all else fails, Look for something that is obviously simple. I have won many a mechanical battle with this pick it apart, and study it to death wisdom. Dandy Dave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I never got the ball stud, Bill...I figured you just forgot and it wasn't a big deal...looks like there's a ball stud floating around in the U.S. Mail universe somewhere!!! Just in case you don't find it and Wheatbelt doesn't have any used ones, you can get rebuilt ones at Kanter, but last I checked, they were almost 500 dollars!!!! Yikes!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I went through 1 set of boxes this morning, no luck but at least I got them over to the storage building which was also part of the plan. Now to the boxes that are more of a pain. The ones I went through were all car parts Riviera and Supers and marked nicely. The next set may have a little bit of everything and everything in them.Yes, Stuart you did see the car run and it does run now (or it did till I took it apart) but needs some help cause it doesn't run as well as it should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I found the ball studs I knew I had. Too bad 2 were missing. Anyone have 2 they would like to contribute to a cause ... Trades are considered.. I make my own beer . I also checked the rocker shaft with air and it seems like there is not clogs anyplace. Good thing.BTW, I found them in a box marked Fishing Lures.. go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Glad you found them, Bill. I am a little late to this party. Is this the 50 Woody? Did you rebuild the engine or someone else? Ten miles in eight years? Kind of high milage! Good luck Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Found some from Wheatbelt. Now to wait for the mail..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I hate waiting for car parts when you just want to get the thing running. Good luck and let us know how it all goes together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 The only time at the moment I have to work on it is Friday Night and early Saturday for the most part. Too hot when I come home from work. Today is the 58th day this year of over 100 degrees. So, I will wait as being bent over an engine compartment wih sweat dripping in your eyes is not my idea of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirate Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Bill... I am old and my memory isn't what it used to be but years ago I was working on a lot of engines some of them were Buick straight eights with hydrauic lifters. Am I to understand your working on the valve train and rockers to help get oil pressure to the lifters?If so I want to tell you that I never seen any engine that recieved the oil pressure to the lifters from the valve train, I have seen the opposite many times. Hollow push rods getting the oil from the lifters to feed the rockers and valve train. Lifter as I always saw them get the oil pressure thru the block casting next to the lifter. If the engine is running with no power but not skipping than your power problem is elsewhere. One person mentioned the timing chain being off a tooth. Engine will run smooth but it will sound retarded when the timing is on the marks. For the hell of it. push the distributor way past the marks in the advance direction ( rotate distributor in the direction opposite that the rotor moves) and see if the engine sounds a lot stronger it may be a sign that the valve timing is off on the chain. Also look at the rockers. Do they all move about the same amount up and down. A poor cam lobe will have a rocker hardly moving up and down. and make for weak engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Pirate, straight 8s have no hole in the lifter body or lifter bores for oiling. They are backwards from almost every other engine ever made. He has no power because the lifters are getting no oil and therefore aren't pumping up, so the valves aren't opening to anywhere near full lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Pirate, the pushrods are hollow on the straight 8's and let oil from the main oil gallery to the filter. It comes from the filter to the rocker arm shaft through a little tube. Look on the far right hand side of the engine. The 1941 Engine thread has a good picture in it. The rocker arm shaft is hollow with holes drilled. The rocker arms also have holes drilled that match up with the holes in the shaft as it pumps up and down. It goes to the ball stud which is also drilled to dump oil in the hollow push rod. It ascts as a resevoir to hold oil and pump up the lifters.I really dont see how a lifter could oil the valve train, gravity would work against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pirate Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I stand corrected. Quite a way to pump up the lifters. A lot of room for difficulties and you seem to be having them. Good luck with it Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 So I have been working on the car when work is not in the way...I took the old ball studs off and replaced them with the new ones.I am now into adjusting the valves. I have some lifters that dont seem like they are pumping up as the valves are not moving. I have gotten good at bending over the darn car.. Fat fenders and fat boys make for a sore back by the end of the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 It'll take a bit to get some of those lifters pumped up...I'd say 10 minutes at 1500-2000 RPMs...a nerve wracking time to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 So Aaron65 I took you advice and ran it like you said. Wierdness sets in, it ran fine for a while and then some of the valves stopped moving. I swear I have valves that stick. I have everything adjusted just like the book says and as opposed to last time have oil in the pushrods.Time to take Old Tanks advice and run some Marvel Mystery Oil through the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I'd say run Marvel through the gas and oil...I like Rislone in the oil myself, but I think both will work (hopefully!)...Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thriller Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Time to take Old Tanks advice and run some Marvel Mystery Oil through the system.You mean you haven't been? Tsk, tsk. I'm learning (slowly, but I'm stubborn) that folks like Willie have a lot of good, solid, sage advice to give, learned from experience. I know I need to do a better job of listening to folks like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Finally go all the valves adjusted and moving up and down... I cant believe it has been 4 weeks. Still have some clicking but it is sure a heck of a lot better.Now I have to figure out the ignition / carb as its still not running quite right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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