Of all the cars to turn into a hot rod....

[1935Packard]

I don't think I have ever seen a Packard Twelve turned into a hot rod. But here's one of a rodded '35 Coupe-Roadster that I found on flickr. I'm glad it's still on the road, and who knows what would have happened to it otherwise. But still, a Chrysler hemi in a Packard 12? Strange.

From the front

From the back

Engine

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Too subtle. Should be channeled and flamed.

1935, you no doubt thought about the possibility that somewhere out there may be a complete drivetrain, heck, probably everything mechanical you would ever need for spares. Wonder if it makes sense to try to find out more about where the builder/owner lives...

[mrpushbutton]

.............and the beat goes on my friends. I seem to recall last year someone saying "oh, it's only the junior cars, they wouldn't do that to a full (registered trademark) classic!"

Get your wills in order. If you think your kids will liquidate the car for cash soon after you are gone (I know of deals cooked at the funeral home), start thinking about that young guy you see every year at the big car show who shows obvious interest and love for Packards in their original form. We have to start making more young guys like him, there aren't enough museums around to take all the cars.

[Dave@Moon]

I had a couple former Packard 12s on the <span style="font-style: italic">Lost Souls</span> thread. It's a popular rod conversion, if you can get one. A lot of them are taken already, though.

Judging by the stance this car probably doesn't have the original undercarriage any more, and is likely built on a Dakota chassis or something similar. They did use part of the original wheels, however. I'd have hated to see those "Packard Twelve" centers go to waste.

The worst part is you know the guy who built this is out there right now trying to top it. Maybe there's a set of 22" billet wheels out there somewhere that'll go nicely with the Mormon Meteor or the Sunshine Special.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Least it's not a "tree-fitty" right?

[Guest superods]

Two things......

ONE>>>

I have purchased two cars from museums...so be careful in your choice of donations.

TWO>>>

The owners of the 35 are decendants of the Dodge brothers...only logical answer to the question you pose moon. If that is not as logical to you as it is to me, then maybe....just maybe.... therapy is in order

[mrpushbutton]

..........then why didn't they rod a Dodge?, that to me would be logical.

Gifting a museum can be structured with non-resale clauses and first-right-of-refusal conditions. The outright sale of donated assets is a tricky business for museums. They can sell assets that fall outside the collection goals.

[Restorer32]

Not that it makes much difference but this car likely started life as a coupe rather than a conv. Certainly not the original top iron assemble on it.

[K8096]

I have a friend with a 1938 Packard Twelve 1608 limousine with no divider window. A garage collasped on it many years ago. The roof of the car all caved in and water ran in it because the roof wasn't fixed right away. It is heavily rusted, the interior is completely shot, the hood has rust holes in the top of it. We can't open the hood yet because it's rusted shut. There is no way you could ever restore this car and even come remotely close to breaking even financially. All you can do it part it out, keep all the "goodies" and then sell the remaining carcus to a hot rodder.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that it makes much difference but this car likely started life as a coupe rather than a conv. Certainly not the original top iron assemble on it. </div></div>

And I don't think the the Seniors (12s and 8s) had chrome windshield frames, either.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K8096</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a friend with a 1938 Packard Twelve 1608 limousine with no divider window. A garage collasped on it many years ago. The roof of the car all caved in and water ran in it because the roof wasn't fixed right away. It is heavily rusted, the interior is completely shot, the hood has rust holes in the top of it. We can't open the hood yet because it's rusted shut. There is no way you could ever restore this car and even come remotely close to breaking even financially. All you can do it part it out, keep all the "goodies" and then sell the remaining carcus to a hot rodder. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Bull!</span> There are dozens Camaros alone that are brought back every year from far worse that this, and they're worth maybe 1/3 of this car. And no, it isn't because of parts availability, people bring '63 Lark Daytonas back from worse every year as well.

That's <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> whining either. People see what they want to see in these situations. Sometimes purists gripe about hulks left in the woods for 30 years being rodded, sometimes rodders gripe that it's <span style="font-style: italic">just too hard</span> to make an accurate passenger seat so the whole car has to go.

Besides, who the he!! ever said you supposed to "break even" restoring a car? Or building a rod either for that matter? This is the rationalizer's way of doing what they wanted to do in the first place without really weighing options.

<span style="font-style: italic">"If you're making money at this you're not doing it right."</span>--generally attributed to Jay Leno.

[K8096]

A 1938 - 1939 Packad Twleve 1608/1708 limousine in real nice shape is only worth 40 - 50K. I don't know if you've ever seen one - they're big ugly hogs! Even if you did a lot of the work yourself, you'd have 75K - 100K in doing a car like that. 25K in the engine, 15K in chrome, 10K in interior, Who knows how much body work & all new wood would be, wiring harness, rubber, tires, glass, gauges rebuilt, seats rebuilt, ect, ect, ect. You would be so buried in it you could go out and buy a done one for less than 1/2 of what it would cost to restore it. No one said this hobby is supposed to be profitable, but when the restoration costs of a car are twice what the finished car is worth you have to use some common sense. For a car like this to be properly restored you'd have to find someone with more money than brains to do it - and we all know those people do exist in our hobby!

[tbirdman]

Just a V12 engine rebuild approaches 30K while a high performance 500 CI Chebby is under 10K easily.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a V12 engine rebuild approaches 30K while a high performance 500 CI Chebby is under 10K easily. </div></div>

"<span style="font-style: italic">You get what you pay for.</span>" comes to mind.

[Guest ZondaC12]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a V12 engine rebuild approaches 30K while a high performance 500 CI Chebby is under 10K easily. </div></div>

"<span style="font-style: italic">You get what you pay for.</span>" comes to mind. </div></div>

HAHA quoting this for the truth within. I'd kill to have a packard v12 under the hood!

I thought it was a "cardinal rule" or something that if you wanted an affordable perfect old car that dragging one out of the muck and fixing it was NOT the way to go, buying one someone ELSE did that to was how to do it. Leno is definitely right on! I mean if you're doing it just trying to make a buck then you don't really care about the car itself...you care about oh right the MONEY. Im ALL for enterprise, I'm very thankful to be living in this country under this economic system, but some stuff has so much more value than that which it yields from hacking it up to sell for a profit.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Too bad they dropped the monthly caption contest from Antique Automobile: "Yep, those Duke boys bought it when they hit it big in the lottery. Fixed her right up and Boss Hogg sure is envious. NAPA is gettin' them a horn that sounds just like the General's.." This meant in good humor only to lighten up the thread. Any other possible captions?

Ya had to go opening Pandora's box again Mr. 35..

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a V12 engine rebuild approaches 30K while a high performance 500 CI Chebby is under 10K easily. </div></div>

There's one other thing I should've mentioned. Just how long will it be before that aftermarket, mismatched engine begins to appreciate in value? Will it at all? Ever?

Can you name any generic replacement engine (or any other part for that matter) that has real collector value akin to NOS/original equipment?

If the $30K engine is worth only $30K in 30 years (<span style="font-style: italic">probably a worst case scenario</span>), and the $10K engine is scrap metal (<span style="font-style: italic">a most likely scenario unless it comes with a Flex-Fuel badge, which might give it a few extra years but little real value</span>), who made the better investment?

[1935Packard]

<span style="font-style: italic">If the $30K engine is worth only $30K in 30 years (probably a worst case scenario), and the $10K engine is scrap metal (a most likely scenario unless it comes with a Flex-Fuel badge, which might give it a few extra years but little real value), who made the better investment?</span>

I suppose that depends on what you do with the other $20k you don't spend on your car's engine. Let's say you invest it at a 4 percent interest rate. In 30 years that $20k not spent on the V12 will turn into about $66,000.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So is the hot rod worth more than a restored v-12 in an open car? Which '35 is the car to have in 10, 15 or 25 years?

[Restorer32]

A Philistine is someone who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, too many people Don't realize that there is a big difference in Price and Value.

[alsancle]

I question the fact that this started as a 12 and not an 8. Looks to me like the hoods are too short but maybe not.

If it was a 12, it's a nice we to take a 250k car and turn it into a 75k car.

[1935Packard]

This does touch on a question often asked in classic car circles, though; is it better from an investment standpoint to buy (or in some cases, to restore) a more sought-after car or a less sought-after car, such as an open model vs. a closed model?

Let's say you want to buy and then pay for a restoration on a car, and you have a choice between a closed model and an open model. Let's say the price of the unrestored closed model is $25,000 and the unrestored open model is $75,000; that a restoration of either would cost $75,000; and that the value of a restored closed car is $50,000 and a restored open car is $125,000.

The common wisdom would be that you restore the open model. But that may not be right. In the closed model, you have invested $100,000 and have a car worth $50,000, and in the open model you have invested $150,000 and have a car worth $125,000. But if you assume that you started out with $150,000 in each case, them if you bough the closed car you would have invested the other $50,000, and you have a break-even point when the $50,000 investment grows by 50%. If you can grow the $50,000 to more than $75,000, the better investment is the closed model.

I guess the real lesson is an old favorite -- if you care about the investment, don't buy a car if you're going to then pay for its restoration.

[Guest 1926pack]

Can't argue with your math but I think its really a simple answer. If you're interested in investing and making money, antique cars is probably one of the worst areas to be in. Instead, you should buy an antique car because you enjoy it.

As for the chooch who rodded the Packard, I'm torn. Does he deserve an quick ugly death or a long, painful one? I know, I know. Its his car and he is free to do with it as he wants. True enough. But I am also free to voice my opinion.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I Vote for Slow and Painful!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Well I agree with Mr. 35's point, but one slight exception to the math. Even if you start with $150,000 - only what is invested in the car is what is invested in the car. Unless you can get the same level of enjoyment from the smaller investment.

That said, the very best ready to roll car is usually the best "investment" especially with the now very high (understandably so, but still high) cost of restoration.

BTW - I get it regarding "value" vs. price, but there is generally some corrolation in most longer term situations with a collectible. Let me rephrase - which one stands the test of time? Who will covet these cars down the road, the restorer/automotive historian or the rodder? What if the popular hot rods are 50s -60s cars then? Hmm...

[1935Packard]

Steve,

Maybe my perspective is quirky, but I think the key point is that there is usually an alternative use for the money you're not spending on a car. Given that, the true cost/benefit analysis should consider the alternative use of the money rather than to assume that the money would have just sat there and not done anything.

Anyway, I was thinking of these issues when perusing some copies of the Cadillac-LaSalle club's newsletter "the Self Starter" from the mid 1980s. In particular, I was looking through some of the classified ads at prices for old cars, and it seemed to me (based on comparisons of the asking prices then and now) that the value of the 1930s era classics hadn't even kept up with inflation over the last 20 years. And when you factor in how much money could have been made through investments of that money, well, I thought it was interesting.

In the end, though, I agree with 1926Pack; it's all about the enjoyment. You're paying to enjoy a hobby, lot looking to make a buck.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Agreed. In some ways many of the prewar cars are great buys now, especially when you consider relatively flat prices over the last 20-25 years and the inflation factor.

no other takers on a caption to the Hemi Packard??

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

no other takers on a caption to the Hemi Packard?? </div></div>

How about "Ask the man who raped one".....?

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed. In some ways many of the prewar cars are great buys now, especially when you consider relatively flat prices over the last 20-25 years and the inflation factor.

no other takers on a caption to the Hemi Packard?? </div></div>

I thing the closed models are a great buy as they have not kept up with the price surge of the open models.

Here's a 1934 Victoria Super Eight offered at $425K. Seems just a little over priced but the seller is probably looking at the 33 Super 8 Victoria that sold for $414K in March.

I believe this is the same 34 that is for sale for $425K. car.

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Here's a 1934 Victoria Super Eight offered at $425K. </div></div>

Only $425K? What an opportunity for a Rodder..take out that old outdated lump under the hood and drop in a "mayo on white bread" Chebby 350/TH, Camaro front clip, Ford 9" rear, GM tilt wheel, roll & tuck candy stripe interior and ya got urself a REAL car...

[Guest ZondaC12]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

no other takers on a caption to the Hemi Packard?? </div></div>

After timidly responding 'No' when shouted at by a fellow motorist "HEY DAT THING GOT A HEMI!!!?", he knew there was only one way to ensure such an embarassment would not happen again...

[Guest superods]

I could not help myself here. I am in agreement with most posting on this topic. The mistake the man made in putting that puny hemi in his Packard 12 convertible is unforgiveable. A 12 cylinder automoblile compartment needs far mor motor than he gave it. Lingenfelder has a V-10 viper that should have been his motor of choice. It has the size and the power to raise a few eye brows in the parade. Hell... if he is going to raise the dander of the far left...or is it the far right... he may as well have gone the route.....725 horses for under 40k. Then the caption would read........

put a viper in your piper and you will smoke em !!!

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed. In some ways many of the prewar cars are great buys now, especially when you consider relatively flat prices over the last 20-25 years and the inflation factor.

I thing the closed models are a great buy as they have not kept up with the price surge of the open models.

Here's a 1934 Victoria Super Eight offered at $425K. Seems just a little over priced but the seller is probably looking at the 33 Super 8 Victoria that sold for $414K in March.

I believe this is the same 34 that is for sale for $425K. car. </div></div>

I often wonder if novices with big money are missing the subtle differences between models, paying way more for a car with a description that sounds the same as a big-dollar car. For instance, maybe he'll pay Super Eight price for an Eight, not knowing how big of a difference that makes in its desirability. Or, maybe paying 1934 prices for a 1935 (no disrespect intended, 35Packard)... or 1937 prices for a 1938.

[Tom M]

I am sure glad I didn't have the up front cost of buying my car If it weren't for my father buying the car from my great uncle I probably wouldn't have own a Packard. I would have a 69-70 GTO (Judge) or street rod in the garage instead.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

some funny captions guys, including Mr. Superrods who in addition to having some impressive cars is also a good sport. I thought of his post walking by a neighbor's house tonight, he has a very yellow Viper in the garage that is rarely driven, we think he only has it for parades. Go figure..

[Guest superods]

Steve...If one cannot laugh at one's self then permission should not be granted to laugh at anyone else. Life is way too short. We must all enjoy it in the way we feel best regardless of other's opinions. Eveyone is entitled..this is America. BTW...I detest Vipers...I always have a new Corvette in the garage...biggest bang for the buck.

[Studemax]

Packard8 is right - it could have been worse, they might have put a Chevey under the hood.

I like modded cars, too - but I wouldn't have done it that way.

[72caddy]

Just the messenger. If I could save them I would. These two Packards will become rods very shortly. Both have completely restored running gear that will be stripped out. The red body goes on the frame shown. The second car is just temporarily holding the front hood of the red car.

Forget about the first image...I got the wrong file...

[72caddy]

I'll try again...