Peter J.Heizmann

bferg...Welcome to the AACA Forum. This subject came up and was discussed extensively around Dec. 2002. Two items that may help. 1-Below, I have pasted my Bolt Strength study results from 12/18/02 and Ron Barnett's (Ronbarn) response dated 12/19/02 directly related to your question. 2-If you want to see a miriad of past discussions concerning bolts on this Forum: -click "Search" in the header of this page. -Forum's to Search: "Tech Questions" on the left. -Keyword: Bolts, In Subject & Body -User Search: Leave blank -Date Range: "Newer than 4 years, older than 1 week. -click on "Submit" Hope this helps, Peter J. - ------------------------------------------------ 12/18/02 This is going to be a "long" one folks. I will start, with due respect, to George Rohrbach, who, made the initial post/query. In decending order, I post direct/simple opinions of "old" bolts vs. "modern" manufacture. Afterwards, the technical findings of the study, again, in decending order. George: --Go with Grade 8, or, other Tempered bolts and Nuts for replacement on steering, tie rods, etc. applications. Your sample of a 1920-30's era bolt failed convincingly compared to Grade 8 and the jh Tempered Bolt. As Bill Stoneberg posted, Grade 8, or, other good Tempered Bolt. --85,000 p.s.i. is normally for internal pressures for pressure vessels. Brinnell Hardness, or, a Rockwell Scale reading is the question: Again, replace with a high Grade/Tempered bolt. --Bolt Head Dimensions: (Did not use a Stainless bolt, as I personally would not use them for steering applications) Tempered Bolt: .532 Grade-8 Bolt: .534 George's Bolt: .539 --Brinnell Hardness of the Tempered jh Bolt tested was first: 327.5-344.5 Brinnell Hardness of the Grade-8 Bolt tested was second: 293.5-310.5 Brinnell Hardness of the 1920-30's Bolt tested as third: 258.0-271.0 --Torqued Shear Points of the 3: Tempered jh Bolt: Withstood 200 ft. lbs. Grade-8 Bolt: Withstood 200 ft. lbs. George's Bolt: Sheared at 147 ft. lbs. (These bolts were all bolted down into tool steel with the heads flush to the surface.) --JB-ed posted: "the Head Size was reduced about the same time bolts were "Graded" and would it have any affect on strenth?" in so many words: Not in my opinion. The measurements of George's bolt head (.539)to the lowest measurement, the Tempered Bolt (.532) is miniscule, although, we are not creating a Space Shuttle here. We are looking at a difference of .007. The millage of the coatings could be just the difference. --De Soto Frank posted: "...TRW joints included grade-8 hardened bolts in lieu of rivets". THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING WHEN REPLACING bolts ON SUCH A SAFETY ITEM. The study I found sure backs it up, folks. --Now, the chemistery findings: (NOTE: Copper I found to be "Residual", meaning, it was present in either re-cycled metal, and, passed along to the bolt when it was produced. Moly (Molybdenum, Mo) The Grade-8 Bolt appears to have been intentionally inoculated with Mo with a reading of .20. The Tempered Bolt had .02 and George's Bolt had .00, so, they read as residual. THIS BACKS UP BILL'S AND FRANK'S INPUT, THAT, ONE SHOULD USE A HIGH GRADE. 8 IN THEIR EXPERIENCES. Here we go: Grade 8/ Tempered/ George's Sample Carbon © .39 .40 .35 Silicon (Si) .21 .23 .16 (Look out, folks!!) Phospherous (P) .008 .012 .007 (Low) Sulphur (S) .012 .011 .024 (Air Quality back then??) Manganese (Mn) .73 .69 .64 Nickel (Ni) .02 .02 .01 (Low) Chrome (Cr) .99 .10 .09 Copper (Cu) .01 .01 .05 (ALL 3 RESIDUAL) Molybdenum (Mo) .20 Intential .02 Residual .00 (Non-existent) Magnesium (Mg) .00 .00 .00 --Bottom line, go with Bill Stoneberg and Frank's advise...Grade-8 for replacement. --This is one of those posts you hate to "hit send" in the sense that the "Legal Beagles" could rear their heads, however, the study was done on ISO Certified Spectrometers, and, Gauges, all of which, have been Certified within 4 days. IT WAS PERFORMED TO HELP STEER HOBBYIST'S IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION CONCERNING SAFETY ITEMS. "Sorry that the line items are not in columns...been a long day." Regards, Peter J. -------------------- Peter J. Heizmann 1972 Triumph TR-6 ___________________________________________ 12/19/02 Peter - very good explanation and interesting test results. I agree with conclusions. After a review of this thread for comments about "dressing" the head of the bolt. If the car is going to be shown in AACA the judges will certainly take deductions for dress mark Bolts on the '20s and '30s vehicles. However it is an easy process to file or grind the marks off the head. Use modern Bolts and dress the heads! -------------------- ronbarn

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This may be an extremely local, forgotten phrase: "Puff the engine". It was my late Grandfather's terminology for "Revving the engine". I have not heard it since his passing, nor, from anyone else when he was with us. Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Miken...Welcome to the Forum. Your best bet is at the top of the header page: "Resources" - "AACA Library and Research Center". Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Meowy84...I echo Bob-Welcome to the Forum. Please check out the AACA Library services. They retain the finest collection of old vehicle research material in existence. (Within the header at the top, click on "Resources", "AACA Library". You can obtain copies from original material. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(Sorry to digress, folks) This is the only way I can make contact with Joe as he has no e-mail in his profile... Joe...click on the "flashing little envelope" at the top of your screen. It is a PM from me. Peter J.

This news is tough to handle, really tough. My opinion of John was the epitomy of a "gentleman". He always respected to the utmost anyone's conversation topic. He would listen with sincerity. As Rick did, I met John through our website. Three years ago, John approached me at Philly to recreate (cast) a broken comutator housing for one of his Packards. Did it and delivered it to his home. That's fine, well, and, good. Then he showed me his 2 garages full of Packards in various stages of restoratation. He showed me with pride, each car, what the goals were, where each stood in the restoration process. All I can add is what an interesting person dedicated to people first, then, sharing his knowledge with all of us. For those, of whom, would benefit from John's contributions "just on this Website"... --Click on the Search icon above. --Keyword Search Terms..."In subject only". --User name: "John N. Packard" --Date Range: Newer than "5 years" Older than "1 day" Hit "Submit" His posts will say a lot of what John was all about. Peter J.

Hi, Tom... The AACA Library & Research Center retains thousands of categorized research material. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Well worth your while to see what has been collected, donated, catalogued, and, professionally maintained by the AACA's full-time librarian and staff. (Click on "Resources" at the top of this page and then "AACA Library".) Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for registering, Hornwrecker. Good-to-Go! Very interesting website. Great photos. Moved thread to the General Forum as it fits well. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hornwrecker...Welcome to the AACA Forum! Interesting project. Must remind you to "Register" with a "handle of choice" and "User Profile". (This info is required.) Signatures with "Anonymous" are not acceptable. If you are having trouble "logging-in" and "registering", by all means, please let us know. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kim...Welcome to the AACA Forum. There are quite a few good responses on this thread. May I suggest you click on "Resources" - "AACA Library" at the top of the page. The AACA Library and Research Center retains a wealth of information. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Judy... I double clicked on it and the main page link...no problem with either. Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

plumbob...Welcome to the AACA Forum. Just a thought...why not donate them to the AACA Library & Research Center in your father's name. Future hobbyist could benefit from the historical content in restoration, or, research. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> AACA Library & Research Center ATTN: Kim Miller P.O. Box 417 Hershey, PA 17033 Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jon... You are not spoiling a thing from what I have read within this thread. As others have posted, there is a mind-boggling number of car clubs, not to mention a huge amount of "marque clubs". Did a quick Google search: "Car Clubs USA. It returned no less than 4,050,000 clubs, and, or, hits, of an extremely wide range of makes, or, interests". The search was just the USA. There is also a huge hobby in other countries. Again, as others have posted, clubs have such a wide range of judging criteria, that, I cannot fathom anyone has the time to bring, i.e.--4,050,000 clubs under one umbrella of judging such as the AKC. Now, you are asking the question on the AACA Forum. Please read our mission statement, on-line judging rules. That is what we go by here and I hope it assists you with your question as it applies to the AACA Forum members, of whom, posted a response. As for fire extinguishers, well, I would not think twice about driving any vehicle without one...never know when it could be your "other best friend"...!!! From my experience, should an extinguisher not be fully charged, well, may as well not have one. I see the importance of having one anywhere. In this case, I have imagined such a wide variety of cars at any show, parked next to eachother. Who is to say when your neighbor's car may short out and torch your vehicle, plus, who knows how many others. Would be a disaster scenario at best, but, at least you retain a front-line defense by having an extinguisher at hand. Keeping a fully charged extinguisher in my family's daily drivers and one in my used car (1972 TR6) is absolutely mandatory. (I believe that is the AACA's reason, and, a damn good one at that!) As for correct tire valve caps, valve covers, or, any other part: The sole purpose of the AACA is the preservation of vehicles, 25 years and older, as they left the factory. As for politics, well, if you put more than one person in a meeting, it is inevitable. Believe me, I know as I wind down a 1.75 year volunteer Councilman appointment here in Mt. Penn, PA. Regards and keep posting, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

John and Cindy...WOW!! Way to go. The award is absolutely well deserved based upon all the hard work, participation, and, support of the club's functions over the years. My humble opinion... Congratulations!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hello, Mr. HtH... I'll spring for another $50. In snail-mail tomorrow. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Likewise, very Merry Christmas to you. I live about 14 miles from Fleetwood and have driven past the building for years. Coincidentally, the Garden State Tanning Co., last owner, produced leather for today's automobile seating. As is the norm, they closed and the work went to Mexico. The Fleetwood Metal Body Building had the name painted on the brick, and, one could easily see it, although somewhat faded. The Fleetwood Website offers a great, concise history of the custom body production. Best regards, folks... Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hello, folks... I posted this within the AACA General Forum and wanted to share this sad news within our mutual hobby. Channel 69 News here in PA, reported that the defunct Garden State Tanning Building, Fleetwood, PA, burned today. They reported a good 1/2+ of the building was gutted. It was so severe that the town's water supply was heavily depleted and resident's either do not have water service, or, are asked to conserve. This building housed part of the Fleetwood Body Works complex, (namesake of the Cadillac Fleetwood). Made custom coach bodies for celebrities, Rudy Valentino was one of note, and, the well to-do. Do yourself a favor and visit www.fleetwoodpa.org for their historical society's excellent website. Scroll down on the left column to the Fleetwood Metal Body Company icon. Regards to all, Peter J. -------------------- Peter J. Heizmann 1972 Triumph TR-6 <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi, folks... Channel 69 News here in PA, reported that the defunct Garden State Tanning Building, Fleetwood, PA, burned today. They reported a good 1/2+ of the building was gutted. It was so severe that the town's water supply was heavily depleted and resident's either do not have water service, or, are asked to conserve. This building housed part of the Fleetwood Body Works complex, (namesake of the Cadillac Fleetwood). Made custom coach bodies for celebrities, Rudy Valentino was one of note, and, the well to-do. Do yourself a favor and visit www.fleetwoodpa.org for their historical society's excellent website. Scroll down on the left column to the Fleetwood Metal Body Company icon. Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

John...Welcome to the AACA Forum! Had a similar request of Car Collector Magazine two years ago. Checked out there mailing address and phone numbers to obtain a duplicate, of which, were readily available. Within days, I had a duplicat copy of their October 2003 issue. You may want to try this direct approach to the source. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Brad. Been awhile. Hope all is well. The AACA Library & Research Center offers a variety of automotive books for sale, plus, the AACA Headquarters. Click on the "Library" icon on the main page, or, contact our librarian, Kim Miller kmiller@aacalibrary.org The AACA National Headquarters, also, offers some great automotive books for sale. Library and Research Center: 717/534-2082 AACA National Headquarters: 717/534-1710 Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now there are 5. (Sending today). Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ha! checkmate... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is great news, Karl... Keep "jacking" up the autograph price...I have 3 of your "original" autographs in my customer order files, that, will contribute to my retirement fund. Thanks in advance, Peter J.

RoJo22 posted: I believe the car is from Florida, and I am in Georgia. I will see what the going rate is for it. I think the ebay thing might be the answer for this one.... (Sorry for the incovenience. I had to delete an Anonymous poster's reply that was above this post.) Reminder: All signatures with Anonymous will be deleted. Must register and logue-in to make posts. Peter J.

Hi, Dave... Forgot what year your TR6 is? Started going through extra parts today and there is a lot more than screws that need a home (non-gratis). This stuff has been sitting here for years and need a home. I have off for 5 days beginning Thursday and will have time to stage/list items. Regards, Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />