Scooter Guy

I read the article. It seems to me that the whole point was that high auction prices have raised the general level of awareness for the potential value of collector cars and as a result more and more vehicles are being stored and/or preserved in some sort of future attempt to ride that wave and cash in for the benefit of the "every man" type. I'm sure that one could probably cite examples of that, but I'm not sure it's as widespread as the article implies. It seems to me that it's just another way to spin the fact that high auction prices DO have a trickle down effect, but the part they don't really touch on is that the virtue of the very argument made in the article means higher prices for the "lesser" stuff the article is touching on. The TV effect is similar...televised auctions and shows like American Pickers drive up awareness (and thus prices) on the stuff we're after all the time though it would be hard to quantify just how much and how significant that really is.

I wonder if anyone over at the Barber Museum would know anything about the Premocar, as they are in Birmingham??? Worth a shot!

Maybe this one is legit (and let's hope it is), but these kinds of things end up on automotive & motorcycle message boards all the time and some of them are scams to get folks to donate parts, tools, or even cash. This has all the makings of that: 1. A "kid" that claims to know nothing about cars 2. Mentions some sought-after and specific year and model of car they want 3. Claims to have no money and no tools 4. Mentions current late model vehicle they are "learning" on (despite knowing nothing and having no tools???) 5. Rarely or never answers follow up questions or is never heard from again 6. Might pop up in another thread with ideas for a completely different vehicle they can get "cheap." Just look at this one: in 3 days he goes from a '65 LeSabre Custom to a MGB? Obviously I'm pretty darn skeptical of this sort of thing. I'm more of the "work hard, save your money, and pay cash for what you want" type. I do realize this poster did not come here asking for a handout and that I'll be labeled a curmudgeon for even mentioning this stuff, but it's got all of the ingredients of a potential scam setup. Maybe totally unintentional, but they're still there. I've read quite a few accounts over the years like AlCapone's: members feel sorry and they send stuff off into the great unknown to "help out." The kid turns out to be a 20 or 30 something that's playing the sympathy card and doesn't think they should have to work for anything. If this is legit, my advice would actually be to NOT buy anything right now. Instead, I'd advise saving some money, buying a quality, BASIC set of tools (you do not need Snap-On, Mac, Matco, or Cornwall tools...Craftsman work just fine), and doing A LOT of research, reading, and learning before buying anything as the original poster does not seem to really have the means to afford the buy-in and ongoing costs of the hobby.

I sure don't mean to seem rude, but I can't imagine that I'd ever spend $1000 on ANYTHING unless I already knew exactly what it was. If you have to ask, it's probably not a good purchase for you.

The 303 products that sfair linked to are really good. I'd highly recommend their product line, and if nothing else, using the 303 Aerospace Protectant.

^^^^THIS^^^^ You get a big +1 or "like" from me on that one! Amen!

Is the classic car market soft? The market is so big now that there are really multiple “sub markets.” As to whether things are up, down, or sideways…it all depends exactly what you’re looking at. It isn’t really accurate to say the market is doing one thing or another because it doesn’t move up and down as a block. Some market segments are absolutely on fire, while others just keep chugging along virtually unchanged for decades. There’s a lot to think about here, but as has been pointed out, don’t confuse “market” with value nor with liquidity. I would add that one should not use liquidity alone as the basis for gauging the market. Plenty of things have “value” that aren’t easy to sell quickly. You can have high liquidity in both up and down markets. I think we’re seeing some lower prices on cars and parts simply because of the economy. Simplified, it comes down to no money = no fun, with “fun” of course being things that one engages in discretionary spending on such as collector cars. I suppose we can point fingers at the internet too. It’s made it pretty easy for someone to figure out what they have and to very inexpensively advertise items for sale or wanted to an international audience. Items that were long thought of as “rare” and/or “valuable” suddenly became not so rare and not so valuable when a dozen of them could be purchased online at any given time. This has driven prices down. It’s supply and demand. The ebay phenomenon, you know, though it’s not strictly limited to ebay. One of the other things that I think we are seeing is folks are trying to get out of cars and parts they bought at high prices not too long ago. Someone that bought something only a year or two ago probably hasn’t forgotten what they paid for it and isn’t willing to take a loss on it. So, things go on the market and simply sit and sit. The seller digs in at the price and complains the market is soft. The buyers pass it up because it’s overpriced for the market and so on. I would also ask this: does it matter? To the true enthusiasts and collectors, it shouldn’t really matter. In fact, I would think that a down market would give them more buying power by virtue of prices being lower. To those that tried to get in on the action by flipping cars or dealing parts, yes, a down market can hurt and really matter to them. But those who truly love the cars will not be affected by market direction…they’ll be loving and collecting them just the same. Last, what about the idea that perhaps we’re seeing the market transition from one generation to the next and that the next generation is still feeling out what they’re interested in?

I don't live that far from the event, yet far enough that I'm not going to drive 200 miles if I'm hearing about low turnout. Especially if the thing is practically over before it starts. Too bad, I guess. Low vendor turn out = low shopper turnout while at the same time low shopper turnout this year = low vendor turnout for next year = lower shopper turnout next year. So on and so on. It's a hard cycle to break and once most swap meets get sucked in, it's almost impossible for them to dig themselves out. I see this happening at all of the swap meets that I would consider even relatively local to me. I know that personally if I go to a bad meet, I'm not going to bother to spend the time and money to go back next time. I guess that makes me part of the problem I'm complaining about, but at the same time I didn't create the problem. I will not go to bad meets repeatedly simply on the basis of principle. Vicious cycle, it seems.

Agreed value insurance (not stated value) is what you want. Call a reputable agreed value car insurance company and see what sort of "agreed" value you come up with. That will give you your ultimate answer. They're usually pretty happy to let you overvalue your vehicles (within reason) so long as you pay the premiums for doing so. No messing with appraisers, price guides, auction results or any of that. At the end of the day the only thing that really matters anyway is what agreed value you and the insurance company come up with, so why not just go to them first?

Yep, we've talked about these scams several times. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't hurt to mention that it's an ongoing problem and remind folks to be careful. Whatever you do, don't ever pay by Western Union. It's like sending cash to a stranger but worse. There is no tracking and no recourse if your transaction goes bad. Once they've got your money, you're not getting it back. Always remember that no reputable seller will ever ONLY accept Western Union while rejecting all other forms of payment. Postal money orders are, unfortunately, almost just as bad for the same reasons, despite the fact that you buy them from the post office so it "feels safer." Paypal is by far the safest way to pay individuals all over the world, and depending on your method of payment through Paypal, you have recourse through not only Paypal but also (possibly) though your bank and definitely through your credit card company. Paypal can be tracked, payments can be reversed (or seized), and your personal information and bank/credit card numbers remain confidential to the individual on the other end. It is not quite as safe as using a real, reputable escrow service, but as a buyer you have a lot of protection when using Paypal. My suggestion is always use a credit card with Paypal because you can always turn to your credit card company in the event the transaction goes totally off the rails. For me, a no photos and/or no Paypal transaction means "pass" when conducting (potential) business with an individual. Maybe I've passed over some honest souls, but I try to take reasonable steps to protect myself against scams and fraud by sticking to my rules.

I think, generally speaking, you guys are reading into this way too much. The lawsuit & liability thing seems to be a non-issue in this case as Chrysler came out and said they have no information to support any of the rumors that there was joyriding, crashes, and so on. It pretty clearly states they are pulling the cars because they've reached the end of their useful lives for their originally intended purpose which was to educate, not over any sort of legal issue or anything else. I'm sure that titles were never transferred and that Chrysler retained ownership all along. Company mergers, acquisitions, and sell-offs don't change that. At the end of the day, the schools don't own the cars and can't make the decisions. It's sad they're being destroyed though, for sure. Quick story... In the late 1980s-mid 1990s I was in a similar situation with Yamaha (as they introduced 4 wheel atvs). I had many early Yamaha atvs in my possession over that time, including the VERY first Yamaha YFM-80 Moto 4, a several Yamaha Banshees (including a first year 1987 model), a first year Yamaha Blaster, first year Warrior, a Champ 100, a YZ-250 dirt bike (works racer), and so on. I rode them for 3&4 Wheel Action Magazine and later Dirt Wheels Magazine. They were reviewed, in photo shoots, etc. But the kicker was that Yamaha retained ownership of all of them. One day, after several years and seemingly out of the blue, I was contacted by Yamaha and told that the time had come to turn in all of the bikes. A deal was worked out to keep a couple of them, but everything else had to go back and was destroyed. I'm still sad about the YFM-80...that was my favorite one of the bunch and was just a little shaft drive 80cc machine with no clutch and no suspension (the Suzuki LT-80 was far superior). It was incredibly exciting to be riding 4 wheeled ATVs at a time when most people didn't even know they existed yet and were still riding 3 wheelers and dirt bikes. The only reason that Yamaha did it was because what I had on hand had become obsolete and they didn't want those products in circulation anymore and certainly didn't want them in magazines or photo shoots. My point is that this stuff is going on all the time. The models that I had were all press fleet & prototype models that are (arguably, I suppose) of some historical significance (they were the first 4 wheelers from Yamaha) and now they're gone. Sad that it's happening with early Vipers, but it's the way it goes in the business.

Here are some others I see quite often along with what (unfortunately) is actually the case... Barn Find...........................Translation: Dirt and rodents included free with every purchase. Also can be: "we love this car so much that we forgot we even had it!" Original Paint......................Translation: It had original paint at one time! Ran when parked................Didn't they all? Rare color.........................Translation: Nobody liked it when it was new. Rebuilt.............................Translation: Someone started to take it apart Surface rust only................Translation: ALL of the surfaces are rusty, some of them all the way through to the other side!

I looked around a little bit for photos of such a setup and didn't find anything. Do you have anything you could post or somewhere you could point me? I'm simply curious about it and would like to take a look if there are any photos out there.

Perhaps it goes without saying, but the trailer would also have to be plated & registered. In some states getting that requires a state inspection. My question for Auburnseeker is this: is the trailer worth having? Could the deal be renegotiated so that you leave the trailer behind and have the parts loaded into a ready-to-roll tractor-trailer rig which would then be unloaded at your location? Of course that creates an issue on the front end with getting the parts loaded up, but that may be an easier nut to crack than having a driver show up only to (possibly) find a trailer that he can't or won't pull. If you really do want the trailer as part of the deal or don't want to mess with transferring the load to another trailer, just know that the type of service you're looking for is called "power only shipping." It's really not that easy to find as most trucking companies want to either pull their own trailers or won't run a tractor only to the pickup and don't want to end up with no trailer to pull back for the return trip.

I believe that these used the same engine as the Yamaha YSR mini superbikes, which are very popular. Perhaps the YSR community (which has an active aftermarket & parts network) could be of use to you?

I believe I've mentioned this before in other threads, but it's worth repeating here: Look into registration through the state of Vermont. Note that I said registration, not title. Vermont does not issue titles to any vehicle older than 2000. Their website outlines the procedure to obtain a registration and basically only requires a bill of sale and odometer disclosure statement (yeah, I know). Vermont has absolutely no issue with folks living out of state as long as the forms are correct and you pay the necessary fees. THEN... Once you have the registration in your name in Vermont, you transfer it into your state and apply for a title. Since Vermont is a "no old title" state, your home state DMV (Texas in my case) can issue you a title once you're able to demonstrate that the reason you don't have a title is because Vermont never required one. This is quick, easy, cheap, and the worst case scenario is that you end up with no title but have a vehicle legally registered in Vermont that will run Vermont plates. It's almost the perfect solution to "barn find" vehicles, I think. This, with a few extra hassle steps, is EXACTLY how Broadway title and others operated (sometimes through Alabama which closed the loop hole from what I understand) and charged and exorbitant fee for doing so. Don't pay someone else...do it yourself, do it right, and save a bunch in the process. No ads to run, no "abandoned vehicle" searches, no bonded titles, no DMV torture. It's easy and totally legal, which is the most important part.

Look at this thread and then go back and read some of the responses in the "Thread on Non AACA Members Only." Stuff like this does absolutely nothing to make the AACA seem attractive to a potential member. In fact, it's a huge turn off. I'll crawl back in my hole now while the rest of you continue on...

ACF-50 is pretty much the same stuff as Boeshield and is also intended for use as an aircraft corrosion inhibitor. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/acf50.php Neat car...glad you're going to preserve and enjoy it!

I did a little chopping of your previous post so that my reply wouldn't completely repost everything you'd already said. Anyway... My experience with cosmoline is that is dries to a tacky, waxy feel and not that is remains as a non-drying film. I've dealt with a lot of it as it was very common in the small engine world in the 1940s (read: scooter parts) for manufacturers like Briggs & Stratton to dip parts in cosmoline (or spray it on, I suppose) to preserve them if there were not going to be used immediately, mostly engine blocks and other cast iron parts. I actually still use cosmoline on old cast iron parts I buy, clean up, and need to store indefinitely. Unless it is applied too heavily, my experience is that it always dries tacky. Anyway... Boeshield T-9 is almost exactly the same as ACF-50 and is actually designed as an aircraft corrosion inhibitor. I think that either of those products would probably be ok for your use as well. As for clear coating it, I wouldn't do it to the whole car and certainly wouldn't clear coat just the rust. I've seen plenty of rat-rod type vehicles that have had this treatment. Outside of that "look," it just doesn't work for me. Very strange to see shiny rust, flaked paint now locked in place by clear coat, and so on. It just wouldn't look right in my opinion. I think your best move is to carefully detail the car and hit the rust spots with one of the products we've been discussing and leave it at that. You'll have to carefully monitor it and re-apply your product of choice every now and then, but that shouldn't be a big deal, right?

There is some Emblem motorcycle information online. Probably the best place to start would be with the Antique Motorcycle Club of America. There have been some folks there with Emblem's over the years and I recall a thread or two on their message board about someone looking for Emblem stuff...was that you?

I would try Gibbs. Many in the antique motorcycle community swear by it. It is certainly a product that can do no harm. I've seen many motorcycles treated with Gibbs and they look great and original surfaces appear to be doing just fine: paint, plating, bare metal and so on. Apparently you can spray the stuff on almost anything. I've read and been told that some mix it 1/3 Gibbs, 1/3 Marvel Mystery Oil, 1/3 kerosene. I'm not sure I'd use Marvel because I don't know what it would do to paint because of the red color of the oil. Kerosene is probably fine, but seem a bit unnecessary unless you really want to cut the amount of Gibbs you're using up. With that said, I have used ACF-50 for the exact same purpose simply because that's what I had on hand. I suppose that a spray and wipe with WD-40 would probably accomplish the same thing and is likely the cheapest to buy in bulk. The can still rust though. No matter what you're doing, you're just treating the surface. Rust can continue to 'creep' under the paint, on the back side of panels, etc. Treating the car with an oil product and keeping the car dry is probably the best thing you can do to preserve the original paint and keep the rust under control, but just as the saying goes, rust never sleeps.

I am of the belief that parts will be available for the cars of the 90's in another 50 years. OEM stuff that is NOS will command a premium just as it does today, but if there is enough demand or an owner willing to invest enough dollars in the project, anything can be fixed, restored, or reproduced...including plastic and electronic components.

I'd put 5.0 Mustangs on the list. The third generation cars, particularly the '87-'93 models. There is also Ford's SVT department began in 1993 and came out with an SVT Cobra almost right off the bat. Both the regular 5.0 and the SVT cars were pretty hot cars back in the day and many of them were driven into the ground by young guys that abused them. I can't remember anyone that didn't want one. That is the kind of car that will be sought after in 50 years, I'd say. Slightly more exotic, the Dodge Viper. They're not exactly overlooked now, but I'd guess that in 50 years, folks will actually be "collecting" them.

There is a legal answer and the practical answer. The legal answer is: yes, of course it is copyrighted and trademarked and cannot be reproduced. The practical answer is: paint it on if you'd like to. Nobody will know or care that would have anything to do with Ford's copyright and trademark. I cannot, however, blame any business for refusing to do the work for you. They are protecting themselves and might have a lot to lose in the event that a suit was brought against them. I had a professional printer once that refused to scan and reprint a poster sized advertisement for me of a vehicle. They didn't care that the company had been out of business for many years and the product hadn't been produced for more than 60 years...they simply said "no, we cannot reproduce copyrighted and/or trademarked work of others, sorry."

I am not an expert on this, but the fall of 1908 was the first of Model T production. Additionally, the Sears Motor Buggy was available in 1908 and was included in Sears catalogs. There were earlier automobiles than both the Model T and the Sears Motor Buggy, so it all depends on exactly what "commonly available" means. That said, 1908 would have been the BEGINNING of commonly available as I see it.