1903 Ford A

[rcr]

All the correct 1903 features such as fenders and irons , correct steps mounted in proper place also runabout rear deck lid, but with a 12/14 horsepower Brennan engine available in late 1904 through 1905 . Has been in storage since the 1950s' I have not run it but it has compression and was running in the 50s' Pennsylvania title and body # 27  $57 K  Hershey RCM 42/ 43  

[rcr]

An incredibly discerning and sharp eyed sleuth at the Hershey AACA flea market has found the lightly stamped vestiges of a number in front of the 27. On closer examination after carefully scraping a little more paint a 5 was found every so lightly applied. This makes the body #527 probably thereby making the car worthless as teams of micrometer men and measuring squads descended upon it and held clandestine meetings about it. The word WRONG has been applied to the engine .  I do not know what to say but that I apologize for  wasting everyones'

time. 

[JFranklin]

A nice car that a lot of people will want, but if you feel it is worthless I'll come get it. I'll toss in a Ford T to boot!

[wayne sheldon]

A bit of a tough one. While the Brennan engine is not factory correct, and that detail (due to the year of the motor) would exclude the car from being accepted to run in the London to Brighten Run in England (soon upon us for this year). It would not necessarily (and probably not at all) prevent the car from being run and enjoyed within the HCCA in this country. (The simple fact is, the VMCC of GB has much more strict standards of authentication than we use here.

I don't know if it is still available or not (it may have sold and I likely would not have heard). However, a few months back, I knew of a well restored early Ford model A that had nearly impeccable history, and a nearly flawless restoration, it was available for a bit over $100K. It was said by many that it was well worth the price. I myself spent nearly an hour drooling over the detailed photos!

 

Nit-picking cars for sale is a tough call. Often, it is well justified. Sometimes sellers mislead buyers out of ignorance. However, I don't see that here. You clearly stated the car had a Brennan replacement engine. They have a known history. I have heard of several cars of differing marques that had similar replacement engines. Several of them, I have seen on tours.

 

I can't afford to buy anything. But I see a worthwhile project that with only a little effort could be used and enjoyed while a "proper" engine was being sought. Assessing an "actual" dollar value is difficult on a car such as this. But I do not believe rcr should feel a need to apologize for anything.

 

But that is just my silly observation.

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, wayne sheldon said:

A bit of a tough one.

I agree.  When it comes to early Fords, there are a lot of people who've studied them and know them well.  Any posting of an "original" car on the MFCA forum gets nit picked to death.

 

With the non-original engine, I think the value of this car goes way down.  I think there may be an original engine or two floating around (I've tripped over one before at a certain location) but a)it would be expensive to buy one and b) if someone has a spare engine, then a car can be built around it for a lot less than $57K.

 

I also agree that rcr was up front and honest, now the question just becomes who wants the car and what are they willing to pay (assuming it didn't sell at Hershey).....

[mercer09]

very interesting discussion and hope the seller has good success.

 

it is always questionable on restorations, as to how much replacement body work is acceptable on an " original" chassis, and obviously does affect value. Adversely, this automobile is affected from the other direction. The chass is being mostly original with exception to the motor.

 

so many early cars have just original chassis and the bodies redone completely years ago. I guess due diligence is always in order. this is esp true with Stanleys, which sell for a fairly high value.

[rcr]

Thank you gentlemen for your candid and honest assessments. I have seen an original engine which was offered to me but then a '''friend" talked the seller out of letting it go. There is a very capable fellow manufacturing new engines in Canada and the work is in process. The figures would come in below the $100K mentioned value and a partially correct car sold in June in Nederland for $166K  I am of the opinion that this Brennan engined car with almost twice the horsepower of the 1903 original 8hp engine would be a fine reliable performer and one should not base their entire automotive plans on a L to B run which to say the least can be expensive and stressful. I saw nothing of Hershey this year as I was totally engaged with the two machines I took for sale. I brought them both home and am somewhat surprised as it was not due to a lack of interest. My only other regret is that I was never even able to get away long enough to get a Sherri's crabcake. 

[wayne sheldon]

Don't hold me to it. However, I was told that a two cylinder Ford engine was at the Bakersfield swap meet about four years ago. I do not know whether it was an A C or F engine. But I hear there are a few of them around (although rather pricey I am sure!).

I am totally out of the market, so I don't know that my opinion means anything or not. However, if I were barely in the market, I think I would prefer a mostly original car with a hundred and nearly fifteen year old original era replacement engine in it than a made up of maybe not very many original correct parts car with maybe part of an original Ford engine in it. It is a tough call! 

The fact is that there are a lot of beautiful cars on our tours that are a lot less original than we want to think they are.  And nobody (including me!) really wants to tell them to go home. I have said for many years that I would rather have a wrinkled original than a flawless copy. However, whether it is a Stanley Steamer, Curved Dash Oldsmobile, or an early Ford, we like to see nice historic (at least appearing) cars on the road. Even if they are 3/4 reproduction. 

Here again is that line in the sand that is not difficult to draw. It is IMPOSSIBLE to draw! How much replacement is too much replacement?  One cannot consider a Lozier the same way one does a Stanley, or the same as an early model T Ford. They are all totally different situations, how they were manufactured, whether other cars used the same outsources, how difficult it is to make a single copy piece. If a car is assembled from nearly all CORRECT parts? I think it should be considered basically, but not exactly, the same as a complete survivor car. Then again, take that complete survivor, and restore it. New fenders, new radiator, new body, all new top, paint ,upholstery etc etc etc. Suddenly, the "put-together" car may be more original!

 

While it does and SHOULD affect the dollar value? I don't see this Brennan engined model A as being anything bad. Just how acceptable it should be may depend upon how well the Brennan engine fits the car.  I saw pictures once of a CDO engine next to an era replacement for the CDO (don't know if it was Brennan or not, there were a couple companies making replacement engines for several of the more common early cars), one could hardly tell the original CDO from the replacement engine. 

[1912Staver]

I am completely with Wayne on this issue. The car looks like a delightful time capsule that would be treasured by at least 90% of the early car folks out there. 

 No, it would not be London to Brighton eligible however as has already been pointed out by others, the vast majority of us here in North America are not in a position to enter that particular event anyway. The car would however be welcomed at nearly any event in North America. Nearly anyone seriously contemplating a L to B entry can probably afford a officially accepted car  anyway so really they are not part of the target market.

Certainly the market value is effected by the changed engine however the car is still a real gem, and the reduced price just widens its prospective target audience. 

 

Greg in Canada

[cahartley]

20 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 I was told that a two cylinder Ford engine was at the Bakersfield swap meet about four years ago. I do not know whether it was an A C or F engine. But I hear there are a few of them around (although rather pricey I am sure!).

 

 

MANY years ago Chet Krause acquired the first car that came to Waupaca County, WI, the county in which he was born and raised......a 1903 Ford Model A.

Even then the restorers could not find a pair of Model A cylinders so they put on Model B jugs.

We wound up with it as it had a history of over heating.

It was readily apparent to me WHY.

Whoever plumbed it had it circulating water only through the engine and pump.......the radiator never got even lukewarm....... 

It was a real picnic plumbing it over but that was the end of that.......  

[veteran car SA]

Who is the person in Canda remaking the early Ford motor?

[jgsmith]

The late Sandy McTavish and his son Ross were in the final stages of reproducing the 8 hp Model A engines before Sandy's passing.  I'm not sure if Ross has continued with the project or not.  He's a very busy (and talented) guy who has a family, a full-time job and other responsibilities which don't leave him a lot of time for doing work for other people.  It's probably worth asking him the status of the engines, though.

 

Many years ago (about 1990), my friend Walt Grove offered me a chance to buy his 1903 Ford which had a 10 hp engine.  It was a fairly late serial number for an '03, and we could see no evidence of anything having been altered to accommodate a change.  Did it come from the factory that way?  Who knows, but it probably would have led to some folks nit-picking over it.  Overall, the car was in good, mostly original condition.  Like this one, it had been running in the 1950's, but had been neglected for many years and required a complete restoration or at least some extensive mechanical refurbishment.  At the time, I could have afforded to buy the car, but would have had no funds to do anything much to it.

 

Since then, the value of two cylinder Fords has increased significantly.  If nothing else, the car would have been a good investment.  More recently, I had the opportunity to drive Peter Fawcett's beautiful 1904 AC Ford and was really impressed with how well it ran and handled.  It made me think back to Walt's car, perhaps a little regretfully. At the least, it would be interesting to know where it is now.  That all said, I have three cars that I'm very happy with, and they are more than enough to keep me busy and interested.

 

I hope someone buys this car and puts it into a condition where it could be run and enjoyed, either with a Brennan or Ford engine.

[musicancars]

Good luck with your sale because have found in the past people will nit pick a car to death to drive the price down. Sometimes I think if you offered it to them for free they would expect you to not only deliver it to them but expect you to pay them to buy it from you. Cars only seem to have a value when somebody else is selling them. Your car is a nice looking vehicle and if it were mine I would use it with the current engine until I found the proper one. Ironically if it were not a well known make and if it was a lesser-known vehicle  then  unusual combinations would be acceptable. A friend of mine has two  pre 1905 vehicles of the same manufacturer  one has the original single cylinder engine  and the other one  has a slightly longer wheelbase with a 3 cylinder engine  which was not known about for that particular manufacturer . so anything is possible back in that early era of car manufacturers  when they were practically hobbling anything together to make a sale  or get in on the automobile craze . Good luck

Edited October 23, 2018 by musicancars (see edit history)

[mercer09]

Hey Music,

 

it isnt a Cadillac.................. LOL!

[musicancars]

Thank you for reminding me. my brain must have glitched at that moment. LOL I think it has something to do with Ford having started out with what later became the Cadillac company after the stockholders tossed him out that caused the glitch . thank you for pointing that out

[Joe in Canada]

17 hours ago, jgsmith said:

The late Sandy McTavish and his son Ross were in the final stages of reproducing the 8 hp Model A engines before Sandy's passing.  I'm not sure if Ross has continued with the project or not.  He's a very busy (and talented) guy who has a family, a full-time job and other responsibilities which don't leave him a lot of time for doing work for other people.  It's probably worth asking him the status of the engines, though.

John did Sandy not produce a few open valve Model T engine years ago and do you know how many?

Edited October 23, 2018 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[oily rag]

6 hours ago, mercer09 said:

Hey Music,

 

it isnt a Cadillac.................. LOL!

Fords and Cadd's had the same body supplier for 1903. (both were also Model A's )

[mercer09]

very aware- but isnt this car supposed to be a Ford?

[rcr]

Thank you Mr. Musician for wishing me so much luck twice in your message and the Automobile in question is indeed a 1903 Ford at least that is what all of the micrometer men said at Hershey as well as the Pennsylvania title and also the step plates. It is also interesting to note your use of the word "nitpick" originally referring to literally removing invisibly tiny louse eggs by hand. (Flea eggs)

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by rcr (see edit history)

[mercer09]

also, hence the word "nitwit!  

[brasscarguy]

I believe all of Sandy's patterns were sold to Whalen Henry in Oregon. Sandy purchased 2 open valve T motors from my father many years ago and then used them for patterns to cast new blocks. I happened to purchase one of his blocks at Hershey a few years back.

 

Whalen has manufactured an early  4 cylinder model B Ford for a car he had with missing motor. Whalen has a complete selection of "letter" Fords including 2 B's, a K and everything in between. He is a very creative machinist and has done some incredible work.

 

I suggest you enjoy your Ford with the Brennen engine. It is an outstanding survivor. Most people that would see your car touring around would not know the difference and really who cares . The experts will but who cares, your car runs and drives which is a lot more that some experts can say about their cars.

 

just sayin

 

brasscarguy

[jgsmith]

Joe

He did make a few engines.  I believe they were the early waterpump type, as used in the first T's.  I have no idea how many he made.  Sandy was a genius at being able to fix and/or reproduce parts.