Mudbone Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 My Manual reads 15-25 Ft lbs of pull on a spring scale at a specified distance from the ball. I am getting about 14-15 lbs. If I take out a shim it is too tight. Anyone else had this experience? Mud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 MudboneIf you are using the outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized rubber, there is no need to use shims except as gaskets. That adjusting procedure is only if you are using the originally supplied metal outer torque ball retainer. I just apply a little silicone grease to the rubber on the outer torque ball retainer.If you have the outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized rubber and it is zinc plated as supplied by those obnoxious New Jersey boys it will fail after the rubber swells and detaches.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 As I recall the shims were made of paper, more like thin gaskets on the standard shift cars. If you do not have the vulcanized rubber type, then just make another gasket from thinner paper. If you can get to around 20 ft. lbs it should be OK. The old mechanics did this by feel back in the day.Don't expect that it will totally stop leaking after you finish the job. ALL Buicks with torque tube drive leak a little.Joe, BCA 33493 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Holmberg Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 This`s how it looks like,and C is very importent if you don`t want it to leak oil Leif in Sweden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudbone Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Guys, I made a short video of the assembly, so we are all on the same page. Let me know if this is right. Thanks, Mud Torque Ball Adjust - YouTube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The parts from Fatsco are good quality and will serve you well (I was referring to different New Jersey boys). I just put mine together with the gaskets, never check the pull, and just drive it (thousands of miles a year). The outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized rubber came out in I think 1957. Maybe someone with a 57 or 58 manual can check the procedure. My retired transmission mentor says to just slap it together and drive it...and practice apparently shows it works.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudbone Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks guys for all the info. I want to wrap this trans up today so I can start on the engine. Mud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I finally remembered that I have a 58 Flightpitch manual. So I looked at the torque ball section and there are no adjustments during assembly. It uses the same outer torque ball retainer, but uses 'sealing rings' instead of gaskets and shims.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Guys, I made a short video of the assembly, so we are all on the same page. Let me know if this is right. Thanks, MudTorque Ball Adjust - YouTubeMud, I'm getting a Video Not Available ; ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudbone Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share Posted February 16, 2014 Mud, I'm getting a Video Not Available ; (MrEarl, that video has been removed from You Tube. Old Tank set me straight on the adjustment. The original setup did not have the vulcanized rubber seal. The new style just requires gaskets between each part. Also the rubber boot is not really needed. However, you guys know me by now. I have a hard time leaving stuff alone. I was very reluctant to post this video, as I know I would get a lot of flack from it. But here goes…..(Be Nice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 No flack here Mud. It is a good video showing the installation of the vulcanized version and related boot if one desires to have the boot. I enjoy all your videos of work in progress. Overall, the vulcanized seal is far superior in my opinion. I have it on my manual transmission. The area between the inner TB retainer that sits on the transmission case proper received a gasket. The TB retainer with vulcanized seal received a gasket as well but later removed as there was some leaking at the vulcanized seal. I used some sealant between the two parts. Problem solved. Funny how just a small thickness of gasket material is the difference between a drip and drip free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think if you're gonna be running through many cornfields it would indeed be wise to have that boot on their Mud. Like you said grit and sand getting between the retainer and the vulcanized rubber can't be good for it. In fact, you have another lip left on that pulley right, how 'bout I send you a retainer and you weld me up one like yours. I mean it looked like you were having so much fun cutting that one off, I wouldn't think you would charge me TOO much... The line starts here fella's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) MudboneIf you are using the outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized rubber, there is no need to use shims except as gaskets. That adjusting procedure is only if you are using the originally supplied metal outer torque ball retainer. I just apply a little silicone grease to the rubber on the outer torque ball retainer.If you have the outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized rubber and it is zinc plated as supplied by those obnoxious New Jersey boys it will fail after the rubber swells and detaches.WillieYOU MEAN LIKE THIS. Just removed from a 3 speed. The parts invoice from the previous owner of the car showed the one on the left came from somewhere other than Bobs or Fatsco or David Edwards and had less than 500 miles on it. The one on the right is new and is from David Edwards. Edited February 18, 2014 by MrEarl (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 YOU MEAN LIKE THIS. Just removed from a 3 speed. The parts invoice from the previous owner of the car showed the one on the left came from somewhere other than Bobs or Fatsco or David Edwards and had less than 500 miles on it. The one on the right is new and is from David Edwards. YUP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Lamar, the entire rubber seal is gone. No wonder it leaked like a sieve! The new one on the right looks exactly like mine that I reused after installing the clutch and transmission. Works like a champ! Yours will too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I finally have found an original boot style retainer. I'm having a beer now so I am not gonna post a pic, but maybe tomorrow if somebody reminds me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) I had found a couple in the barn loft and was planning on putting one on but guess what, forgot about it until working with a winch and cable, I already had the guide pins started in the holes and shafts mated up. Didn't take me but a few seconds to think, "Hell nobody is using them anymore, I ain't about to pull it back and start again" I even convinced myself that if it is on and not sealed right at the retainer it could actually hold water and dirt. Those things aren't easy to put on when the tranny is out of the car much less in. i'm havin a beer now too. or is that two beers now or.... I'm too lazy to take picures, here is one off eBay. <img src="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/54roadmasters/54Muscle%20II%20-%20Morning%20Glory/KGrHqVocFHlTUNqOBR-wg7fzuQ60_57_zpsd4c72343.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo KGrHqVocFHlTUNqOBR-wg7fzuQ60_57_zpsd4c72343.jpg"/> Edited February 19, 2014 by MrEarl (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 The new design of vulcanized seal is very similar to a few front drive axle knuckles I have seen. No boot on the knuckle. The seal rides the ball similar to the Buick TB. Dirt and grit do not cause issues. I do not see the boot as necessary but I see no harm if installed. Personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm here to tell ya, when working by yourself with car on jack stands, rear axle supported by 2 floor jacks and wood blocks, torque tube riding on an old MAC mechanics seat, using a com-along to winch the assembly forward inch by inch and NLT 20 trips up/back/and back down under to check for alignment and matching splines, this is one beautiful site V One thing my new shop will have, even if I have to fore go heat, is A LIFT!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Yes it is! Great feeling of accomplishment! I was lucky Lamar. My splines with one small turn of the rear wheel and a push forward of the entire assembly that was riding on a floor jack...it all came together without a hitch. Drew the assembly completely together with the nuts and bolts that are used for final assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 well, 20 trips may have been a little exaggeration but the next day it felt like it must have been 100. I spend most of my time these days just getting up and down. And screw a creeper, after missing it a couple of times and it flipping up, it ended up flying over into a corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 My wife got me a creeper for Christmas. This after seeing me sliding under the Buick. I have used it to good effect. Are you road ready and leak free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) got her all buttoned back up and brakes bled today but while on the stands pulled the wires off and cleaned and polished them a bit. Test run tomorrow. Edited February 20, 2014 by MrEarl (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 got her all buttoned back up today but while on the stands pulled the wires off and cleaned and polished them a bit. Test run tomorrow. It is tomorrow!! Report in!! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Here's to a leak free TB retainer seal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 It is tomorrow!! Report in!! BenHe's still trying to get those *&^%$# wire wheels back on! :mad:Hint: make some guide pins (9/16-18).Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 It is tomorrow!! Report in!! BenNot a drop did she drip and I got rid of the droop. (New Roadmaster springs providing a 250 lb overload, raised the rear end about 1 inch, just like I like it)He's still trying to get those *&^%$# wire wheels back on! :mad:Hint: make some guide pins (9/16-18).WillieYou're dead on their Willie. I've gained a new respect for guide pins lately. I tell ya, you really gotta love Buick to put up with some of their "what were they thinking" design ideas. IE 1) ONE guide pin per wheel, ONE!!! why not 5 or 6, called lug bolts like everybody else. 2) the torque ball. nuff said 3)the brake master cylinder under the floor board, requiring you to pull up a 60 year old rubber floor mat WITHOUT TEARING.OK Mud, I'm done hijackin your thread. I'll go post on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Forget posting in your own Lamar, go for a long drive with the missus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) Sorry to show up for class 3 weeks late but I need some help with the torque ball. My newly refreshed trans leaked between the outer torque ball retainer and the rubber boot. I made the club and had about 10lbs resistance in a horizontal position. When I tilted it down a little it broke loose in the normal driving position. Disassembly revealed a no notch .015 shim between the torque ball retainers. A one notch .012 shim had been used as a gasket between the inner torque ball retainer and the transmission tail shaft housing. I bet that 2, 3, 4, notch shims are still with the kit in the trans shop. But I would like to use an outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized seal. Can I get one of these for a 53 and if so, who sells the best one? Do I use a gasket or shim with it between the retainers? The plug and sleeve tool J2597 scared the trans man and me, but I don't think it is necessary with the improved 53 propeller shaft seal. My seal stayed with the rear end when I removed it. Can I just pry this seal out and slide a new one over the propeller shaft sleeve? Thank you all,Pat Edited March 15, 2014 by 53 Roady (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 But I would like to use an outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized seal. Can I get one of these for a 53 and if so, who sells the best one? The plug and sleeve tool J2597 scared the trans man and me, but I don't think it is necessary with the improved 53 propeller shaft seal. My seal stayed with the rear end when I removed it. Can I just pry this seal out and slide a new one over the propeller shaft sleeve? Thank you all,PatBut I would like to use an outer torque ball retainer with the vulcanized seal. Can I get one of these for a 53 and if so, who sells the best one?IMO David Edwards is the go to for all years torque ball seals> http://www.autotran.us/DF_TB_Retainer.html Do I use a gasket or shim with it between the retainers? Shims NO. Gaskets yes and no. I used the gasket David provided for the inner and outer but have heard reports of leaks from the vulcan seal when using them. Mine has not dripped a drop in 3 weeks now so I recommend using them and if a leak develops loosening the retainers enough to remove (by cutting) the gaskets, put it back together and praying.My seal stayed with the rear end when I removed it. Can I just pry this seal out and slide a new one over the propeller shaft sleeve?Yes, I used a pick awl to tap into it and pry the old one out then slipped the new one on and used a piece of PVC to tap the new one into place. To quote ol' Buickwise Willie "the lip goes toward what you're trying to seal", in this case the transmission from the torque tube. Mine was in backards and my tube was full of fluid but it was 3 speed tranny fluid so no worry as that is the same as is in the rear end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks to all and especially Misters Earl and Mud. I have ordered a vulcanized kit from Dave Edwards and have high hopes.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) I'm still trying to outsmart the torque ball. I got a vulcanized retainer and .015 gaskets from Dave Edwards. I used the gaskets and silicone grease. Too tight. I added a no notch .015 shim between retainers for a total of .030. It will almost tighten to the gaskets but the club won't move the ball. I'm going to start additional shimming to try to get a moveable (with the club) torque ball. Am I missing something or just dealing with variation?I got it to move some with another .012 shim for a total of .042 and the bolts are snugging up. It balks a bit though and then moves. I'm wondering if the silicone grease is sticky. How about lubriplate or anti-seize?Pat Edited March 20, 2014 by 53 Roady (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) 53 Roady, the new vulcanized retainers is really just a bolt on affair. No shims needed. I re-used mine after a trans swap with success. There is a gasket between the inner ball retainer and transmission housing. Some silicone added. Between the outer ball retainer with the thick rubber seal and the inner ball retainer I used as gasket but found a drip or two. I loosened the outer and cut out the gasket. Used a fine coat of silicone and tighten down. Drip stopped. I did not use the broom handle to achieve drag at a determined weight. The new design is really bolt on and go. Edited March 20, 2014 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Like Chris said and what I tried to say in my post, when you bolt the new vulcanized retainer on there is no need for shims, nor for testing with the broom stick. It will be TIGHT, very tight. That is what seals it, the tightness of the torque ball against the vulcanized rubber of the outer retainer. So at this point I'd suggest removing the shims, leaving the gasket and tightening it back down. Worked for my fitty fo, should work for a fitty free. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 53 Roady Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Once again thank you both. I must confess I went ahead. When I took the ball back apart there was scoring of the torque ball. I found a burr on the inner retainer. I don't know how it got there but I filed it and lapped the balls together with valve compound. I was still afraid of the lock up tightness. It would have broken the club to move it. I ended up with .033 shims and anti-seize and it was tight but moveable. I have the rear end mostly in now and will have to mail order new gaskets so I guess I'll see what it does ....and then probably start over....or try cutting the gaskets.Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidyavidy Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Was just browsing some of the problems to see what the fixes were and came across this one. I'm familiar with the names of Bob's & Fatsco that you mentioned (Bob's Automobilia & Fatsco Transmission I assume), but haven't heard of David Edwards. Who or what is this? I typed in the name on my browser, but just got some photographer.Dave Johnson, FL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I am pretty sure Dave Edwards is where most of the other vendors (w/one exception for sure) get their kits from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I believe Bob gets his retainers re-vulcanized from Steele which is why you need a core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I've bought Dynaflow parts from David Edwards for about 30 years, or so. Always had good service from him and no issues with his parts. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1953mack Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Once again thank you both. I must confess I went ahead. When I took the ball back apart there was scoring of the torque ball. I found a burr on the inner retainer. I don't know how it got there but I filed it and lapped the balls together with valve compound. I was still afraid of the lock up tightness. It would have broken the club to move it. I ended up with .033 shims and anti-seize and it was tight but moveable. I have the rear end mostly in now and will have to mail order new gaskets so I guess I'll see what it does ....and then probably start over....or try cutting the gaskets.PatI've been following yours and other's Dynaflow rebuilding posts within the last year or so, along with the entertaining "short cuts" recommended by others on this Forum. Here's my reasoning on why it happened.....Rebuilder lacking overall Dynaflow knowledge and/or tools >>> rebuilder lacking the understanding of why, how to, and what a correct torque ball adjustment accomplishes and prevents >>> rebuilder skips or incorrectly does a torque ball adjustment = scored torque ball or retainer(s) >>> leaking transmission fluid. What's your plan of attack on completing the torque ball adjustment this time to prevent duplicating the problem? Not to completely hijack the original topic of this thread, my original thought on why Mudbone was not getting the recommended 15-25 pounds of drag when doing the torque ball adjustment routine could have been due to either worn torque ball or retainer surfaces (if they were high-mileage parts that were not replaced) or the correct shim thickness or combination of shims was not tried. The Buick Bible notes that five different shim thicknesses were originally available from .002" up through the .015" range. I know I'm late on this but I thought it was worth mentioning. Al MalachowskiBCA #8965"500 Miles West of Flint" Edited March 24, 2014 by 1953mack (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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