4 speed LeSabre?

Back in the 60s and 70s, I worked part-time for my uncle, who had a used car lot. My uncle found a lot of very unusual cars at the auctions and I frequently traded for them. One of my favorites was a 62 Biscayne 2 door station wagon with a 409/409. But, one car I got from my uncle always fascinated me; I couldn't tell if it was stock or not. It was a 1960 Buick LeSabre 2 door sedan, with a 4 speed. I didn't know Buick engines very well in the 60s, but I think it was either a 361 or 401 and had a 4 barrel carb. It was not exceptionally fast, but it was pretty cool driving a Buick with a 4 speed. Somebody told me the transmission was French, Pontamusson or something like that. Has anyone else ever heard of this Buick model?

There is an article on the March 2015 BCA Bugle on a 1963 LeSabre 4 speed

Doubt if the transmission was French (or German)

For what it's worth, the full sized Chryslers of about 1959-1960 used a French manufactured manual transmission. Very few were sold this way, but somebody is confusing these with the Buick.

Or it was an aftermarket 4 speed conversion. I have seen one 59 Lesabre 3 speed vehicle in the past few years, so they are out there. In this case it could have been a 3 speed car converted to 4 speed.

1957 was the first "official" year that Corvettes had a 4 speed available. At the time I think it was a Saganaw.

I'm sure other GM divisions could have a 4 speed made available to fit behind their engine.

Once Buick went to and open driveshaft you see the four speeds pop up once in a while. Ordered new, one could probably trace the car back to towing an Airstream trailer. They were quite popular from the mid '50's into the '60's. To have enough money to play in that league they would have to have been my Father's age and he didn't buy an automatic car until 1966. He surely would have bought a standard, and maybe a four speed, if he had an Airstream.

A four speed in a '60 Buick, even a base model would be a stretch. One would have to build a tailshaft with a torque ball or open the driveshaft. And the three speeds were single lever selective shifts. Pretty unlikely, I was there and very attentive.

As far as being fast, my '60 Invicta, that I bought in 1966, would run 85 MPH between the two white lines that marked the last quarter mile of my road. When the Road Runners came out they were doing mid-90's. And on the straight stretches between towns pegging the speedometer was common. Usually the speedo was bouncing around 100 after just passing three cars.

I do remember one night when the 401 got its doors blown off by a 4 speed wedge Plymouth. It ended well. The cops just shot past me putting along in the Buick and got that racer.

Back to the stories about four speeds and the like, I was about 15 when I figured out how to sort the stories. If a guy carried his folding money with a 20 on the outside and the ones in the middle, he may have been stretching the truth a bit. Don't tell your Uncle I wrote that; but you might ask him to change a $5.

Oh, here's a dated picture.

Bernie

The Corvette 4-speed was a Borg-Warner T-10, made by adding the extra gear in the rear of a 3-speed B-W (T-85?) case. I believe it would fit where the regular B-W 3-speed manual trans would fit, which saved on unique parts and such plus "swap-a-bility".

The French 4-speed was in Chrysler letter series cars in the later '50s. VERY low production as everybody else wanted the TorqueFlites. They used that particular 4-speed for its torque-handling capabilities. Chrysler got their own 4-speed in '65. There were Chrysler 3-speed manuals, too, but "Why?" as the TorqueFlite did so well in racing and otherwise? Unless it was a base model Newport V-8 with a 3-speed factory floor shift in '63-'64 model years?

JCWhitney carried "adapter kits" to put almost any manual trans behind almost any engine, so I strongly suspect some were for Nailhead V-8s. I'm not sure which 3-speed manual trans Buick used back then, but if it was the B-w 3-speed, then using the 3-speed tail housing with the T-10 "guts" and/or main case, then that might 'splain those earlier 4-speed Buicks???? This could get pretty interesting!

NTX5467

Here ya' go.

Buick used the T-10 for their four speeds in the larger cars.

The car in this video isn't a LeSabre, but it's a Buick with a 4 speed, oh yeah, and the Super Wildcat engine with 3.42 Posi. The fun begins at the 3:20 mark. Love the whine and spacing of the gears.

Here's some info on the 4-speed

Type: Borg-Warner T-10

Ratios 1st: 2.54:1

2nd: 1.89:1

3rd: 1.51:1

4th: 1.00:1

Reverse: 2.61:1

Loved the two videos.....

Thanks for that information and links, Ed!

NTX5467

I wanna see a four speed in a torque tube drive Buick. The open driveshaft cars are fairly common.

Bernie

, It was a 1960 Buick LeSabre 2 door sedan, with a 4 speed.

This is the one I read about.

Bernie

1957 was the first "official" year that Corvettes had a 4 speed available. At the time I think it was a Saganaw.

I'm sure other GM divisions could have a 4 speed made available to fit behind their engine.

Full size Chevy's finally came with a four speed stick in 1959, they were the only division to get one for that year. Pontiac got a four speed for the first time in 1960 that would be a B/W T-10. Also for the Pontiac, the three speed standard transmission column shift Saganaw had a new three speed companion in a floor shift model called a B/W T-85. It might have been possible that Olds and Buick could have got those two floor shift models IF someone knew how to order a car, but the resistance in those two divisions for anything having to do with speed had a trickle down effect to dealers as well. Evidence of that attitude was the un-willingness to go along ( especially Buick ) when Pontiac GTO started the muscle car revolution in 1964. At first the corporation hated it, but after 34,000 GTO's were sold the corporation could not ignore the money part of it, and so they ORDERED the other divisions to make their own versions of the GTO.

Here ya' go.

Buick used the T-10 for their four speeds in the larger cars.

The car in this video isn't a LeSabre, but it's a Buick with a 4 speed, oh yeah, and the Super Wildcat engine with 3.42 Posi. The fun begins at the 3:20 mark. Love the whine and spacing of the gears.

Here's some info on the 4-speed

Type: Borg-Warner T-10

Ratios 1st: 2.54:1

2nd: 1.89:1

3rd: 1.51:1

4th: 1.00:1

Reverse: 2.61:1

Notice how many revolutions of the steering wheel goes by when straightening out the car after backing out of the driveway??? Great place for a factory tach, must be just for looks!

Are you referring to the black '64? In the dialog, the driver/owner makes reference to the fact that the car does not have power steering nor does it have power brakes or a/c. The original purchaser must have had only one thought in mind when he ordered it. No excess weight and no power drains; only one belt to run the alternator. Definitely a "banker's hot rod."

Ed

Are you referring to the black '64? In the dialog, the driver/owner makes reference to the fact that the car does not have power steering nor does it have power brakes or a/c. The original purchaser must have had only one thought in mind when he ordered it. No excess weight and no power drains; only one belt to run the alternator. Definitely a "banker's hot rod."

Ed

Yes Ed that's the one, although the driver is no Cosmo Topper. Is that a old video from the late 60's 70's? Do people still wear their hair like that? Is 1966 the last year for 2X4's in a Buick?

The video was uploaded in April of 2009. I know who the guy is but don't know himpersonally; other guys in the local Buick clubs know him. This is just one of many 4 speed 2x4 Buicks that he owns. He and his dad run a body shop in Wichita.

Did you catch the guys "handle" that he uses to post to YouTube? 4speedBuick.

Yes, 1966 was the last year. Factory equipped in '64 and '65; dealer installed in early '66, and then factory installed in late '66. The later engines have an MZ code. Only 179 Rivieras were built in '66 with the MZ code. Most '66 2x4 Rivieras are the dealer installed cars. I have no info on 2x4 Buicks for '66 other than the Riviera. In know that in '64 and '65, you could get the Super Wildcat engine in the Electra, Wildcat, and Riviera. I don't know any numbers for the Electras and Wildcats.

Ed

Thanks Ed, I had supposed 66 was the last year for 2X4's. It's also the last year for Pontiac's Tri Power ( 3x2bbl. ) and Olds 3X2bbl for 1966 thanks to good old Ed Cole from corporate who eliminated multi carbureted engines......Except for his beloved Corvair and 427 Corvette. Nice guy!

I somewhat suspect the end of the multi-carb era had something to do with the introduction of the Rochester Q-Jet carburetor. ONE carburetor, 750+cfm rather than THREE carbs for similar total airflow, means decreased production complexity and better general performance.

In the book, "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors", Delorean mentioned the "calculated risk" of the GTO option package, given the corporate orientation regarding "speed" and such. Pontiac operatives thought it would "sell", as did many dealers, so by the time "corporate" discovered the GTO package, it was already a sales success . . which they had to admit was good. Plus, the option package was a "late addition" for the publication of brochures and such, so if corporate had balked, it would have been very expensive to reprint everything and get it to the dealers. So it was kind of "snuck in" and discovered too late by those that could say "No".

NTX5467

I had a friend in Denver, since deceased, who had two 1966 Riviera GS's; one with the 2x4 set up, and one with the Quadrajet. Otherwise they were identical - ST400, 3.42 Posi, same tires, etc. The car with the Q-jet would run quicker times in the 1/4 mile, but the 2x4 car went through the traps faster. He felt that the 'on demand' air flow of the Q-jet was better and the 2x4 bogged somewhat on WOT. That was until the 2x4 could really start to breathe nearing top end and until the demand for air was correct for the mechanical 2-4's, it didn't run as well. He always felt that if the race were to be increased to 3/8 mile, the 2x4 car would be car lengths ahead at the end. He didn't have the cajones to get on the interstate and see where each one would top out so perhaps we'll never know.

Ergo, I tend to agree with with the above statement.

Ed

I somewhat suspect the end of the multi-carb era had something to do with the introduction of the Rochester Q-Jet carburetor. ONE carburetor, 750+cfm rather than THREE carbs for similar total airflow, means decreased production complexity and better general performance.

In the book, "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors", Delorean mentioned the "calculated risk" of the GTO option package, given the corporate orientation regarding "speed" and such. Pontiac operatives thought it would "sell", as did many dealers, so by the time "corporate" discovered the GTO package, it was already a sales success . . which they had to admit was good. Plus, the option package was a "late addition" for the publication of brochures and such, so if corporate had balked, it would have been very expensive to reprint everything and get it to the dealers. So it was kind of "snuck in" and discovered too late by those that could say "No".

NTX5467

I think that the Q jet was or is one of the best 4bbl carburetors ever made. It's a great carburetor for mileage, and for me I use them on two of my cars and they are built for grand touring or if you don't know what that means is basically road racing. The Q jet is a carburetor that can be used on a car with displacement from less than 230 cubic inches to slightly over 455 cubic inches because the carburetor is designed to give what the engine demands thanks to it's secondary air flaps. If a 230 OHC Pontiac six can only use 450CFM, then the secondary air flap only allows that much flow, if the engine is like my 440 or 462 Pontiac V-8's a 800CFM Q-jet works fine. It is also great for road racing because the float is basically in the center of the carburetor and does not have float drop problems going around curves with high "G" loads quite unlike holley.

Pontiac started using Q jets in 1966, and could have used it on a GTO if they recast the intake for it to fit, but they did not. Pontiac also knew even with modifications the tri-Power 389 made more power.....so for 1967 and the ban on multiple carburetion, Pontiac increased the displacement of the 389 to 400, and the 421 to 427, changed the cylinder head combustion chamber, changed the intake and exhaust valve angle in the head, used larger intake and exhaust valves, changed the intakes on all manifolds to medium rise runners and went to a slightly more aggressive camshaft to make the 1967 GTO with the 400" engine have the same horsepower as the 1966 Tri-Power engine. There have been many road test by High Performance Pontiac and Pontiac Enthusiast magazines where a 400" GTO has had Tri-Power added in comparative testing where the Tri-Power beats a Q-jet time after time.

The reason for the internal ban is pure politics' and it is well documented that Ed Cole did not get along with Bunkie Knudesn ( father of Pontiac Performance) Pete Estes ( the man who actually gave the OK to put a car (GTO) out without corporate approval) and John DeLorean along with Bill Collins and Russ Gee who created the GTO from a LeMans to production. FYI Pontiac's sales manager ( Frank Bridge) hated the car and didn't want to sell it saying the dealers already had enough on their hands with what Pontiac was already offering. It was only when Estes using a little psychological ploy against Bridge's ego ( saying come on Frank I Bet you could sell anything ) did Bridge give in, but the stipulation that there would only be 5,000 cars built was the car released to be built. It wasn't not long afterwards that the dealers and special order customers started placing huge orders for the car that this 5,000 car limit was lifted.

Here ya' go.

Buick used the T-10 for their four speeds in the larger cars.

The car in this video isn't a LeSabre, but it's a Buick with a 4 speed, oh yeah, and the Super Wildcat engine with 3.42 Posi. The fun begins at the 3:20 mark. Love the whine and spacing of the gears.

Here's some info on the 4-speed

Type: Borg-Warner T-10

Ratios 1st: 2.54:1

2nd: 1.89:1

3rd: 1.51:1

4th: 1.00:1

Reverse: 2.61:1

Fourth..... 1.00:1

Third........1.31:1

Second.....1.64:1

First.........2.20:1

Reverse....2.26:1

(Buick Service Manual)

btw, the clutch has got to be really good to get the big cars rolling with that 2.20:1 first gear.

My prefererance is the wider ratio just to get off the line better.

Matt has not been on this site for some time, his handle is "kid4speed" - his dad passed some time ago and Matt is the main man at Kansas Body Works.

Matt and I have some interesting similarities-

4-speed Buick fanatics -both own a bunch of cars several 4-speed Wildcats - I'm 65 guy, he is 64 guy.

both went to Kansas State home of the Wildcats (teams)

We both play bass guitar

We both run our respective family businesses

and we share birthdays on December 2. (Dundundaaaaa)

carry on,

ted

There were TWO sets of gear sets for the T-10s. The first one listed is the "wide-ratio" version, which were for "normal" cars. The second one listed is the "close-ratio" version, which generally came with the highest-peak rpm motors AND rear axle ratios like 4.10s and such. Once the engine was in the "horsepower band", subsequent shifts would not drop the rpm very much so the engine remained at peak power, longer, during the acceleration time . . . whether it was for 1/4 mile drags or road racing.

The 1964 Buick Service Manual I found at www.wildaboutcarsonline.com , in the vehicle specs area of "Service Publications, Service Manual", showed BOTH gearsets, as follows:

4400 LeSabres used the wider-ratio gearset.
4600 Wildcats used the close-ratio gearset, the 2.20 low gear
Now . . . as LeSabre wagons of that year were also 4600 models, might there be a '64 LeSabre 3-seat wagon out there with a 2.20 low gear 4-speed????
More unique cars to chase???

NOW . . . to see if the parts manual supports that information!

NTX5467

There were TWO sets of gear sets for the T-10s. The first one listed is the "wide-ratio" version, which were for "normal" cars. The second one listed is the "close-ratio" version, which generally came with the highest-peak rpm motors AND rear axle ratios like 4.10s and such. Once the engine was in the "horsepower band", subsequent shifts would not drop the rpm very much so the engine remained at peak power, longer, during the acceleration time . . . whether it was for 1/4 mile drags or road racing.

The 1964 Buick Service Manual I found at www.wildaboutcarsonline.com , in the vehicle specs area of "Service Publications, Service Manual", showed BOTH gearsets, as follows:

4400 LeSabres used the wider-ratio gearset.

4600 Wildcats used the close-ration gearset, the 2.20 low gear

Now . . . as LeSabre wagons of that year were also 4600 models, might there be a '64 LeSabre 3-seat wagon out there with a 2.20 low gear 4-speed????

More unique cars to chase???

NOW . . . to see if the parts manual supports that information!

NTX5467

yes, when looking at the Production Reports for 4600 chassis there is a 4-speed dual quad wagon and a couple more 4- speed wagons. I'll check out these reports and let you know.

Now . . . as LeSabre wagons of that year were also 4600 models, might there be a '64 LeSabre 3-seat wagon out there with a 2.20 low gear 4-speed????

More unique cars to chase???

NOW . . . to see if the parts manual supports that information!

NTX5467

If it comes with bucket seats, I'm a buyer.

Ed, I'm not aware of any 64 bucket seat wagons, but there were

7 4-speed -2 seat wagons

7 4-speed -3 seat wagons

Last year I purchased a Super Wildcat 64 LeSabre Wagon- 2-seater- they made 56 of them that way and 38 Super Wildcat 3-seater.

I love GM in the 60's-

There is a site that has showroom information on lots of cars.  

http://www.lov2xlr8.no/broch1.html

Knowing these are not always correct,   these indicate that the 1959 LeSabre was standard with a 3 speed,   '60, '61, '62, '63, '64 all show the automatic standard,  the '65 Wildcat was available with a 4 speed.

P

There were TWO sets of gear sets for the T-10s. The first one listed is the "wide-ratio" version, which were for "normal" cars. The second one listed is the "close-ratio" version, which generally came with the highest-peak rpm motors AND rear axle ratios like 4.10s and such. Once the engine was in the "horsepower band", subsequent shifts would not drop the rpm very much so the engine remained at peak power, longer, during the acceleration time . . . whether it was for 1/4 mile drags or road racing.

The 1964 Buick Service Manual I found at www.wildaboutcarsonline.com , in the vehicle specs area of "Service Publications, Service Manual", showed BOTH gearsets, as follows:

4400 LeSabres used the wider-ratio gearset.

4600 Wildcats used the close-ratio gearset, the 2.20 low gear

Now . . . as LeSabre wagons of that year were also 4600 models, might there be a '64 LeSabre 3-seat wagon out there with a 2.20 low gear 4-speed????

More unique cars to chase???

NOW . . . to see if the parts manual supports that information!

NTX5467

 

Don't know about Buick's availability, but for Pontiac you could order the close ratio or wide ratio T-10 with a aluminum case for drag racing. 

For Buick

Close ratio for big engines

Wide ratio for small blocks.

That video of the 4-speed LeSabre sounds remarkably like Mr. Bernard...right end of the continent for him to have made that fancy footwear fashion statement.

^{I searched Ward's Yearbook today for information on full size Buicks with 4 speeds.}

^{Their information did not tell what model just the percent of total full size Buick production.}

^{They show nothing in 1963,   in '64 they show .2% of 325,978 = 652}

^{for '65 they show .1%  of 304208 for a total of 330..... nothing for '66}

The first 57 Vettes weren't available with the 4-speed, that was offered later in the production year.

OH, by the way it ISN'T SAGANAW, it's SAGINAW. I lived there, and have several Saginaw Gear friends.

Dale in Indy

Photo attached of page from Ward's Yearbook showing production options for vehicles,  Buick is in the middle.   I hope it is large enough to read.

From the Daily Car Reports from Buick 

Model 4600

1963  -  option A7  -  346

1964                         623

1965                         466

Real Buick data!  

This forum has a 60 2 door Buick with three pedals.  Forum started stated it was a manual.  3 Speed. Was a 3 speed common?

http://www.v8buick.com/archive/index.php/t-204392.html

My guess is the % is about the same as later years- I know Mr 60 Mitchell L. Has a wagon with 3 on the tree...

I thought 63 was first year for a 4 spd in a Buick.  Special might have been available with one in 62.  All 62 full size were Automatics. A guy in our chapter has a 85 Wildcat 4dr with a 4 speed.  I've also heard of wagons with 4 speeds.

I found a thread in the Olds forums about large-car Olds with factory 4-speeds.  It's quite interesting!

One cowl tag identifier of the factory 4-speed big cars is the "2L" stamp.  There are several pictures of cowl tags with that code on factory 4-speed cars.  It appears they all used the 2.54-low gear ratio gearsets.

Y'all might check it out.

NTX5467