How fast does an antique car go?

[sillyquestion]

I have a photo of my husband's great grandfather circa 1917 with an old car. How fast did it usually go? I just want an average number. Like today it would be 55-65 mph.

TIA

R

[Steve Moskowitz]

Not sure what you need this info for so it is somewhat tough to answer. In the early years there were cars that had a wide range of horsepower. You had cars that could go today's speeds if you were crazy enough to drive them at that rate. Additionally, quality highways were still almost non-existent.

A <span style="font-weight: bold">somewhat general statement</span> would be that the average comfortable <span style="font-weight: bold">top</span> speed would be in the 45 MPH although there were cars that easily could exceed this number.

I read your post to quick!! The other posts are certainly right on the money, on todays roads some of these cars can go faster but handling and braking are still problematic. Your grandfather's car may not have been a high horsepower car and certainly the 30 MPH figure is in the right range although it may have actually traveled at lower speeds due to the roads. How about attaching a picture and then we can tell you the actual speed ranges of his car?

[Jay Wolf]

My 1916 Elgin even on a flat smooth road you would never exceed 30 mph

(timed with a GPS) unless you had a death wish.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

In 1917, there weren't many ( if any places) in this country where one could drive much faster than 30 MPH - the roads simply wouldn't permit it...(I'm sure other readers will post some exceptions)

Racetracks like Indianpolis were paved with bricks, or wooden boards, or races were held on flat, smooth beaches such as Daytona or Ormond Beach, in Florida.

There were no (?) long, straight, smooth paved highways like we're used to today; the majority of "modern paved roads" being built in the 1930's through New Deal public works projects, like the WPA.

All of which is to say, the top-speed of Great-grandad's car was limited as much by the roads where he lived, as by the make and size of the car itself...

In 1917, most car-owners of moderate income probably had a Model T Ford, or similar small four-cylinder car ( Chevrolet, Dodge Bros., Overland, etc)... all of which had flat-out top-speeds of around 40 to 45 MPH (at least as they came fro

m the factory)

Larger, more powerful cars such as Buicks, Packards, Cadillacs, Locomobiles, and the like could go quite a bit faster - upwards of 50-60 MPH; "muscle-cars" of the day, like the Stutz Bearcat or Mercer Raceabout could achieve speeds of 70 MPH or more... but in that era, about the only places cars went that fast were on the race-track...

Another limiting factor of the era were the braking systems of those cars: usually mechanical brakes operating on only the rear wheels...

If you get to catch Jay Leno on "My Classic Car" or his own website: "www.jaylenosgarage.com"

(where you can watch video interviews of Jay featuring various antique vehicles in his extensive collection), if he's talking about cars such as his 1912 Baker Electric, 1924 Ace motorcycle, or one of his Stanley Steamers, he will usually make a comment about them having "no brakes"(each interview usually involves a road-test of the subject vehicle <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)... he's referring to the minimal stopping ability of these early cars... but in the days before the Depression, there were fewer cars on the road, and most folks travelled at speeds under 40 MPH... so those early brakes were "adequate" for the time...

It was a whole different world then... life moved a whole lot slower... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Cool question... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Ivan Saxton]

It is not a silly question. It is an interesting question, and there are many answers in different circumstances. I will pass on what I reliably know, and I hope there are a lot of other people who can inform us. There are different answers for standard antique cars, modified cars, and cars that were not necessarily capable of very high speed or rapid acceleration, but would cover extraordinary distances on the road in given time.

The Lozier in which Ralph Mulford won 2nd place in the first Indianapolis 500 was very much a standard production car. His average speed was not much slower Than Ray Harroun's Marmon Wasp racing car at 74.59mph for the 500miles, but the Lozier had a lot more tyre trouble.

In 1914 a big Packard 6 series 5-48 averaged 70.447mph for an hour solo run at Indianapolis Speedway. The Twin Sixes were certainly faster, and would have been much faster if they had been geared for our roads and driving habits today, rather than the custom then of doing most of the driving in top gear only.

A couple of years later a stripped special Hudson Super six achieved a much higher speed, but as I cannot find my reference, one of the Hudson fraternity will have to give you the details. Standard Hudsons were pretty good, but nowhere near as slippery.

In the late 1960's Ray Wolff managed to contact George Scoblic, who was a test driver of the L-head Mercers after the War. Ray sent me copy of his comments at the time. The fastest Raceabouts would do 90 mph. Other body types wouldn not go so well in proportion. Ralph Buckley told me they put the best engines in Raceabouts, then Sportings, then Runabouts, Tourings, and sedans; while the worst engines went into cars to be sent to South America. My 1918 Series 4 Mercer Sporting once covered a standing 1/4 mile in a Vintage Driver's Club competition in Melbourne in a shade under 23 seconds. At the end of the course they also had a police speed measuring device working, and the Mercer was doing just over 62mph there.

Jerry Gebby, who owned and serviced Mercers, told me that the 6 cylinder ones were the best of all to drive. One of my friends here, went over to help John Boyle from NJ put his very late 4 wheel brake Mercer 6 Raceabout back on the road. I have been told that he has been through police radar at over 100mph; and if this is correct your police must take a much more relaxed view than ours of speed infringements.

Ralph Buckley told me that one of his friends or customers had a very good L-head Raceabout, and wanted to see if it would do 100mph. He took it to what he said was a ?turnpike? somewhere in NY or adjacent state which had a good stretch of road . He opened it out on a long downhill section while his wife held the camera on the speedo. It never quite registered 100, so she never took a photo. (Of course, the most exact way to prove maximum speed today is a radar speed ticket, but that can be expensive. Speedos are never that accurate).

In April 1921, Roamer had a stock Roamer-Duesenberg driven down to Daytona Beach for a series of stock record attempts. Apparently the technical chief of AAA virtually camped in the factory while they built it, to certify that it had exactly the same treatment as every other car in the line. The previous year Paige ran a ring-in that was accredited with a mile at 103. This car survived in Australia for 50 or so years; and I went to school with the man who owned and restored it. He told me the engine had either "X" or "EX" cast on it, and it had a 6 litre engine whereas the stock engines were 5 litre. Well, I have somewhere a photocopy of a photograph of the AAA certificate which apparently was supplied with my Roamer-Duesenberg when Sir Eric Scott ordered it out of a catalogue to try and set a new Adelaide/Melbourne record in 1923. The certificate showed a flying mile in 34.25 seconds, which is 105.15mph. Knowing the torque and performance the car has when I drive people round on the property here I can well believe that. There is no way I will take it on the road until I have engineered a set of really good 4 wheel brakes , using a front axle I have which will take BB Stutz stub axles and brakes, and better on the back as well. It would be too lethal in today?s traffic. (I will only make reversible, non-destructive alterations on any car, and only when it is really necessary).

When Alan Powell from Melbourne bought his A model Duesenberg from the factory in 1923 when he was 23, he requested the highest compression ratio and the fastest rear axle gearing they would give him. I met him sixty years later at his workplace in the city, and I asked questions based on Fred Roe?s book on Duesenberg, which was not on the shelves here yet, just to see how reliable his memory was. It was faultless. His number was still listed in the phone book till he was 100. Duesenberg estimated his car would be ready in 6 weeks, but contacted him in five. They gave him a certificate that it had been timed at the Speedway at 106mph, and I understand the present owner has that. If the measurement was based on lap time it may have been a cheat; because when Fred Duesenberg took him for a high speed ride on the speedway he kept the inner wheels in the gutter, which was smoother than the bricks.

In the early 1980?s Ray Wolff persuaded me to buy from his Mexican friend a 1922 A Duesenberg which had been shortened into a racing car in 1938. Manuel Yglesias Davalos told me that when he raced the car, it was timed for a flying kilometre at 106mph. Same figure, but this one has sedan gearing, but was lightened and shortened.

I always used to despise T Fords, but I now understand how well they suited their intended purpose. I also have started to build a speedster with some good bits. If you value your own wellbeing, your have to re-engineer so you have safe brakes and handling. But you can have a lot of fun at modest cost. The original T engine, for the weight of the car was like a railway cup of tea, - big and weak. It is quite feasible to get enough extra out of one to provide 150hp per ton of vehicle weight, and a car like this is very impatient. The Vintage Drivers? Club in Melbourne during the last 50 years have run a lot of hillclimb and quarter-mile sprint competitions. At one of the latter, two of my Cadillac friends were spectators at the start. For extra interest the cars were run in pairs, and Norm McCubbin?s 8-valve Rajo T Ford speedster was paired with a 30/98 Vauxhall. Cliff Rees said to Bob Craddock ?I didn?t see that!? Bob replied ?No, I didn?t see it either!? The T speedster streeted the Vauxhall. They did a re-run, with exactly the same result.

At the 1923 Indianapolis 500, a Frontenac ?Ford was beaten into fifth place by four straight 8 Millers. Its average for the entire distance was just under 83mph. The winner, Tommy Milton, was offered a supply of tetraethyl lead for the race by Charles Kettering, which enabled him to

raise his compression ratio by 1 ½ units. It is likely that others among the first few place-getters also were given the same dope, but maybe not Corum for the Fronty Ford.

The Italian Lancia, from the very first car they build 100years ago, have always made cars that were capable of high average speeds over distance, despite mostly having modest engine size and top speed. The Lambda model of 1922 had just over 2litres engine capacity, strong and rigid chassis/body construction pillar-type independent front suspension which incorporated hydraulic dampers, and excellent four wheel brakes. They could comfortably accomplish travel times on indifferent roads of the twenties that were unthinkable in most cars. One of my few really modern cars, which many participants in this forum would probably regard as Antique, is a 1953 Lancia Aurelia saloon. I used to go to a dentist in Melbourne, our state capital, and at least twice I was surprised that I entered his waiting room 70 minutes after I drove out the gate here. Distance is 70 miles. I wasn?t hurrying, and the speedo is not that far out. The acceleration, and brakes, and handling are such that you spend so little time below your cruising speed. Aurelia was a family saloon built with current Grand Prix technology at the time.

I suppose if you want to know how fast old cars are it probably means you are more interested in driving than restored beauty contests. The Vintage Drivers Club in Melbourne have long distance overland tours , such as to central Australia. They travel together and camp, and if there is any mechanical failure there is always someone competent to help. When I first was a member you might see Bentley, Austro-Daimler, Isotta-Fraschini, Stutz, Cadillac, Sunbeam, Stoewer, Steyr, and Velie at monthly evening meetings. On one of their long tours you might now expect Ford A, Chrysler, Dodge, Buick or Oldsmobile; and if you don?t drive at 60 you will fall behind.

Ivan Saxton

[jrbartlett]

What a great post. I have a 1919 Locomobile Sportif that will easily cruise at 55 MPH, and some of the other owners of these cars, most notably Phil Hill, can run 70 MPH with their cars due to installation of high-speed ring gears and pinions. I have a Phil Hill gearset for my car, but it has not been installed yet.

When I bought my car last month, the seller took me for a ride down a shell road at about 15 MPH and said, "This is probably the sort of road and speed that this car saw when it was new."

[Guest leadfoot]

I have a 1923 Dodge, which is not much advanced from the late teens cars. Flat out it will cruise at about 35 MPH on today's smooth secondary streets. On any rougher roads the handling is tough at even 30 MPH because of the high pressure tires (32 x 4 @ 55 lbs.), no shock absorbers, high center of gravity, and rear wheel only brakes. Imagine what it was like back in the '20s on the cobble stone streets in larger cities and the mostly unpaved rural roads. It's a relatively easy car to drive, but I believe that back then you really had to pay attention to traffic/road conditions or you could easily have been in the ditch.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Ivan,Please let us know when you are coming to the States.I think i could listen to your stories the rest of my life.I'll buy the Fosters OR whatever it takes to keep YOUR lips moving and MY ears at attention.Take Care.diz <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[R W Burgess]

Right on Dizz! I'd like to meet Ivan myself. He's always a fascinating read. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Mark Shaw]

How fast you can stop is more important than how fast you can go. My 13 model 31 Buick can do 55 mph with aluminum pistons and a BB1 carb as the only modifications from original.

However, I never drive over 45 mph due to stopping limitations with brakes on only two 4" wide tires.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on Dizz! I'd like to meet Ivan myself. He's always a fascinating read. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wayne </div></div>

This is one of the benifits of the Forum! I'd guess 1% or less of the AACA membership gets to read & enjoy Ivans posts, sure would be nice to see them in print in Antique Autoimobile. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[R W Burgess]

Bob, Ivan needs to write a book, soonest!!!!

Way too much good material to not be published.

Wayne

[Guest Fr Mike]

Adding a couple of pennies to this interesting thread, I had a 100% stock Model T runabout made in January of 1920, that I had bought for $10, and had just finished restoring---that was clocked at 65 by a friend in his Cord. Doing this was, of course, absolutely insane, considering all the things that could have happened! but, at age 16, I was suffering from adolescence and "had to do it." There was no noticeable harm to the car, and it operated reliably and well for some time afterward.

Now, definitely older and somewhat wiser, I would never think of driving my '31 Buick or my '36 Plymouth over 50-55 mph, even though the speedometer reads up to 90.

[Ivan Saxton]

Let us consider the Dodge four. I have often seen them on the road, and I know they do vibrate a bit in their natural state. If you want to drive one at the sort of speed they are capable of, first you have to make sure the brakes, steering, springs, wheels, tyres, and axles are as they should be. Beyond that you have to decide whether you make fairly basic improvements that do not alter the character of the car except for getting rid of most of the vibration. Some people do take their improvement further than that, and I guess you could argue that what the car was like originally has some value.

Looking at the main technical specifications for Dodge in the Show issue of MoToR for Jan 1921, the engine is listed as having output of 40bhp @2000rpm. This is twice the enthusiasm of a T Ford of the same era in its natural state, for slightly greater capacity. Rear axle ratio is listed as 3.17, and the tyre size everyone has to use here is 500x24, which is near enough 34" diameter. Now using the formula from Phil Irving's book Automobile Engine Tuning

rpm x tyre diam = mph x gear ratio x 336, at 2000 rpm the car should be doing a shade over 60mph (63.8) People do drive them this fast here, which means they have probably taken the shake out of them. I asked John Davis last night, because I knew he had worked on some for other people. Quite recently he had won a hillclimb driving a Dodge for Cled Davies of Bendigo; and John said that one runs out to 4500rpm, which is over twice what the good brothers originally intended. You must bear in mind that Dodge 4 is considerably more rugged that T Ford down below. Henry Formby used Dodge conrods in his 1912 Cadillac for many years with aluminium pistons, and he used to cruise that at 50mph or more. (It is the hinged Cadillac rods that are problematical, and GM obviously knew that and were worried and counselled Ken Moss about the risk when he drove his 1912 up Pike's Peak when he shipped it to California and drove it most of the way across your country and back in the early 1960's. Ken assured them that it would be right; but he didn't tell them he knew it would be right because he was running International Black Diamond conrods in it.)

Obviously if you want Dodge to run smoothly you start by balancing crankshaft, flywheel, rods and pistons, then you do the same to wheels, tyres, and brake drums. Very few makers thought about wheel balancing early on. Mercer did. Look at the period photo of a T-head raceabout on p183 of Ralph Stein's book "Great American Automobiles". There are five rim bolts irregularly paced on each wheel. Ralph Buckley told me this was done for balancing. I dont know the first thing about judging, or restoring cars for judging, so I am not prepared to express any opinion on whether you should dock points because someone has known better than Finley Robertson Porter.

I wonder how many owners fitted aftermarket shock absorbers on Dodge?

Dodge had gearbox problems if you want to drive them any great distance. Most gearboxes rely on the layshaft to maintain lubrication of the gearbox. Dodge apparently decided the cars would run better and more economically if the layshaft did not turn in top gear, and they would rely on hope and distant memory for lubrication. I understand that people here replace the little roller bearings with scintered bronze bushings, and slow right down every fifteen or twenty miles to run for a little in second to re-oil everything.

If a Dodge wont do more than 30-35mph you probably need to look very carefully at ignition, valves/camshaft wear, and that Stewart carburettor, which may be a dog. Funny, some previous owner had fitted one onto the 1918 Mercer, but I never attempted to run it. If I had left that on it could never have done half an hour in twenty minutes.

Brakes: I cannot find Ken Purdy's book "Kings of the Road this minute, but I know he described Mercer Raceabout brakes by advising that you pay strict attention to the countryside ahead. (When Ralph Buckley insisted that I drive his T-head Raceabout, he instructed me not to use the foot-pedal transmission brake. The story of how this came about you might enjoy, but it is out of context here).

Brakes of most early cars are limited by steel brake drums, and the linings which you have to use with them. Fortunately you can do a great deal to increase their effectiveness without compromising the original appearance. I recall a Dodge 4 brake drum with a bg bolt operated by a chord, which was used as a gong in our timber mill so the planer operator could signal the boiler man that he wanted the steam engine started or stopped. These external contracting foot brakes have a problem of their own that in the wet, they only work at all only after long and careful thought. The rim of the drum also deforms when it wears thin. Several decades ago the State Electricity Commision had some big Mercedes wheel tractors in the power station open cut coal mine. It was very abrasive where they worked, and the brake discs lasted mere weeks. On one occasion there were no replacements in the country, so as they had Metco wire feed metal spray equipment, they rebuit the worn discs with Metco Spraysteel LS. If they had to replace those discs again it was after a very long time. The coating is a work-hardening carbon steel with about 7% molybdenum content, and has similar braking characteristics to cast iron. It is compatible with modern lining material. To get rid of the water you cut a series of grooves in the lining at 45 degrees, a couple of inches apart. Do not worry about the big diameter narrow tyres. The footprint on the ground is long. Remember that A model Duesenberg and straight 8 Stutz could stop from 30mph in 30feet, and from 50mph in 86 feet. In TV road safety ads here they dont claim anything like this, despite 60 years advance in tyre compound, road surface,brakes, and suspension.

Some people with external contracting footbrakes alter them slighty so the internal handbrake is simultaneously activated. I understand this improves the brake effectiveness because the drum is squeezed like a disc brake. And if you doubt the application as a proper use for a metal coating

you are welcome to disagree with me; but please be consistent and never, ever fly in a jet airliner.

Their engines would not function long without Metco or similar surface coatings.

Ivan Saxton

[mrpushbutton]

hitting the brakes on a pre-1930's car is like sending a purchase req to the front office for approval--you'll get results, but not right away.

[Ivan Saxton]

That is a good comparison: But you really can do something about it which even the trained eye will not detect. I have rebuilt a lot of drums for people over the years, and even front discs for such an unlikely modern import as a Buick Riviera. One man talked me into rebuilding the rear drums of a little English car called a Perry, which I was not keen about because you could just see daylight where one of the two sets of parallel shoes ran. The drums were integral with the hubs, and for various reasons it would have been difficult to make new ones. I asked Barry why they were so worn, and he said it was the cast iron linings. I said, "You are going to use modern linings, aren't you?"

About 8 years later I ran into him at Bendigo Swap, and he said "Oh, we had the back end of the Perry apart the other week, and the drums are perfect! And it is the only car in the Veteran Car Club with cast iron brakes that work properly." I said, "Barry, you told me you were going to use modern linings." He said "I did. Modern cast iron." Spraysteel LS really is a very useful coating material. Stephen Hands was a Metco field engineer, and when he wanted to make front brakes for his bull-nose Morris he had drums cast in good aluminium alloy, and sprayed LS inside for the working surface. That made better drums than you could do any other way; excellent brake characteristics, excellent heat dispersal, and low added unsprung weight.

[ply33]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. . .One man talked me into rebuilding the rear drums of a little English car called a Perry, which I was not keen about because you could just see daylight where one of the two sets of parallel shoes ran. The drums were integral with the hubs, and for various reasons it would have been difficult to make new ones. I asked Barry why they were so worn, and he said it was the cast iron linings. I said, "You are going to use modern linings, aren't you?"

About 8 years later I ran into him at Bendigo Swap, and he said "Oh, we had the back end of the Perry apart the other week, and the drums are perfect! And it is the only car in the Veteran Car Club with cast iron brakes that work properly." I said, "Barry, you told me you were going to use modern linings." He said "I did. Modern cast iron." Spraysteel LS really is a very useful coating material. Stephen Hands was a Metco field engineer, and when he wanted to make front brakes for his bull-nose Morris he had drums cast in good aluminium alloy, and sprayed LS inside for the working surface. That made better drums than you could do any other way; excellent brake characteristics, excellent heat dispersal, and low added unsprung weight. </div></div>

The drums on my are are "centrifuse" (steel with a cast iron liner). It turns out the company that made those for Chrysler is still in business but only make that type of drum for very large trucks.

I have long thought that I could use metal spray to to return the brake drums to standard size. But I have gotten very negative feedback when I made inquiries. The places that did metal spraying did not want to touch brake components (I think for fear of liability). Everyone else wants to press in sleeves (which for a variety of reasons I have my doubts about).

Is this "Spraysteel LS" a metal spray type of application? Is it available in the U.S.?

I assume from your spelling of aluminum and reference to Bendigo that you are in Australia. I am not sure if suppliers there would translate to ones in the U.S. but thought it might be worth asking.

[Ivan Saxton]

Yes, Metco has been a manufacturer of metal spray equipment/systems and materials for very many decades, and Spraysteel LS (for "low shrink") is one of their materials. Yes, I am in Australia.

I have rebuilt a lot of brake drums for people over the years. I understand from Stephen Hands that there is or was a company called Safety Brakes in Adelaide, which used one of Metco's powder material systems, and used so much of the particular powder that they had a special price which made it viable. I dont know if there was significant difference in coating composition. I suspect they may have had a nozzle which sprayed at an angle, which does not work with a wire fed through the oxy acetylene flame. And I never went looking for this work, because of the heat reflected back on my hands. The preparation involves degreasing, premachining to produce a threaded surface for extra grip, grit blasting to etch the surface, and then a bond coat of nickel aluminide (Metco 405). I have regularly used coating thickness of up to 3/16". The main thing I found I had to avoid was any vibration or chattering during machining, because that causes work-hardening, and you may have to resort to grinding. Metco was owned by Perkin Elmer for a long time, but has changed hands fairly recently. Easiest way to locate someone who would do your job is to contact Metco. They always had Field Engineers who moved around among the people who used their systems. If you really get stuck I suppose I can do it for you, but the freight two way would be a discouragement. And it does use a lot of acetylene, which is expensive now. It would best be done by someone with Metco arc-spraying equipment, because using twin wire feed, it si much faster, and you dont need oxy and acetylene. I never like to do work for people if they can get it done more economically elsewhere.

Ivan Saxton

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here are some statistics on average car speed, taken from an article in Popular Science Monthly, February 1930. I just came across this article:

"In 1910 the average speed on improved highways was about 20 miles an hour. It increased about one mile an hour each year till 1928, when it reached about 38 miles an hour. In that year, the Ford 'Model A' started skimming along the roads and it is anybody's guess what the average speed is today."

"But speed is not necessarily danger. 'A 50-mile touring speed,' says Alvan Macauley, President of the Packard company, 'is safer today [1930] than 35 or 40 miles an hour was ten years ago [1920].' Improvements in motor, brake mechanism, body strength, and visibility are responsible for the new safety."

I think it's always interesting to read first-hand accounts of history, written by the people who were actually there. If a modern magazine wrote about the same topic, it would be fine, but these people had current first-hand experience driving the roads of the day in the 'Teens and 'Twenties cars. The article, by the way, is titled, "Shall Speed Laws be Abolished?" and is an analysis of how to make roads safer. In addition to appearing in Popular Science Monthly, it was reprinted in the March 1930 Reader's Digest, of which I have a copy.