mastertech Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I work in a chrysler dealership have been since 1969, have seen cars change from simple easy to fix to complex computers on wheels. Most cars now days have anywhere from atleast 1 to 39 differnt computers on board. How is the average guy say in 25-30 years going to be able to restore one this cars? as most parts will only work on one car, cant swap electronics without big problems(junk yard parts are no out of the question) are these part going to be around? Is there going to be someone able to check these parts as most of the diag equiptment is very expensive and the adverage guy isnt going to be able to afford them. or is the old car hobby going to slowly die out? What is really going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Wolk Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'm kind of in that dilemma myself. I have a 1988 12-cylinder BMW. It currently has 77,000 miles on it. I've babied it since new because it's the ultimate sleeper and I really wanted to keep it. My dashboard started acting funny after the battery went dead and needed to be charged. The charge must have messed something up because the digital dash would switch back and forth between German and English. Then it read out in Sandscrit or someting unintelligible to me. A remanufactured (read repaired) circuit board was $1,000. If the demand is there, there is an army of geeks (I use the word affectionately) who will have the skills to repair the computers. However, I'm told that there is 29 miles of wire (including all relays) in that car making it enormously complicated to troubleshoot. That could be the death knoll of newer cars.Personally, I don't see a lot of today's cars that are really collectible. Well, maybe a couple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 While I understand your concern, I think that the old car hobby will continue. The pre-computer cars will continue to be restored and will probably go up in value. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Model A's and Mustangs (just two examples) were both produced in large numbers. So, there are relatively lots of parts out there for them. For the parts that are not available, if the desire to restore the car is there, aftermarket parts producers will fill the need. Tomorrow's restorer will find a similar situation with the Ford Taurus. It has just recently become part of history as it it no longer being produced. There are lots of them out there and eventually the list of easily collectible Fords will go from Model A's, and Mustangs to Model A's, Mustangs and Tauruses. (I realize that this is not an all inclusive list, but just using it as an example... so don't flame me... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)While it is certainly simpler to produce replacement metal parts, replacement plastic parts and replacement computer boards will be eventually be part of the future of the old car hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 The old car hobby will never die, but it is in for a major revision. <span style="font-style: italic">Collecting</span> cars will always be, but <span style="font-style: italic">restoring</span> them will soon fade from memory. Imagine trying to do a ground-up restoration of Barry's BMW. 29 miles of wiring, dozens of circut boards unique to the model/year/option content/sale destination/etc., scores if not hundreds of decals to be reproduced, and a hundred other headaches.I believe that the hobby will soon consist of mainly HPOF-type cars. Fortunately better materials and manufacturing techniques will allow for much better survivability of these cars (except for most models of the 1975-1990 years). So while there may be a more limited supply of old cars, most of which can't be improved upon in many ways, that supply will be of better quality than most of us are used to picking from.And as for expensive diagnostic equipment, most of that will be outsourced as complicated pieces always have. How many rebuild their own Turboglide or Z-F transaxle? There's a national market of specialist rebuilders and repair shops for them, and there will be for ECMs and ABS units in the future as well. They won't be on every corner, but Fed-Ex Ground will still exist. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_steve Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Interesting thread.Another thing I see happening in the not too distant future is the inability of regular backyard hobbyists to be able to purchase things like paints, primers, and related solvents/reducers, due to increasing environmental beaurocracies. Only "licensed, certified" shops will be able to obtain those materials, and so the days of guys like me who like to do a little painting project here and there on occasion will have to take our parts to some shop and not only pay big bucks to get parts painted (not to mention having taxes going up since more government inspectors to go around and certify/police such shops will need to be hired--gotta admire beaurocrats, they do protect their own), but also lose the joy and satisfaction of doing it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Green Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Having just went through replacement of 2 wiring harnesses and the repair of another in my wife's car I tend to agree with the technician (formerly call a mechanic), "the new vehicles with minimal maintenance will easily run over 200K miles however when the wiring and electronics start to go it is time to junk them." Of course that didn't convince the wife who likes the car.I personally don't see many of today's jellybean cars being future collectibles however there are a few exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aanderson44 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having just went through replacement of 2 wiring harnesses and the repair of another in my wife's car I tend to agree with the technician (formerly call a mechanic), "the new vehicles with minimal maintenance will easily run over 200K miles however when the wiring and electronics start to go it is time to junk them." Of course that didn't convince the wife who likes the car.I personally don't see many of today's jellybean cars being future collectibles however there are a few exceptions. </div></div>Ron, You know, I find it just a bit humorous that you would say that, considering that the very same thing was said, in writing, in The Restorer (Model A Ford Club of America) in late 1969! The then-President of MAFCA went on record, saying in his monthly editorial, that nobody, NOBODY would ever be able to restore a car from the 1950's, with its "pot metal" carburetor, complex and unmanageable automatic transmission, tin-foil body, and heat-stitched vinyl upholstery. I wonder if he's still living, and if so, did he have his words in that editorial served up as broiled, fried, fricassee'd, or simply nuked in the microwave, for dinner? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />Art Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastertech Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 I would say nuked in the microwave i would say.maybe we dont see todays jellybean car as collectable but what about the youth of today? they may see something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Well, even if we still collect and restore cars twenty years plus from now, what will we run them on ? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />It's more than just our beloved hobby that's in for a "revision"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'll be the heretic here. I currently have five OBD I or OBD II cars so I finally broke down and bought an OTC Genysis test unit on ebay. Note that the Genysis is not just a code reader but has bidirectional test capacity, just like the factory testers. It cost me about $600 used (plus software updates as I get newer cars), but I now have the ability to read everything going on in the electronic systems of these cars. I can also monitor every possible parameter while I drive and even save a snapshot of an intermittent problem. Combined with a factory service manual, it turns out that troubleshooting is much easier than before.There are also less expensive shareware programs that can run on a laptop; you just need to buy the appropriate interface cable to plug into your car. I have several friends who are using these tools to reprogram their car computers to make the most of performance upgrades such as cams, headers, etc. For example, if you want to turn up the idle speed, just a few keystrokes and it's done.Contrary to popular belief, many of the electronic components ARE common to a lot of cars (particularly on GMs). For example, virtually all of the OBD I throttle body injected GM vehicles use the same computer - only the memory chip is changed for the specific installation. Same for the sensors, coil packs, etc.Do it right and you can change your fuel map, get more performance, then download the original map when it's time for an emissions test - all without getting your hands dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Who cares? Really, if you have a non running 2010 Whatever next to a nonrunning 1910 Chaindrive 50HP Whatisit what is the differance? If they both look good people will collect them. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastertech Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 but i have a henway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Hey MasterTech, what's a Henway? (I know the answer; once while doing an engineering study, I had a report that talked about a "manway" in a tank; this was in the pre-computer days, and my secretary was typing the report; she asked, "Gee, David, what's a manway?"Recently my wife and I saw a really nice looking Jaguar. Had a price of $5000 or so. Drove by. Saw it again in the owner's yard, got the phone number, called. "How much?". "$1000". "What?" "We were asking more, it has new paint, new tires, recently serviced, runs great". "Uh, did I hear you right, $1000?". "Yes. We have much more in restoring it. The electronic dash does not work, we cannot get anyone to work on it for a reasonable price, we just want to get rid of the car.". We passed on buying it. Electronics, plastic; tough restoration problems.Happy motoring! David Coco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957Birdman Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I believe the old car hobby will be sustained by the continuing interest in the older cars from the 1910's through the 1980's. I think after that newer cars will be less desirable, with the exception of cars like the Mazda Miata, which is also pretty easy to work on, compared to other newer cars. The popular sedans of our day are more like appliances and will hardly set anyone's heart pounding, in my opinion. Who can imagine a line of silver Toyota Camrys at a car show?I think the more worrisome issue is the future availabilty of gasoline. As we transition to alternative fuels there will be less and less available. I don't have a crystal ball to figure out a timetable for this, but obviously gasoline it the lifeblood of most all antique cars (with the exception of Stanley Steamers and electrics). I would hope that gasoline will be available for the forseeable future, or the whole face of the hobby will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastertech Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 working for a chrysler dealership we have no alternative cars to speak of we have flex fuel cars and vans but the fuel milage on them stink, most cars we have average 17-30 mpg. although my wife has a 2007 dodge caliber and it gets aroung town appx 32-36mpg. but you are right what is restoring the cars if fuel is no longer to be found all the electonics in the world wont make a gas engine run. how about a flux capatatior?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I tend to agree with Aanderson44. WHO really knows if the original 29 miles of wire is really in a BMW resto or not??? And even if a detailed visiual inspection is done how does anyone know if they are in live or just phonies for originality??? My point is that by the time 20-25 years go by there will be ways and means to circumvent the electronics by easier and probably cheaper means. We see a great deal of it today with MSD e-ignition conversions and so-forth. If one man can build it another man can break it, fix it or change it. All it takes is a little bit of knowledge and alot of patience. Those with neither usualy give up on cars very quickly and resign themselves to stamp collecting or the sofa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pakkrat Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 This topic is fun to talk about, but changes we talk about happen so slowly that you don't really notice. Kinda like when an old man tells you "well, we use to do this or that....". They had to deal with new technologies and so will the young'uns. We all change (some more than others) with the times. I used to think I'd never understand a turbo system or fuel inj. but now that it is so commonplace, I understand and am looking forward to my first blow thru turbo motor build. I never thought I could understand a wiring dia. for a car, but I completely rewired my 60 Buick this year. (I know it's not the same as today's cars.) The more I looked and studied my factory manuals, the more comfortable and easy it came to be. Whatever fuel, whatever switch, whatever lever or gear, whatever material, be it steel or admantium, we will become comfortable with and use. But I will say this, I'll buy my kind of cars, the rest of you can start buying up those Tauruses!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Thanks joe_padavano for your short modern electronics explanation and update. Something i really need to become more familiar with myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 ive always thought about what will we do to fuel our old cars in the future, but a few months ago i read an article in Motor Trend about these guys: http://www.changingworldtech.com/what/index.aspstop worrying, its all good. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sparky65 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I agree that cars are getting more and more complicated with all the drive by wire stuff but i dont think the hobby will die. If there is a demand for repro parts for a certian car i am sure that they will be pumping out reproduction computers and wirring harnesses. For my mustang all the wirring is reproduced so i think the same will happen with new cars. Most computers and other electronics for a given model are the same so as long as the software doesnt disapear they should be able to reproduces those or at least referbish them. I know that a lot of electronics chips and such become obsolete very fast but what stops them from redesigning the whole thing with newer components and fitting it in the same pacage. you may even end up with a car that was better then new. I also think you will be able to cut more corners with a restoration on a newer car. I mean would you dare try to repair your air bag system. You could leave the wirring in but the rest of the system cant be seen any way so why mess with it. As far as fuel goes i think we have a long way to go before we run out but the cost of fuel may force us to drive them less and less. And as newer cars move to alternative fuels it may become harder to find gas but its not going to go away. Paint may definatly become a problem for those of us that like to do things our selves. Paint cost has already gone through the roof and some types are not avalible. However i am sure with the internet we will be able to buy paint from foriegn distributers and paint our cars in our own garages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Green Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Art,You are right at how things were viewed in 69 in regards to the 50's cars being restored. By the time today's vehicles are considered collectable someone will have probably invented a computer box that can be programmed to do all. The difference is there are many more complex items, more parts with manufactures and dealers not stocking near as many parts on the shelf, etc. One has to wonder if the desire and market will be there to restore today's mundane vehicles less the tuner cars, mustangs, corvettes, etc. Up until the 70's you could at least tell the difference between brands before vehicles turned into jellybeans and potatoes. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leadsled1953 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 scrap metal prices are high.my friend crushed 40 cars the other day for the cash.he didnt crush the old stuff butit could happen.the guy down the street from my friend is closing his yard.he has been there 40 plus years[he has older stuff].if people dont buy the cars they may meet the same fate.that is whats happening to our hobby.add zoning issues and i see problems in the next 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coley Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 One main thing, we will not live long enough to see gasoline disappear.Parts will be made if the demand is there.There just isn't enough garage tinkerers as there were 20 years ago. I think that is a bigger problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leadsled1953 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 yes i think you are right about there being fewer garage tinkerers.my nieghbors are amazed that i rebuit a gearbox on a 40 year old snowblower.they dont understand why you would fix anything..just buy another one. i think parts will be a real problem.i went to napa the other day to get a part for a unity spotlight.they didnt know how to order it.unity told me that napa is the distributor for thier parts and to give the part number to them and tell them to order it from the main napa warehouse...they couldnt do it because it was not in the computor. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 Whatever is worth collecting from the 1990s era in another 15-20 years will no doubt see aftermarket manufacturers making computers and other electrical components just as we see horn button, sunvisors, replaceement carbs and the rest for our old cars.And as for mileage my 300HP El Dorado Touring Coupe cranked off 29.8 MPG cruisin at 75 MPH for about 175 miles and a grand total of 26.7 for 285 remaining miles at 80 MPH. The last 100 miles was without cruise control. Hybrid my butt! When gas is gone it's gone and humanity will move on as it always has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidAxle Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having just went through replacement of 2 wiring harnesses and the repair of another in my wife's car I tend to agree with the technician (formerly call a mechanic), "the new vehicles with minimal maintenance will easily run over 200K miles however when the wiring and electronics start to go it is time to junk them." Of course that didn't convince the wife who likes the car.I personally don't see many of today's jellybean cars being future collectibles however there are a few exceptions. </div></div>Ron, You know, I find it just a bit humorous that you would say that, considering that the very same thing was said, in writing, in The Restorer (Model A Ford Club of America) in late 1969! The then-President of MAFCA went on record, saying in his monthly editorial, that nobody, NOBODY would ever be able to restore a car from the 1950's, with its "pot metal" carburetor, complex and unmanageable automatic transmission, tin-foil body, and heat-stitched vinyl upholstery. I wonder if he's still living, and if so, did he have his words in that editorial served up as broiled, fried, fricassee'd, or simply nuked in the microwave, for dinner? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />Art Anderson </div></div>I completely agree. Time has a funny way of making today's complexity into tomorrows novelty. We are currently restoring a 1980 Mercedes for a customer (his Father's car). The thing is computer (early single box) controlled and has a ton of vacuum operated components. It was considered very sophisticated in its day, now its kind of humorous working on it. My 22 year old employee thinks its way cool working on that "old" car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest whotmewory Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 I like to put old cars and today's cars in perspective using clothes: old cars were a lot like the fashions of their day with flare and extravagance. Look at a 1959 Buick Electra or 195X Mercury Turnpike Cruiser and all the materials and workmanship that went into stuff that served no other purpose but for "flare."If today's cars were clothes, they'd be leotards or those bland silver unisex uniforms space travelers used in the 50's space movies. Blech!That's what today's rollling jelly bellys need: FASHION.Utility be damned!Chris in NC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leadsled1953 Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 whotmewory is right. todays cars are like toasters to me .use them and junk them.no soul no personality. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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