VERIFY THAT VIN

[machittome]

I've been judging AACA events for over 10 years now and it just dawned on me that a member's car is registered for an AACA event by it's VIN so it's record and sheet and envelope can be labeled, but the VIN of the vehicle on the show field is never verified by the judging team! This breaks the integrity of the system. Someone could bring a totally different vehicle to the show and no one would know! I would like to recommend that the duties of the Judging Team Captain include verifying that the VIN on the vehicle matches the VIN on the show registration.

[ted sweet]

don't even verfify that the VIN matches the model. ie a tempest cloned into and judged as a GTo.

[DizzyDale]

Do you honestly believe there is TIME to check ANY numbers at a meet the size of Hershey.It WONT stop at the VIN number,SAVE the VERY ANAL numbers matching GAME for the single marque clubs.IMHO.diz

[machittome]

It would only take a few seconds to verify that the vin on the registration matches the vin on the vehicle.

[Guest 70 Electra]

Seems like a sensible idea. Shouldn't take but a second, since realistically, you would only need to check the last couple of numbers (assuming the liklihood of the sequential number matching that of a "substitute" car is about ZERO!)

But, would this be a problem on early cars that use a "motor number" instead of VIN? I can't see judges wanting to be reading engine numbers with flashlights...

[machittome]

We just had a 1968 Mustang disqualified at Hershey for having the wrong motor in it. It had a 428 instead of the 302 indicated in the VIN.

[ted sweet]

disqualfied?

[Guest 70 Electra]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We just had a 1968 Mustang disqualified at Hershey for having the wrong motor in it. It had a 428 instead of the 302 indicated in the VIN. </div></div>

I would be interested to hear responses from experienced AACA judges on this.

My understanding has always been that AACA allows any combination of factory equipment/colors as long as it can be documented as available. In other words if you had a brown Chevelle with 283, you could present it as a red car with 327, assuming that combination was available.

I did not think it mattered if your particular car was ORIGINALLY built that way or not. What gives??

[machittome]

I am an experienced judge.

>>>My understanding has always been that AACA allows any combination of factory equipment/colors as long as it can be documented as available. In other words if you had a brown Chevelle with 283, you could present it as a red car with 327, assuming that combination was available.<<<

You are partly correct. AACA's position is that the car must be presented as it was when it left the factory. It can have any factory authorized options and accessories applicable to that model. A Brown Chevelle with a 283 could not have left the factory with red paint and a 327. A Chevelle having red paint and a 327 better have the VIN and data plate to match or deductions are in order with a knowledgable judge. Smaller options or accessories that don't affect the VIN or data plate can be added with no deduction. The owner would need factory documentation that the dealer repainted the car and changed the engine before delivery. Documentation is key with AACA.

[DaveBerg]

While it has been many years since I was the VP Class Judging I do still sit on the AACA Judging Committee and would like to know more about this "disqualification". I can say without hesitation that we do currently have an excellent VP Class Judging in Randy Rutherford. I have seen Randy deal with many different situations this year in a top notch professional manner. Please fill me in with the details on this happening.

Now to respond to the question of paint color and motor it goes as follows:

Any vehicle can be shown with any color or motor without penalty if that color and motor could have been ordered on that vehicle when the vehicle was new. The short form is "How could it have looked when it left the factory" Not how did it look but how could it have looked. If it was a brown car originally when it left the factory but could have been ordered in red then red is OK. If it had a 283 V-8 when it left the factory and now has a 427, if a 427 could have been ordered then it is OK. Its that simple. Now if it could not have been ordered with a 427 and has one it does have an incorrect motor. The judging sheet does not have a component deduction for an incorrect motor. The deductions would be taken in the various components that make it up, ie, manifolds, heads, etc etc. It would be a significant amount of points. However, an incorrect color and/or an incorrect motor would not disqualify a vehicle. It may cause deductions significant enough to make the vehicle not place as far as awards go but there would not be any disqualification. Now with this in mind we are speaking of the normal Junior competition class. In the DPC (Driver Participation Class) or in HPOF (Historic Preservation of Original Features) a non authentic motor that was not available for that model in that year could be sufficient to have the vehicle not be certified. Still the vehicle would be permitted to be displayed in its proper class, recieve its dash plaque and be judged. Even though it is unlikely to recieve an award.

If we are confusing the term "Disqualified" with "Not recieving an award" that would be incorrect and quite misleading to anyone considering showing a car in the future. I hope thats why the reference was made. I was unaware of any vehicle being "disqualified" at Hershey this year. Quite honestly the only reason that I can think of for disqualification is not having a fire extinguisher. Quite honestly until you've watched someones magnificent car burn to the ground it is sometimes hard to understand the importance of this rule.

So while I have no idea the circumstances or actual events that took place in the scenario mentioned above I do offer this information as just that, information, and hope that it is helpful for you or anyone interested. this Hershey meet was my 216th AACA National meet to judge at. I learn something new at every one of them. All members are welcome to attend the AACA National Judging Schools. there is no cost and no requirement that you must judge. It is entirely up to you. I promise you will find it informative and helpful in your own restorations as well as from the judging standpoints.

[Jay Wolf]

I'm' glad you responded. I was going to respond, as I have ask the "clone" question at judging school and got your response, not the one "machittome" gave. I am glad a judge with your credentials responded. I think the hard part comes with making sure the car has to correct equipment for the engine it has. RE: with some manufacturers front disk brakes were a mandatory option with all big block cars or certain engine were only available with certain packages.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We just had a 1968 Mustang disqualified at Hershey for having the wrong motor in it. It had a 428 instead of the 302 indicated in the VIN. </div></div>

Sure wouldn't want to be the judge that made that boneheaded decision, but this is a K-Mart lot car question, so I'll stay out of it. We don't unbolt 1928-41 Ford left front fenders looking for "Vin Numbers" life it too short for that anal stuff.

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We don't unbolt 1928-41 Ford left front fenders looking for "Vin Numbers" </div></div>

or remove truck cabs to read the VIN number stamped on the top of the frame rail.

[machittome]

I guess some judges get confused trying to keep the rules from their marque clubs seperate from the AACA. But even with the marque club having the wrong engine would be a major point deduction, not a disqualification.

I didn't realize checking the vin on some vehicles was so difficult. I'm used to having it right there on the dash board.

[randjflo60]

You will find after reading certain posts on this forum that AACA judges are very easily confused. But, they know exactly how many judging credits they have.

[D Binger]

You noticed that too?

[Guest]

And how some experienced experts have so much misinformation, and how freely they impart it to others.

hvs

[Steve Moskowitz]

Out of 1500 active judges you are bound to find all different degrees of expertise. The good news is that the AACA National Judging Committee under Randy Rutherford and Chairman of Judges training Fred Young have been working awful hard to make the system better.

Howard and Dan, are you talking about me???!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Howard, don't answer!

[D Binger]

I didn't mention any names

[Rick Hoover]

Oh go ahead and tell him Dan. I'll back you up! (and standing far back too)

[D Binger]

You know something Hoover? I only look stupid.

[Guest]

Dan, isn't the jury still out on that one?

Howard

[D Binger]

Howard,

Yep.

[machittome]

>>>The judging sheet does not have a component deduction for an incorrect motor. The deductions would be taken in the various components that make it up, ie, manifolds, heads, etc etc. It would be a significant amount of points. However, an incorrect color and/or an incorrect motor would not disqualify a vehicle. It may cause deductions significant enough to make the vehicle not place as far as awards go but there would not be any disqualification.<<<

If any motor available in that model is ok then there shouldn't be any component deductions if they are the correct components for the motor that's in the car. If you're going to deduct for the components not matching the components that would have come on the correct motor for the car then we're back to having the motor match the vin.

If any motor available is ok then component deductions should only be for aftermarket components basically. I'm trying to understand this.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">>>>

If any motor available is ok then component deductions should only be for aftermarket components basically. I'm trying to understand this. </div></div>

This is AACA, what part of WE DON'T JUDGE VIN NUMBERS don't you understand? My advice to the car owner if he sees you on a team is to unscrew the vin number plate and save another screwing.

[machittome]

>>>what part of WE DON'T JUDGE VIN NUMBERS don't you understand?<<<

You didn't help me with my question. Let me rephrase it.

I understand that we don't judge vin numbers. My question is will point deductions for engine components mainly be for aftermarket componenents and any

other incorrect component on the engine in the vehicle provided that engine was available. If the engine wasn't available then all component points would be deducted, correct? Thanks for your help.

[DizzyDale]

Dear Machittome,YES you are correct.Hooker,Edelbrock,Dart,MSD,Hamberger are ALL aftermarket components be they chrome or especially billet and would require deductions.NEXT question.diz

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is AACA, what part of WE DON'T JUDGE VIN NUMBERS don't you understand? </div></div>

I understand you are not judging VINs, but I think it is the judge's responsibility to make an effort to ensure that the are judging the car they think they are judging. A glance at the VIN will determine that with ease. I understand if a VIN is not readilly visable, but to assume that you are looking at the correct car is foolish. It's is called "Due diligence" or attention to details.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is AACA, what part of WE DON'T JUDGE VIN NUMBERS don't you understand? </div></div>

I understand you are not judging VINs, but I think it is the judge's responsibility to make an effort to ensure that the are judging the car they think they are judging. A glance at the VIN will determine that with ease. I understand if a VIN is not readilly visable, but to assume that you are looking at the correct car is foolish. It's is called "Due diligence" or attention to details. </div></div>

Please explain to us owners of TRUE antique cars that were built before the VIN PLATE equiped K-Mart lot matching number anal retentive crowd took over the club are to do? Have you personally confused one guys 1910 Pungs-Finch with the other one he may or may not have?

[D Binger]

Bob,

The next thing they will want to do is check and see if the numbers on the Selden Patent plates are correct. That should be an intresting task. The first thing is to figure which vehicles should have them.

[Jay Wolf]

"It's is called "Due diligence" or attention to details."

Are you AACA Judge?

If not, why not?

Judges are not paid; actually it cost judge?s time and money to be a judge.

Judging is a thankless job but someone has to do it and the ones who do it should be applauded.

Most judges have an expertise on one area or another, but they don?t always get to judge the type cars they are experts in. At the Jeffersonville show I judged sports cars, I know little about sports cars and no one on our team knew much about them. But I guess were the best that was available and volunteered. Yes judges are called upon to judge a car they know nothing about and they do the best they can. What is the alternative? ?Sorry we can?t jugged you Amphicar because we don?t have anyone who volunteered, who can decode the VIN # ? Get real, AACA deals with an enormous variety of cars, AACA can not judge like a model specific meets, that all the judges have owned the car they are judging and know they inside out.

Next time your at an AACA event look at the average age of the judges, Most were heavily involved in car with all cars went by the engine number, most people didn?t know what a body number (now called VIN #) was. I have had several cars that I had to have the titles changed from Engine # to VIN #s, and a couple I added numbers to, because I couldn?t find any on the car. Older Vin # plates were easily removable and swapped, Amphicar?s are held on with 2 rivets, everybody removes than when repainting.

Most of the newer cars (muscle) that VIN # is critical are brought to the show by younger people? But they are not judging. Why not? Younger People need to get involved in judging and the running of AACA. Then if they want to check VIN # when judging they can change the system and require it.

With that said, the current AACA judging manual does not discriminate against clones, as long as it ?Could? have come from the factory the way it is shown.

I think the system works well given the limitations AACA faces.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob,

The next thing they will want to do is check and see if the numbers on the Selden Patent plates are correct. That should be an intresting task. The first thing is to figure which vehicles should have them. </div></div>

Oh Sure! Do you really think the VINNIE people have a clue who George Selden was? If anyone needs Selden plate # 215026 you know who to email.

[Shop Rat]

Jay, I think you said it all very well. There are judges out there that are true experts with certain brands of cars, the ones that others call when they need to know for sure about something. But most judges know the most about cars they have had or currently have. And they ask to be placed on teams within an era, or eras, of cars they have a working knowledge of. And the captain will ask for documentation of items that are questioned by the team.

To judge cars against VIN numbers would require each team to have a wagon with books to cover every brand in the class for at least a two year span. With all the materials that the folks at the national have to tote to every show I can just see them lining up to be the one to haul those books around. They, and the judges, have enough to deal with without requiring that.

I can understand that if someone is sitting there with a car that totally matches what it's VIN says it has, and they look and there is a car in their class that doesn't, it irritates them to see what they view as an incorrect car get the same award they get. But there just are not enough judges to fill out each team with five people who know everything about the cars in that class. I believe I heard that they were about one hundred judges short at Hershey. That means that some teams were one to two members short, so someone had to do two jobs.

[novaman]

Try three jobs, when one of your tem members is a "new" judge still learning the process and not real fimilar with the class. That's on top of being team captain and needing to judge too.

[Shop Rat]

Good point. Most captains can judge a category as well as do the captain duties if necessary. But it does add to the job to mentor and guide a new judge when you are already doing two tasks.

[Amphicar BUYER]

Like I said, "I understand if a VIN is not readilly visable..." I am not an expert nor do I play one on TV, but I do understand common sense. If there is some sort of ID that can verify that the car is indeed the one they expect to be judging, it should be looked at. Yes, it's easy to change some VINs, Amphicars require only 4 rivets to change, so what? It still does not negate the fact that some will cheat and it should not be made so easy to do. It's not fair to those of us who are on the up and up. Under the chance that the VINs will be verified, it may help prevent unscrupulous people from pulling a fast one.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Have you personally confused one guys 1910 Pungs-Finch with the other one he may or may not have? </div></div>

Sorry, I've may or may not have ever looked at anyone's Pungs-Finch!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you AACA Judge? If not, why not?

Judges are not paid; actually it cost judge?s time and money to be a judge.

</div></div>

You pretty much answered your own question! I already have one non-paying job, I can't afford another. If my finances were such that I could make all the trips, I would be happy to be a judge. What a great way to see lots of great cars and new people too.

[novaman]

If I remember correctly, when AACA started using the VIN number as part of the registration it was done mainly for record keeping. They were having a problem determining which car had which award. Past AACA Pres. Benny Bootle (deceased) had many 1940 Fords, like I have three Chevy IIs and you have multiple Amphicars. How do the record keepers keep track of the awards for each of the cars? If I was to register my 1963 Chevrolet Chevy II How can you tell which one it is? If you use the color which is it the 2drht or the 4drsd?

To read the VIN number on my Chevy IIs, you need to open the door just about all the way to read the tag on the post. I've seen cars packed on the show field tight enough that you couldn't open the 2drht's door enough to read the tag.

Yes, you do have a valid point in the fact someone could "cheat" by substituting a different car but then the records would show that the awards weren't for that car.

Quote "You pretty much answered your own question! I already have one non-paying job, I can't afford another. If my finances were such that I could make all the trips, I would be happy to be a judge."

You don't have to make all the shows. Some years I only make one (Hershey). Some years like next, I'll make three shows. I'm not financially well off, I work 40+ hours a week for a living, am editor for one region, webmaster for 2 regions and 15 chapters, assisting the AACA Judge's Training Committee with some computer stuff, member of the Sons of the American Legion with it's activities, plus the activities at church. Also have done design work and submitted and/or posted it for AACA & the Museum, I believe 4 different projects that people on the forum have "griped" about but did nothing but gripe. One of those was sent last night to Steve M. and the chairman of the Judging committee and the chairman of the judge's training committee, regarding IDing areas a HPOF car was certified in along with some other recommendations.

All the AACA stuff excluding meets, judging, photo/webmaster/editor duties at shows or special events (tours, displays, etc) have total 336+ hours this years. With what I still need to do, it will take over the 400 hour mark. My days start at 6AM and end between 1AM to 2AM. Sorry, I can't buy into your reasoning. If it was something you really desired to do, you'd find a way. I have.

[1937hd45]

Novaman, Trying to explain that AACA had never given a R--- A-- about VIN numbers and NEVER should to THESE PEOPLE is a waist of your time. But is sure is funny to watch the posts. Would be great to watch them spend a day in the rain looking for VIN # on cars that never had them. After 30 years of AACA judging I quit. I don't want anyone to think I'm guilty of this mindless crapp by association.

[Amphicar BUYER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To read the VIN number on my Chevy IIs, you need to open the door just about all the way to read the tag on the post. I've seen cars packed on the show field tight enough that you couldn't open the 2drht's door enough to read the tag. </div></div>

I have said it 3 times now ... for tha final time "I understand if a VIN is not readilly visable..."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't have to make all the shows. Some years I only make one (Hershey). Some years like next, I'll make three shows. I'm not financially well off, I work 40+ hours a week for a living, am editor for one region, webmaster for 2 regions and 15 chapters, assisting the AACA Judge's Training Committee with some computer stuff, member of the Sons of the American Legion with it's activities, plus the activities at church. Also have done design work and submitted and/or posted it for AACA & the Museum, I believe 4 different projects that people on the forum have "griped" about but did nothing but gripe. One of those was sent last night to Steve M. and the chairman of the Judging committee and the chairman of the judge's training committee, regarding IDing areas a HPOF car was certified in along with some other recommendations. </div></div>

This is about musings, some ideas that could make thing better. NObody is saying you HAVE to do this. Friendly suggestions from the people who finance the club. NOT "gripes"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All the AACA stuff excluding meets, judging, photo/webmaster/editor duties at shows or special events (tours, displays, etc) have total 336+ hours this years. With what I still need to do, it will take over the 400 hour mark. My days start at 6AM and end between 1AM to 2AM. Sorry, I can't buy into your reasoning. If it was something you really desired to do, you'd find a way. I have.

</div></div>

If it were only that easy. If "desire" were all it took, I'd have a fat lottery check handed to me by Goldie Hawn in a suite at the Bellagio already. My avg electric bill just went from $150 monthly, to $335! I am bracing for the heat bill next month. You let me know how I can find a way with these kinds of things to overcome and I'll do it. All this while w/o a paying job. No insurance either. If my wheelchair breaks, that's $3500+ for a new one. Restoring a few Amphicars helps some, but is not a a great living. I have sent out 300+ resumes in the last 24 months, had a few interviews and no luck no matter how much I "desire" a job. I have been turning down jobs that would cost as much for fuel to commute as I would be making. Which shows how the market is. Before I lost my carreer, I had nothing to worry about. A significant savings (gone) and nice paycheck (also gone) So buy into it or not, it takes more than just desire, it takes real money my friend.

These Amphicars were to be my retirement, but I have had to sell the ones I had set aside for that purpose to live on. I am contemplating selling the original red '63 that I spent 7 years looking for to live on before I loose my home. So much for my retirement parachute.

[novaman]

John, I'm sorry to hear about the position your in with the no job and no insurance. That stinks. The whole job market situation is bad. I took your comment of having "one non-paying job, I can't afford another" as you were doing "free" work for like someone or a group, in other words, volunteering.

My girlfriend hasn't had a full time job in 5 years. Right now she works a job that is only about 10 hours a week. Nobody will hire her full time. Around here everything was textile and furniture and factories. Most all of them are gone. White furniture, West Point Stevens, SCI (electronics factory, where she worked), Western Electric, Cone Mills, most all the sock manufacturing place.

The part of my post about the "gripe" wasn't aimed dircertly at you. I meant it more generally than it may have been taken. People do gripe on here about things. I do it too. But A lot of times there isn't a good soultion offered. They may say something like "you need to do X" but never offer a fesable way of doing X that can be used to for a prodcure to do X.

I hope a job comes your way real soon. By the way, any more on the "tailer carport" deal?