WELL, AT LEAST SOMEONE HAS IT RIGHT!

[Guest imported_PWN]

Biodiesel combusted smells like french fries, popcorn, etc.

Biodiesel production is a by-product of the soy protein industry; however, the majority of biodiesel is produced using WASTE used vegetable and animal fats left over from the fast food industry.

In America fallow croplands, that were formerly in Tobacco, are being converted into soy production and this biodiesel.

To be truly green organic farming policies can and should be implemented.

Rain forests are destoyed primarily to produce cattle/beef for the fast food industry.

Ozone????

Interesting Facts about Biodiesel... http://www.biodiesel.org/markets/gen/default.asp

Biodiesel operates in conventional engines. Just like petroleum diesel, biodiesel operates in combustion-ignition engines. Essentially no engine modifications are required, and biodiesel maintains the payload capacity and range of diesel. Pure biodiesel is not compatible with natural rubber, sometimes found in pre-1994 vehicles. Because it is a so lvent, it can degrade natural rubber hoses and gaskets. This is not a problem with B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel/80 percent diesel) and below.

Check out the

Biodiesel does not require special storage. In fact, in its pure form or in blends, biodiesel can be stored wherever petroleum diesel is stored, except in concrete-lined tanks. It handles like diesel and uses the same infrastructure for transport, storage and use. At higher blend levels, biodiesel may deteriorate natural rubber or polyurethane foam materials.

Biodiesel exhaust is less offensive. The use of biodiesel and biodiesel blends results in a noticeable, less offensive change in exhaust odor, which can be a real benefit in confined spaces. In fact, equipment operators have compared it to the smell of French fries. Users also report having no eye irritation. Since biodiesel is oxygenated, diesel engines have more complete combustion with biodiesel than with petroleum.

Biodiesel is safer to use than petroleum diesel. The flash point (the point at which fuel ignites) for biodiesel in its pure form is a minimum of 260 degrees versus about 125 degrees Fahrenheit for regular No. 2 diesel. This makes biodiesel one of the safest fuels to use, handle and store.

Click here for a sample material safety data sheet

Click here for environmental and safety information

Biodiesel reduces emissions significantly. Biodiesel is the first alternative fuel to have fully completed the Health Effects testing requirements of the Clean Air Act. The use of biodiesel in a conventional diesel engine results in substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter. Emissions of nitrogen oxides are either slightly reduced or slightly increased depending on the duty cycle and testing methods. The use of biodiesel decreases the solid carbon fraction of particulate matter (since the oxygen in biodiesel enables more complete combustion to CO2), eliminates the sulfate fraction (as there is no sulfur in the fuel), while the soluble, or hydrocarbon, fraction stays the same or is increased. Biodiesel works well with new technologies such as catalysts, particulate traps, and exhaust gas recirculation. Soy biodiesel reduces carbon dioxide by 78% on a life cycle basis.

Click here for emissions data

Click here for a DOE life cycle report

Click here for Tier I and Tier II Health Effects data

Biodiesel improves domestic energy security. By using domestically produced, renewable fuels like biodiesel, the United States can reduce dependence on foreign countries for oil. Biodiesel has the highest energy balance of any fuel, further increasing its value in our energy portfolio. Every unit of fossil fuel it takes to make biodiesel results in 3.2 units of energy gain. Since petroleum diesel has a negative energy balance of .88, every gallon of biodiesel used has the potential to extend our petroleum reserves by four gallons.

Click here for a DOE life cycle report

Click here for biodiesel myths and facts

[Dynaflash8]

Two questions PWN. Can you buy Biodeisel anywhere along the road? Particular, in my case along I-95 And, did you use that membership application I mailed to you?

[1937hd45]

PWN, If tht is a 550 gallon tank of Biodiesel next to your VW, how many aces of soybeans were raised to produce the beans to fill it?

[6219_Rules]

My question is similar....where can you get it, how will it work in older cars like pre-50s engines? Is anyone doing studies on this? And why has the oil companies not jumped on the band wagon? This would be excellent for the American farmer and the country as a whole...so why are they not telling us about it? I would really like to know what is going on with this.

[Guest imported_PWN]

Check this site for availabilty - pretty sparse.

http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/guide/

HOWEVER, it is relatively EASY to make.

http://www.veggievan.org/biodiesel/articles/make_biodiesel.php

OR you could just convert to use PURE waste oil.

http://www.greasecar.com/

Some detailed info from users.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB44

As far as old cars goes - the main "problem" with using biod is that is can eat older rubber fueld lines and seal - replace with viton tubing. Biod is also a better solvent than diesel and WILL CLEAN OUT you fuel lines and clog filters after a few tanks are used. Then your system is clean.

Check out the google biodiesel search.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=biodiesel

Appreciate your questions.

By the way the photo is not mine - I have the same car but am using a 55 gallon drum.

Biod is purchased in Tampa Florida at Ward Oil.

Oil Companies In Tampa, Florida Ward Oil Company

2701 E. Louisiana

Tampa, FL

(813) 236-5591

ASK for Aaron.

Cheers and happy motoring.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

PWN,

I was just being facetious, mainly for Dave@moon's benefit. Sounds like a good idea. Anything to lessen our dependency on foreign oil.

[R W Burgess]

Earl, George Noblett Oil Co. in the Northrn Neck supplies anyone who would want the product. The extra cost is the thing. I don't know what that is. I did notice that the gentleman said his Biodiesel got 45 mpg in the city whereas the Prius quoted 60mpg on the window sticker. Assuming I would buy something like that, I would go with the hybrid for gas milage alone. Why else buy something that's unusual? 1) I don't worry about accidents, I avoid them, have now for 40 years. 2) Toxic wastes, not my problem, the insurance company's, also refer to answer 1. If people would learn to pay more attention to their driving, they could avoid accidents, or better yet go take a driving course and learn how to really drive a car. Ask Earl if he learned anything from riding and driving beside me. Modesty? Don't have none! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ask me anything, if I don't know I'll tell you so. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[6219_Rules]

Thank you, PWN. I am really interested in this because it seems to be such a simple and obvious answer to a multitude of problems. I would happily convert all my cars to something like this to help the ecology and our economy. I may start using it once the engine is rebuilt in the '47...I will change all fuel lines etc to handle it. That would be too cool.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In America fallow croplands, that were formerly in Tobacco, are being converted into soy production and this biodiesel. </div></div>

From someone who is smack dab in the middle of the tobacco belt and leases out his tobacco acreage and pounds, it ain't happening. Most of the best tobacco land is now in either strawberries and melons, or subdivisions. Some growers are still trying to make a go of it, but the small farmer (30 acres or less) is a thing of the past. That's why I lease mine to other producers. The 18 acres on my homeplace is simply not time or cost effective for me to grow it.

Of course, with VIR two miles down the road, it may become a subdivision yet. The property tax bill came today and with the state-mandated 4-year reassessment the land is now valued 50% higher than it was in 1998, with proportional increase in real estate tax.

This whole tobacco settlement/lawsuit/nannying thing is a very sore subject here. We in the production end of it (which was and is an honest living) have seen that the bottom line of the tobacco settlements was all about money, and how the federal and state governments could get their hands on it for pork projects. Believe me, if you knew some of the things the tobacco settlement money has funded... and only a minuscule amount of it went toward health care and smoking prevention education that it was supposed to fund. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

To quote Joe Jackson when asked point-blank by Geraldo Rivera if he had abused his Jackson Five kids, "Dat's buhshit, 'Raldo."

[48LCCOUPE]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you, PWN. I am really interested in this because it seems to be such a simple and obvious answer to a multitude of problems. I would happily convert all my cars to something like this to help the ecology and our economy. I may start using it once the engine is rebuilt in the '47...I will change all fuel lines etc to handle it. That would be too cool.

</div></div>

correct me if I'm missing something here PWN. I am assuming (careful) that biod is to be used in diesel vehicles in place of regular ole #2 diesel. Not gasoline / sparkplug type engines like the 47 mentioned above. Am I right?

[R W Burgess]

David, You're right. I didn't pick up on Randall's post. As it is now in Virginia, Md., and Pa. the soy is mixed with Diesel only. I know a PA trucker that has it in his whole small fleet. I've never asked him about it, sorry. We travel such great distances that I wouldn't want to have the trucks switched on and then back off again. It would probably be like switching brands of oil back and forth. Just my opinion. W.

[Guest JT]

David,

Yes, it's an alternative diesel fuel. Wayne got in whilst I was posting.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PWN,

I was just being facetious, mainly for Dave@moon's benefit. Sounds like a good idea. Anything to lessen our dependency on foreign oil. </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold"> God &%$# it, where's my @#ing <span style="font-style: italic">unanimimity</span>!!!!</span> There's only one answer to the world's problems--<span style="font-weight: bold"> [color:\\"red\\"] MINE! </span>

Biodiesel is fantastic as well. It's biggest (and practically only) problem is that it isn't here yet (on a commercial scale). With the new Prius I could be doing a <span style="font-style: italic">great deal</span> to preserve the earth <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> my lifestyle simutaneously <span style="font-weight: bold">right now!</span>

Three years ago neither technology was remotely practical. Then the first sub-compact Prius came along. It didn't meet many people's definition of "practical", because the car was too small. Until two months ago neither technology could support a family of 4 on a cross country trip. Today one technology can, thanks to a much bigger/faster/thriftier Prius, and soon so will the other. Both will eventually be supplemented by hydrogen. And then something else may come along.

The point is that this global, life-threatening problem can be addressed immediately.

Immediately, that is, if you're not protecting campaign contributions and personal fortunes tied up with oil stocks.

[A. Woolf]

[color:\\"red\\"]STEAM! Steam cars are low pollution vehicles. I normally run my Stanley on a mix of diesel and gasoline. I bet it would run on biodiesel. And we need some more steam cars on tours anyway!

ASW

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of fuel mileage does a Stanley get?

[A. Woolf]

Not so great about 8-10 miles per gallon. But you have to keep in mind my car is heavy. It weighs about 4000 pounds partly wet without passengers. Add a full tank of water and 5 passengers and we are talking heavy iron. So the mileage isn't that bad. Its as good as my old 1976 Caddy with 500 cubic inches.

But I bet I get more fun per mile than some of you gas car guys!

ASW

[Guest Skyking]

Quote: Until two months ago neither technology could support a family of 4 on a cross country trip. Today one technology can, thanks to a much bigger/faster/thriftier Prius, and soon so will the other.

Dave, I'll walk, or better yet, drive my Met cross country before one of those.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I'll bet you're right. Does it have a transmission or is the crankshaft the axle (like a steam locomotive)?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Dave, I'll walk, or better yet, drive my Met cross country before one of those. </div></div>

...and I'll bet some old-timer will spot you along the way and yell <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">[color:\\"blue\\"] "BUY A HORSE! </span></span>

[A. Woolf]

A Stanley has no transmission. The crankshaft is geared directly to the rear axle with a 1.5 to 1 ratio gearset.

ASW

[Guest Skyking]

lol.......

[1937hd45]

At 4000 pounds that must be a condencing model, correct? Did you know that the Land Speed Record for a steam powered car is only about 40MPH faster than the record Stanley set in 1907?

[Matt Harwood]

I'm not singling anyone out, but this is a discussion I've followed with some interest. First, there's no "magic bullet" for the state of our fuel situation. The hybrid cars are undoubtedly the near future solution, however there's a big factor that nobody has mentioned yet--the cost of replacing all those batteries. So far, none of the Toyota or Honda cars have been on the road long enough to need a change of batteries. But they will shortly. Imagine the owner of one of these cars who is now faced with a $4000 repair bill on a car with less than 50,000 miles on it--tantamount to a new engine, for if you don't do it, the car won't drive. I don't believe that the automakers are subsidizing battery replacement costs as they are sticker prices. For the moment, battery technology is holding back large scale acceptance of these cars.

Second, they aren't profitable for compaies yet. Toyota might be breaking even with their Prius, but I know Honda sells every Insight at a loss. Again, until the battery technology becomes more affordable, they won't be a mass-market vehicle. The Dodge Durango hybrid and Ford Escape hybrid trucks coming out shortly are in a similar situation. However, they are being built for a different reason--improving a 30 MPG car's gas mileage by 15% is pretty hard these days. But doing the same for a truck that gets 18 MPG is far easier and pays bigger dividends in terms of CAFE requirements because of the volumes of truck production.

Diesel is another good intermediate solution, but it is still a fossil fuel, still has distribution problems (a few, anyway), and carries a stigma with it beause the only diesel passenger cars most Americans remember are the Oldsmobuicks from the early 1980s which were simply standard gas engines with the compression jacked up to 20:1, but I digress.

It's been like this forever--there are always better ideas, but in the real world, it's pretty darned hard to beat the old internal combustion engine in terms of power, speed, convenience, price and durability. Until something that does what consumers expect it to do, it will be hard to get anyone to change their minds.

Just my two cents...

[R W Burgess]

Hi Matt, I can see where you're coming from and I don't know what the warrenty is on the Prius, bot, to me, the ideal situition would be to drive the heck out of the car. Then, just before the warrenty runs out, trade it for a new one. Let the next owner deal with the batteries. With the fuel mileage savings you're looking at, I would think you'd save a lot of fuel expense. Wayne

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I'd hate to see the trade in value for a hybrid that they know will need batteries in a short amount of time.

[1937hd45]

Some smart guy will figure out how to retrofit a small block Chevy and keep them on the road.

[ply33]

The older Prius had a 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the hybrid components (including battery). The new Prius as a 8 year 150,000 mile warranty on the batteries.

According to web sites that cover hybrid vehicles, while Toyota has had to replace a few batteries as defective, to date no batteries have worn out due to usage in service.

[Guest imported_PWN]

In the Prius and VW TDI comparison, the VW is a win win and especially good if you live near a biodiesel pump or have the time to make your own.

Prius new 29,500, VW low 20's. Good quality used VW 8 - 16,000$ - Prius???ha ha

Prius - high mileage but gasoline emissions poor NOT a ZERO carbon vehicle

VW - high mileage diesel emissions worse than gas - but with BioD VASTLY superior to gas AND A ZERO CARBON ZERO SULFUR vehicle.

BioD - US produced from waste oil, non-toxic - biodegradable, completely mixable with any concentration of diesel.

Gas - need I say anything - add in long time pollution woes and 1/3 of the military budget going to stabilization of foreign crude.

Versatility - VW FAR SUPERIOR than the prious and VASTLY superior than the Honda. You can actually tow a boat, etc.

Milage is comparable (I know 2 Prius owners who DO NOT get close to what the sticker says and my 3 TDI's GET MORE than the sticker mileage.

We need a biodiesel driven hybrid. Oh yeah, its here - just not commercially available yet.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/600_tt/640_tomorrow/army_hybrid_010903.html

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/600_tt/640_tomorrow/army_hybrid_010903.html

US Navy goes BioDiesel

http://www.solaraccess.com/news/story?storyid=5511

[ply33]

Bio-diesel does sound intriguing. A good way to ween the world off of dead dinosaurs. I won't argue that point.

However, when you put numbers down at least get them right: List price of a base 2004 Prius $20,510 according to the Toyota web site. Fully loaded, out the door with the top option package you are in the high 20s. Of course your state and local taxes and registration fees will add to that. So it sounds like the Prius costs about the same as your VW.

For resale, I just went to the Kelly Blue Book web site and keyed in a 2001 Prius with the assumption of private party sale, 10,000 miles/yr (30,000 total miles) and vehicle in "good" (average) condition and got a price of just $14,880. The same assumptions for a 2001 VW GTI turbo diesel gives $14,760. Sounds like the resale isn't all that different too.

[Guest imported_PWN]

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/p...enav..4.Toyota*

I doubt you could find a used hybrid - not many new.

[ply33]

Hey PWN, great link. I was not aware that such a calculator existed on the web. I guess I will have to poke around at it to see what their assumptions are for fuel prices, etc.

It looks like there are several diesel TDI VWs available. I ran two through the calculator:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/volkswag...1.1.Volkswagen*

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/volkswag...1.1.Volkswagen*

Looks like that the cost per mile (between $0.39/mile and $0.44/mile) for the VW is no better than the Prius at $0.39). Since they want your ZIP code for the calculation, I guess that could vary based on where you live.

The one thing I think that proves is that an old car is cheaper per mile than a new car.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ....- but with BioD VASTLY superior to gas AND A <span style="font-weight: bold">ZERO CARBON</span> ZERO SULFUR vehicle. </div></div>

That simply isn't possible. Biodiesel is a mixture of many hydrocarbon types, which are oxidized in the cylinders to form (mostly) carbon dioxide and water vapor. There are, of course, some unburned hydrocarbons (which cause the exhaust's characteristic odor) and some nitrous oxides formed as well. See: BIODIESEL EMISSIONS COMPARED TO CONVENTIONAL DIESEL

From what little I've read the emissions from a vehicle burning biodiesel only are (strictly speaking) cleaner than a traditional diesel engine. But to call <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> burned exhaust gas "carbon free" is absurd. Exhaust emissions will <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> be primarily carbon dioxide and water vapor, and therefore still a major determining factor in global warming.

Unburned hydrocarbons are greatly reduced (but NOT to zero). NO2 emissions are (usually) slightly higher. However, the emissions are essentially sulfer-free, which allows for more aggressive NOx removal (negating any problems associated with increased NO2 levels).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Versatility - VW FAR SUPERIOR than the prious and VASTLY superior than the Honda. You can actually tow a boat, etc. </div></div>

No doubt. In the near future pretty much all commercial vehicles are likely to be burning at least B20 biodiesel, if not the pure stuff. So will most of the tow vehicles heading for Hershey in October!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> We need a biodiesel driven hybrid. Oh yeah, its here - just not commercially available yet </div></div>

It'd be interesting to see how well hybrid technology would match up to diesel engine dynamics. My gut feeling is that the traditional internal combustion engine, with it's much better instant high-rev power characteristics, is better suited to hybrid use. This is probably why diesels weren't tried in the first place.

I suspect that there <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> be practical highway cruiser applications developed using diesel hybrids, but for city commuting purposes it will prove difficult to overcome the diesel's power curve.

==========================================================

Finally, just in case anybody out there is worrying about having to pay to get new batteries in their 150K mile+ Prius, bear in mind that if you had the only fluid coupling automatic transmission in the county it'd probably cost $4000 to replace it as well. As these vehicles become more common, and quite likely take over as the norm on our highways, maintenance costs will surely come in line. That way you can be sure to 300K miles out of your Prius!

[Guest imported_PWN]

Dave

Burning BioD IS Zero Carbon. Yes, carbon is in the emission gasses, but it is carbon that already existed in the atmosphere. Carbon that was synthesized in the plants that the BioD was made from. NOT carbon PERMANANTLY locked up deep in the earths petroleum reserves - carbon that is essentially NEW to the atmosphere.

Zero Carbon simply refers to the fact that NO NEW CARBON is introduced, just recycled.

NOx emmissions will be reduced (to near zero) when low sulfer fuel is used in the USA, and as a result, catalytic converters that eliminate NOx can be used. They are available now - but not used due to the fact that sulfer kills them.

BioD is not a panacea, but it works, is much better than fossil fuels and it sure as hell brings a huge smile to my families face to know that we are doing a great thing for this country.

Cheers,

Peter

[Dave@Moon]

Good point, Peter. I should've thought of that myself!

[Dave@Moon]

In case anybody out there still thinks that people who live on rural ranches can't be hurting our planet, be sure to read this article by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. It should be exceedingly clear why our government and country isn't in the lead any more with regard to guiding automotive technology.

Here's a typical exerpt: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Today, with the presidency and both houses of Congress under the anti-environmentalists' control, they are set to eviscerate the despised laws. White House strategy is to promote its unpopular policies by lying about its agenda, cheating on the science and stealing the language and rhetoric of the environmental movement.

Even as Republican pollster Luntz acknowledged that the scientific evidence is against the Republicans on issues like global warming, he advised them to find scientists willing to hoodwink the public. "You need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue," he told Republicans, "by becoming even more active in recruiting experts sympathetic to your view."

In the meantime, he urged them to change their rhetoric. " 'Climate change,' " he said, "is less threatening than 'global warming.' While global warming has catastrophic connotations attached to it, climate change suggests a more controllable and less emotional challenge."

</div></div>

And there's this, more pertintent tidbit: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As if to prove that point, Republicans simultaneously eliminated the tax credit that had encouraged Americans to buy gas-saving hybrid cars, and weakened efficiency standards for everything from air conditioners to automobiles. They also created an obscene $100,000 tax break for Hummers and the thirty-eight biggest gas guzzlers. Then, adding insult to injury, the Energy Department robbed $135,615 from the anemic solar, renewables and energy-conservation budget to produce 10,000 copies of the White House's energy plan......

The plan represents a massive transfer of wealth from the public to the energy sector. Indeed, Bush views his massive tax cuts as a way of helping Americans pay for inflated energy bills. "If I had my way," he declared, "I'd have [the tax cuts] in place tomorrow so that people would have money in their pockets to deal with high energy prices."

</div></div>

Don't let it throw you that such an authoritative, well-researched and documented presentation has to be published in <span style="font-style: italic">Rolling Stone</span> because the "liberal media" is too afraid of offending the powers that be. It's a lot of words covering complex and difficult issues from a well respected man who's attended four universities, and holds two law degrees. Smart people are scary.

When the communist Chinese leadership demonstrates a more thorough understanding of earth sciences then the oil company representatives that run our "elected" government, it says a lot about <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">us!</span></span>

Who need's "matching Federal funding" anyway?

[R W Burgess]

I know this is going to irk you, Dave. But, why do you keep bringing up Rolling Stone Magazine? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The only thing I read as a kid was CarToons and Mad magazine. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Need I explain more. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[Guest]

Some people are educated beyond their intelligence.

Let's see--- Four universities, but which four? Two law degrees. Aren't they dangerous enough with just one?

Dave, you never cease to amaze me.

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

I guess we're suppose to believe that John-John would never mislead us with any liberal agenda?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some people are educated beyond their intelligence.

Let's see--- Four universities, but which four? Two law degrees. Aren't they dangerous enough with just one?

Dave, you never cease to amaze me. </div></div>

Why does it not suprise me that no one read the article?

Or even read the biography?

And why is it that I'm not suprised that I'm the one people are supposed to see as outside the bounds of confomity?

Or simple logic?

And why is that I'm not suprised to see intelligence and education again mocked in the name of political expedience?

"Amaze" is a very mild word for what's going on in this country right now, Howard. Be prepared to not understand a lot in the coming years.

[R W Burgess]

Dave, I'm not mocking you, but I need more evidence before I jump off a building to protect myself. There's so much political hate and discontent that you don't know who to believe, so I don't believe anyone. Sorry about that, but a lot of people feel that way. Seems we can't do anything to change it, so we ignor it. At least that's my opinion. Wayne