Oil coming out of small hole in block

[drovak]

The oil pump was very tight, but some gentle hammer persuasion got it loose. It only fell a fraction of an inch, though. Turns out a broken lock washer was jamming it up near the top. Once that was removed with the power of a magnet, the pump dropped as expected. 

 

 

We began to pull the camshaft out, being very careful to not drop it on any bearings in case we opt to attempt to reuse them. 

 

 

And finally, success. The camshaft is out, but I've not gotten the timing gear off the shaft yet. It is a bit worn but looks somewhat usable. I haven't decided if I'm going to try to preserve the thrust bearing or the gear, or by some miracle, both. I suspect since I have some good timing gears now, I will preserve the bearing best I can. 

 

[drovak]

Of course, nothing is easy. Turns out, the fuel pump is different (larger) on a '32, so they put a bigger lobe on the shaft. 

 

 

This means that the '32 camshaft will at least require machining to correct that issue. 

 

The bearings and journals look pretty decent from what I can tell. A little pitting in a few places on the journals, but nothing severe. 

 

 

The Babbitt looks pretty good, too.

 

 

My friend and I measured the journals and found that they're a few 0.01" off from the 1931 drawings (well, there's no camshaft drawings, but based on the drawings of the bearings...), so this indicates that the camshaft might have been worked on previously, or the bearings/camshaft are in fact different between '31 and '32. Hmm...

[drovak]

I'm still trying to decide what to do about my camshaft bearing situation. Do I order custom Babbitt bearings or do I reuse the ones from the donor '32 and deal with the much increased clearance? The clearances measure from about 0.004" to 0.006", which seems excessive to me. Thoughts?

 

If I do want to pursue new bearings, has anyone had any experience ordering custom Babbitt cam bearings?

[edinmass]

Make them out of bronze. We do it all the time for Pierce Arrow's. There is a learning curve when installing them and getting the dimensions right. 

[drovak]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Make them out of bronze. We do it all the time for Pierce Arrow's. There is a learning curve when installing them and getting the dimensions right. 

Did Pierce Arrow use bronze from the factory, or Babbitt? My concern going back to bronze is that Buick tried bronze for the 1931 model year and found enough issues to move back to Babbitt. 

 

It's hard for me to say now what caused the bearing to seize on mine, but I did see debris in the oiling holes of the rear cam bearings that could've contributed to starvation. My hope is that installing a full flow oil filter will help prevent this. 

[DonMicheletti]

Where are you going to tap into the oil system for the filter?

I did mine tapping into the oil cooler line (photo).

This was a long time ago and the filter parts came from a '56 Buick.

[drovak]

Don, that's exactly where I plan to tap into it. I've already bypassed the oil cooler. 

 

There's an oil cooler bypass valve in the oil pump that I'll need to consider as well. Assuming the oil filter does not restrict the oil flow enough, I'll plan to restrict the bypass valve. 

[32buick67]

Oil lines and oil flow management - 

Flow from the pump to the rocker arm fitting is regulated, per original design, don't want too much, don't want too little (some posts on this topic wrt the special metering tee as well).

 

1931-80-90 drawings showing original filter design, lines, cutaways:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lmk if you need info on Dole fittings - there are modern suppliers who offer a variety of sizes, and there is still NOS tubing on ebay with correct ID/OD for these fittings.

Bobs Automobilia had some filters at one point, might be worth a call to chat with him about current status and recommendations.

I'd consider spin-on going forward for regular driving.

 

I put a canister on my 32, using Wix filter elements and I piped the lines with Dole fittings and I keep the flow per original specs with the metering tee.

But, I think a spin-on would be better, Hugh has some good info about fittings and mounting.

 

 

[32buick67]

Original 1930 factory engineering instructions for the hot new 1931 straight 8, camshaft specs and bearings, hopefully this helps - much was common between 31 and 32, and if you can use the 32 babbitt, I think you will be ok.

Modern bronze is good, but its a project to reverse engineer, fun, but not a fast path to getting back on the road, and if you can use the 32 babbitt bearings, well, you should be ok, but ref these specs for more info and for determining confidence with next steps when evaluating 31 vs 32.

 

 

 

This info should also be in the 1931 shop manual in a different format - 

 

 

 

[32buick67]

Fuel pump - 

I wouldn't hesitate for a moment running the 32 cam in the 31 block - the 32 fuel pump has both vacuum and fuel functions vs the 31 pump which was fuel only.

The taller cam lobe is ok and won't hurt anything if you can use the 32 pump to just pump fuel on the 31.

The 32 dual action vacuum pump was offered for improving wiper function, but not needed so much today for us fair-weather drivers.

If you have the 32 pump, 32 push rod, 32 cam, you can setup the 31 with a winning combo and ignore the 32 fuel pump vacuum pump function if you leave the in/out ports open.

 

[drovak]

2 hours ago, 32buick67 said:

Flow from the pump to the rocker arm fitting is regulated, per original design, don't want too much, don't want too little (some posts on this topic wrt the special metering tee as well).

I figure if I put a full-flow spin-on filter that takes the place of the oil cooler, I shouldn't affect the limited flow going to the head—save for the fact that my car, along with several others I've seen, had their original filters bypassed entirely. But hopefully, the oil filter isn't providing much of any flow restriction—when it's clean, anyways. 

 

I'd plan to use this, mounted on a bracket that bolts onto the block in the same spot, basically: https://www.amazon.com/Derale-15708-Remote-Filter-Mount/dp/B004XONTFW/ref=asc_df_B004XONTFW

 

2 hours ago, 32buick67 said:

hopefully this helps - much was common between 31 and 32, and if you can use the 32 babbitt, I think you will be ok.

Thank you, Mario! I'm just concerned that 0.004" to 0.006" clearance that I'm measuring with the '32 cam and bearings is simply too much and will require new bearings. 

 

1 hour ago, 32buick67 said:

I wouldn't hesitate for a moment running the 32 cam in the 31 block - the 32 fuel pump has both vacuum and fuel functions vs the 31 pump which was fuel only.

The taller cam lobe is ok and won't hurt anything if you can use the 32 pump to just pump fuel on the 31.

Unfortunately, I don't think the '32 pump will bolt on to a '31 block. Also, the construction of the block to support the push rod for the fuel pump is quite different between the '31 and '32, far as I can see. They expanded the diameter of the end of the rod that rides against the camshaft eccentric, presumably to minimize wear. I can certainly see a difference between the wear on my '31 eccentric versus the '32.

[edinmass]

Pierce used babbitt, problem is cam bearings were spun when poured back in the day. Today no one spins them and they are prone to problems. Cam bearing clearance is critical because if not tight enough you drop lots of oil pressure. It's common to see rebuilt engines today with poor pressure due to many shops won't attempt to replace them. 

[drovak]

My friend took the '31 camshaft to an engine shop to have the bad journal ground down. They didn't cut all the way down to get rid of all of the chisel marks, but they insist that it'll be fine as long as they aren't above the journal surface. They also found the camshaft was bent, so they straightened it out as well. I've decided to keep the '32 camshaft as a backup plan for now. 

 

Now that we have the camshaft back, another friend volunteered to make me five new bearings. The sixth bearing is staying in the engine as it would require dropping the engine to remove. 

 

In the meantime, I'm working on my mounting plate for the remote oil filter. 

 

 

 

It will mount where the original filter would've been, but offset as to not interfere with the starter. I prefer it vertical so that when I change the filter, it should be less messy...maybe. It should also require less copper pipe. 

[drovak]

Oh, and here are the four other bearings removed from the '31. Two of these were pinned in place, but they did not drill all of the way through the bearing as per the original. The other two were knurled and likely turned back down again to get the fit better, but were not pinned in place. 

 

 

I wonder why Buick pinned these in place given many other cars of the era were not pinned as I understand it. My friend suggests we tap the block to utilize setscrews rather than pins.

[kar3516]

This is an interesting thread well worth reading; note Robert Engle’s post’s about size of oil lines and oil flow to the valve train and cam gear:

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by kar3516 (see edit history)

[drovak]

Yes, indeed. I'm planning to use a full-flow filter in lieu of the oil heat exchanger (which I previously bypassed). There's still a small restriction where a previous owner bypassed the original oil filter, which has been completely removed on my car. 

 

As a result, this should not only filter all of the oil pumping through the system, it should also retain good oil pressure. I have consistently read 30 PSI once the car is warmed up and at speed.

 

It's not even close to original, but I want to ensure during the process of machining the camshaft and bearings that there is zero chance of me recycling those shavings through the bearings and such. 

[EmTee]

5 hours ago, drovak said:

It's not even close to original, but I want to ensure during the process of machining the camshaft and bearings that there is zero chance of me recycling those shavings through the bearings and such.

You can also install a magnetic drain plug on the oil pan.

[drovak]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

You can also install a magnetic drain plug on the oil pan.

Very true, but some of the sparkly bits are bronze. 

[32buick67]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:24 AM, drovak said:

Very true, but some of the sparkly bits are bronze. 

How are you doing Kyle, hope you've had a good Christmas - making progress on these finiky cam bearings?

 

After my wife and I returned from Paris for a surprise bday trip, I too have been under the belly of the beast of our 32 Buick this last week working on a few gritty greasy items.

My back hurts and my knuckles are unhappy, but hopefully yours are better!

[drovak]

I had a very good Christmas indeed, and I hope the same for you! Paris sounds very fun this time of year. 

 

Things have slowed down on the '31, but I hope to get my friend to help machine those bearings in the next week or two. Then it should be a good amount of reassembly, and we'll see what happens after that!

[kar3516]

46 minutes ago, drovak said:

I had a very good Christmas indeed, and I hope the same for you! Paris sounds very fun this time of year. 

 

Things have slowed down on the '31, but I hope to get my friend to help machine those bearings in the next week or two. Then it should be a good amount of reassembly, and we'll see what happens after that!

I’m very interested to hear how your new cam bearings work out.  Will be watching this thread for your updates.    I may end up in the same situation as you 

[drovak]

We cleaned the camshaft (ensuring all of the oil galleries are free of debris).

 

 

We then hammered in the new bearings.

 

 

The car is coming back together, slowly but surely. I'm optimistic that I'll be able to try starting it Friday. 

 

 

 

 

[drovak]

I think we indexed the generator and distributor correctly to how the car was when we first disassembled it, but we will verify that the timing is still correct. The generator gear has an index mark on one of its 20 teeth (60 teeth on the timing gear, 30 on the crank), but it's not clear to me how to properly index the three gears together using those marks. Any ideas? I would think one would also have to ensure the distributor is properly indexed to the generator for all of that to work from index marks alone, and I'm not sure how that was done originally. 

 

I also cut some rubber motor mounts for the front, which were missing. The castle nuts now are at the right height along the bolt to actually be used as designed.

 

 

The oil slinger for the front of the engine looked weird. I compared it to the one I pulled out of the '32 and confirmed in the parts list that the same was used for '31, so whatever came on my '31 is certainly not original. 

 

 

Needless to say, it's been replaced with the correct one from the '32.

 

I also scavenged the bolt holding the timing gear to the camshaft from the '32, as someone replaced it previously with a bolt that had too tall of a head, and caused the bolt to wear directly against the timing cover...

 

 

 

One of many things I've discovered along the way that just wasn't right...and I'm sure there will be more. 

[neil morse]

2 hours ago, drovak said:

One of many things I've discovered along the way that just wasn't right...and I'm sure there will be more.

I have very little experience with kind of job you're doing here, but I'm constantly surprised to learn that with these engines it often isn't so much a matter of how important it is to get everything right so the engine will run, but instead, how well (and for how many years) the engine will run with a lot things wrong!

[32buick67]

6 hours ago, drovak said:

it's not clear to me how to properly index the three gears together using those marks. Any ideas?

I would only align the crank and cam together using their alignment marks.

The generator can be randomly aligned (ignore the circle stamp on the gen gear), but be sure to remove the distributor and align it's gearing per the manual with #1 firing close to TDC and also when #3 exh valve changes position, then fine tune from there.

At this point you likely won't know how the distributor is aligned to the generator, so the gen gear stamping probably doesn't mean anything discernable, and there is probably no point in making it mean something since it will be hidden.

 

Of note, I wish I drilled an inspection hole in my timing cover when it was off...I would like to have been able to see/endoscope inside as part of PMs.

Something to think about...

[drovak]

Didn't get as much done yesterday as hoped due to unforeseen circumstances, but the new oil filter is mounted and plumbed up. Hopefully it will help save the engine from future destruction. 

 

 

[BuickTom87]

Wow , that’s pretty nice setup !! With the modern filter , I’m still trying to find a replacement filter for my oil canister. 

[EmTee]

4 hours ago, BuickTom87 said:

Wow , that’s pretty nice setup !!

And no SharkBites! 

[drovak]

Well, the good news is the car got reassembled and was running quite well.

 

But the bad news is, it did not last. Now the front camshaft bearing, one of the five replacement bearings, seized up.

 

 

You can see in the above image, after removing the timing cover and pulling out the shaft half an inch, the bearing is coming out with it. 

 

 

And indeed, it is seized to the journal.

 

The best working theory is that there was sufficient radial preload from the timing gear to cause the journal to reduce lubrication at one point, causing it to eventually grab and spin. But, I don't really have any proof. 

 

I've ordered more bronze from McMaster and will hopefully get another made, with plans to increase the clearance on the ID, and decrease the clearance on the OD for a more snug fit.

 

The replacement bearing for the original failed one is showing some scoring, so it will get some attention from a cylinder hone, or I may go ahead and have a new one made with a slight increase in clearance as well.

 

The saga continues!

[raydurr]

I could be wrong but I suspect inadequate oil flow to the bearing.

[drovak]

If there were inadequate flow to the front bearing, I would suspect there would be reduced flow to the front middle bearings as well, and they look very good. Oil pressure is very good, and after the bearing spun, oil was pumping out of the hole for pinning the bearing in place. 

[Oldtech]

First thoughts: either the bearing was too tight or there is an oiling problem.  Is there an oil groove around the inside of the bushing?

[drovak]

 

Here's the bearing shortly after pressing it in. Yep, there was indeed an oil groove cut in it. 

[EmTee]

Seems like the ID was too small relative to the journal.  Did you replace all of the cam bearings?  If not, did you measure clearance between a good original bearing and the cam journal?  Just offhand, I'd expect cam clearance to be similar to crankshaft bearing clearance.

 

I found a good discussion on HAMB.  https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/camshaft-bearing-clearance.1214649/

[drovak]

I didn't have any good original bearings. All have been replaced before. None of the journal dimensions matched the factory drawings. Clearances were all over the place. My friend and I settled on 0.004".

[JFranklin]

20 hours ago, raydurr said:

I could be wrong but I suspect inadequate oil flow to the bearing.

Since the clearance was not too tight it was an oiling problem.

 

5 minutes ago, drovak said:

My friend and I settled on 0.004".

 

[drovak]

I am all ears on how to correct this if it's a lubrication problem. The car indicates 30 PSI of oil pressure. Upon removal from the engine, the other five bearings were well lubricated. This indicates oil was flowing from the front bearing through the camshaft to the two middle-front bearings. Again, the front and rear bearings are the only source of oil for the four middle bearings on the camshaft.

Edited March 7 by drovak (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Not sure, but 0.004 clearance is plenty especially since the cam is turning 1/2 speed of the crank.

[Oldtech]

This is very puzzling. .004 is Plenty. Maybe too much. I'd be happy with .002.  Your clearance chart from the post back in Nov. shows. .0005 to .0025. 

Not that that should kill it.  

Edited March 7 by Oldtech (see edit history)

[drovak]

I may be misremembering what clearance we cut the new bearings. I will verify later.