Split rim spreaders

[jp1gt]

I am always looking for new ways to get myself killed. I am going to get a split rim spreader. I have see them for model T's. Are they the same for say a 20 inch classic car?

[30DodgePanel]

6 hours ago, jp1gt said:

I am always looking for new ways to get myself killed. I am going to get a split rim spreader. I have see them for model T's. Are they the same for say a 20 inch classic car?

 

God forgive me, but after reading that all I could think was there's quicker ways to ridding ones self.  

I realize you were joking but wow, ... "looking for new ways"? That had me going....  

 

There are many spreaders out there for different applications. 

Maybe provide us a photo of the 20" wheel you're working on whether it be split or demountable so we can insure we are giving the correct advice on the proper tools?

[Bill Boudway]

Hi,

We have a 1926 Chrysler that has 20" split rims.

We use a Universal Rim Tool to spread the rim to get the tire off.

I remember a post on this forum that had a copy of the instructions for using it.

I'll take a photo and post it here.

[wayne sheldon]

"Split rims". Can mean two very different types of wheel rims or wheels. Only one of which uses a "rim spreader". So we imagine that type is what you have. The "collapsible" "split" rims common on automobiles of the 1920s, as well as some earlier, and a few later (into the early 1930s).

The good news is that the 1920s style collapsible split rims are relatively safe to work on, once you get used to them. They are basically a one-piece rim unlike the other type of "split rims" that are well known for actually killing people. The "widow maker" "split" rims are a multi-part arrangement with a heavy rim and one or two (sometimes even more?) loose rings that in some way snap into the heavy main wheel/rim to hold the tire in place. The danger with them is that if the parts are not properly cared for and inspected, or not carefully and properly installed, when the tire is aired up under pressure the rings can snap loose and with literally hundreds (even thousands if the pressure is high enough!) pounds of force throw the lighter rings off the heavier rim and tire with enough power to remove human body parts (often the head which has been carelessly placed in exactly the wrong area!).

However, again, provided you are working on the one-piece 1920s type "split" rims? Don't worry when friends freak out and holler about being killed when working on them. They are thinking of the other type. Fair warning, the 1920s style collapsible one piece split rims CAN do a nasty pinch on your finger! And the first few times one tries to work with them is usually very frustrating. With a good rim spreader, and getting used to a few tricks how to place the spreader for best advantage, they usually are not too difficult.

There are several different types of rim spreaders for this style split rims. While the large floor mounted shop type spreaders are really nice to use, they are few and far between. Various lever types, some with mechanical ratchets, were tried and sold. The most common rim spreaders are the three arm screw jack style. They were made by many companies to a common design, and came in numerous sizes and strengths. 

A 20 inch rim is relatively small, and most common smaller rim spreaders should work for it.

Ford's 21 inch split rims used from 1925 through 1927 are softer steel, and generally easy to work with. My 1927 Paige 20 inch rims are much tougher steel, and a rim I recently mounted a tire onto was slightly bent. After fighting it for a couple hours, I changed course and carefully figured the twist in the rim, and had to use a torch to straighten the rim back so the ends would line up and latch properly. After I straightened the rim, it took about twenty minutes to mount the tire.

Larger and heavier cars usually have stronger steel rims and are more difficult to work with. I mounted some tires for a friends 1925 Lincoln sedan many years ago. They were tough! You may want to mention what car this is for?

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[keiser31]

25 minutes ago, Bill Boudway said:

Hi,

We have a 1926 Chrysler that has 20" split rims.

We use a Universal Rim Tool to spread the rim to get the tire off.

I remember a post on this forum that had a copy of the instructions for using it.

I'll take a photo and post it here.

Here is some info....

[30DodgePanel]

1 hour ago, keiser31 said:

Here is some info....

 

That's what I have for my 19", Hercules is one of the best in my opinion.

Pretty safe unlike the widow maker Wayne described above.

 

Hopefully the poster tells us what car he has so we don't lead him astray.

[Bill Boudway]

Good Morning

Here's a photo of our Model G Hercules . We use it to change tires on our Model G Chrysler, 1926 Phaeton

[old car fan]

Here is ours,standing up.pic upside down. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by old car fan (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

29 minutes ago, old car fan said:

Here is ours,standing up.pic upside down. 

Simply copy and pasted to paint then rotated for the viewers, I used the snippet tool to crop just the tool.  

[28 Chrysler]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:04 AM, jp1gt said:

I am always looking for new ways to get myself killed. I am going to get a split rim spreader. I have see them for model T's. Are they the same for say a 20 inch classic car?

What kind of car  ? - - - I might have one for you.

[jp1gt]

29 cadillac 20 inch rim

[wayne sheldon]

A 1929 Cadillac is a big car with a fairly wide demountable rim on the wooden spoke wheels. You may need a heavier duty rim spreader than most of what is out there. Such heavy duty rim spreaders are hard to come by. The problem with using the common rim spreaders is that they were meant for narrower rims, and forcing a wider rim into a tight tire will tend to twist the rim! Trying to get the rim spread enough to snap into place across the entire divide can very likely result in a permanent distortion of the rim making it never (unless properly repaired?) latch correctly. Note again my previous comments about spending a couple hours not able to latch my Paige rim because it had years earlier been tweaked. After straightening, it only took about twenty minutes from start to finish to mount the tire.

 

Assuming you don't have a big and heavy enough rim spreader to properly do the wider Cadillac rims? What I did many years ago when I mounted a couple tires for my friend's Lincoln, was to use two smaller lighter rim spreaders. Work slowly and carefully, one spreader on each side (inside, outside, however you prefer to refer to them?) of the rim and tire. While expanding the rim, crank slowly, one side and then the other, to expand the rim slowly and evenly. Be careful, but not afraid. The rim spreaders can and might slip and could snap off! However, unlike the "widow maker" type rims, they pretty much can't do major damage to you or anything near you. It CAN and may pinch a finger , might draw blood, could "possibly" break a finger, but most likely only scare the bejeebies out of you.

By carefully expanding both sides more or less evenly, you should be able to spread the rim and latch it (provided it is straight enough to begin with?)

 

I should also mention, that these type rims can be straightened and repaired. The task is a bit tricky, but not really all that difficult. Because I had done so before, and knew the process, it only took me about an hour to carefully cut and trim a sheet steel template to gauge the curvature, and determine exactly where and what way the rim was tweaked. (The tweak was minor enough that getting it right was not probable without a template!) Then because I happen to have my grandfather's tinsmith anvils, one of which is set up and I use often, and it happens to be the perfect size to clamp the rim onto to be worked on, that anvil saved me at least an hour of setup foolishness!

Once everything was set up and ready, it only took about fifteen minutes to do the actual straightening.

 

One important detail? I don't see a confirmation that these are in fact wooden spoke wheels? I don't know offhand which type wire wheels Cadillac used for 1929. Another close friend had a 1927 Cadillac limousine with wire spoke wheels which I think may have been 20 inch (might have been 21 inch?), and I know those were the "widow maker" type!

[jp1gt]

 

1929 cad 20 inch Is this a widowmaker?

 

This seems to be the only kind that I find. there are lots of them for sale. I just want to make sure I get the right one

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by jp1gt (see edit history)

[dl456]

If that is your wheel , that rim spreader will not work. 
The outer ring is removed to facilitate tire removal. 
Yes, these are widow-makers.
Use a couple of safety straps when inflating. Be sure the bead ring is properly seated. 
I did four yesterday. 
Dennis 

[Bill Boudway]

Right on, Dennis.

Yes, the rim spreader shown is for a different type of rim.

Be sure to wrap the tire and rim with safety straps or chain, as Dennis warned.

I have a stupid brother-in-law who changed a truck tire outside of a cage. The lock ring game off when he inflated the tire. Broke both arms, and coller bone. Hard way to learn.

Good luck, and please send a photo.

 

[28 Chrysler]

With that style wheel a couple of big screwdrivers is all that you need to take the locking ring off.

Make sure the wheel is clean and tie tire is all the way to the inside.

On many rims with the valve stem in the center you can lay the tire outside down.

Put about 5 PSI without the valve core, check, put the valve core in and inflate.

I have never had a problem, just take your time.

[jp1gt]

Thanks for all the info. I have heard of the wood semi circles with the bottle jack. I guess I will look on the internet and see how it is done.

[Gerczak]

Here is a good video on how to change wood wheel split rim tires from the 20's and 30's.  Looks like quite a bit of work, muscle, and cussing will be needed to complete this job.

 

 

[Bill Boudway]

Hi,

Thanks for posting this.

Quick question: No new flap?

[wayne sheldon]

3 hours ago, jp1gt said:

Thanks for all the info. I have heard of the wood semi circles with the bottle jack. I guess I will look on the internet and see how it is done.

Again, the bottle jack and block of wood is for the "split rims" that can also be done with the hand crank rim spreader. The wire wheel you showed a picture of cannot use either the hand crank spreader or the bottle jack with a block of wood. The hand crank spreader and the bottle jack with a block of wood only work for the type of removeable rim with the cut in one place across the rim to allow said rim to be collapsed into itself and slipped off and onto tires.

 

It is, and has been confusing for a hundred years about the two completely different types of rims being called the same thing. It is important to understand that they are completely different, and to try to make certain that we are talking about the same type of "split rim" when discussing them and/or how they are done.

This is very important when one considers that one type of "split rim" can literally KILL the person working on it, while the other "split rim" might slip and scare the bejeebies out of someone, but generally will not do serious injury or death.

 

As to your wire wheels, which are the "widow maker" type"? I have worked with similar widow maker wheels quite a bit, maintaining our service trucks that used similar wheels. I toss around the "widow maker" label a lot because it is very important to NEVER forget that that potential does exist! However, IF (big IF) proper care and safety steps are taken? They are not really all that dangerous. The real problem is that if one gets just a little careless? They can instantly turn deadly!

 

 

I have to run to the store for something. Will probably return later with some advice, and a story or two to put things into perspective.

[wayne sheldon]

A rarely considered truth. Virtually any wheel and tire that relies upon some significant air pressure has a potentially explosive force held inside it (provided it has said significant air pressure at the time). And almost any common wheel regardless of design or material can eventually break under pressure. In my other life driving tens of thousands of miles per year doing communications systems service, construction and repair. I had about a half dozen steel wheels break under normal use. A few resulted in blowouts caused by the rim, and not by the tire. In addition to my own wheel failures, I have seen a few others.

One of the best stories, absolutely true! I saw this happen. I had driven to a shopping mall (something I am not particularly fond of doing), and into the parking lot before entering the mall. Not in a hurry to go inside, I sat in the truck and listened to something on the radio of which I wanted to hear the end. I am sitting there, listening to the radio and in my rear view mirror I see a lady walking up behind me heading to the mall entrance. I watch as she walks past and gets to the next parking isle over. Just at that moment, (I felt so badly for the poor lady!) I heard a loud kaboom as the lady jumped up and over about a foot or so! I got out of the truck, locked my door, and started walking over. I will give the lady credit. She quickly collected herself, and headed on toward the mall entrance. I walked over to the car she had been next to and saw that the tire had blown off the rim. Just sitting there, under pressure, just as she walked past, the rim gave way.

Any tire, any rim (at normal pressure), at almost any time, could simply give way and blow out with enough force to do bodily harm. The lady was fortunate that no piece of the rim flew off injuring her in the process. Freak incidents like that are rare, and even when they do happen, usually, nobody is seriously hurt. However, it does illustrate how the "widow maker" multi-part split ring type split rims are not alone in the dangers that they do in fact pose.

 

Again, I like to call them "widow makers" simply because I feel it is wise to make a bit of a joke about that potential danger, just as a reminder to never get careless around them.

 

Rule number one. NEVER get careless working with them! If you do not understand them? Learn about them. Understand where the danger zone is (anywhere in front of the removeable ring when there is pressure on it from the inside!), and stay out of the danger zone. 

Having a proper cage to put the rim and tire into in order to air it up would be a very good thing to do! However, I will admit, it isn't always practical if one does not have such a cage. I never had a cage, and they can be safely done without a cage.

 

If you don't have a cage, wrapping a good chain or good rope around and around the tire and the rim and the ring can help safety it and might save you. On the other hand, the potential force is still great enough that if the rope or chain isn't quite up to the task, it may just lull you into a false sense of security. It might allow you to make a fatal mistake.

 

Never force the removeable ring! They bend easily, and bent rings increase the danger a lot! When the rim, the ring, and the tire are all apart, clean and inspect the rim and ring carefully. Make certain the groove the ring snaps into is clean of significant rust or debris. Make sure there are no cracks anywhere on the ring or ring groove, as well as the wheel itself. Check that the ring isn't bent or twisted, and that it is properly round!  Standard advice has always been that if the ring is bent or twisted in any wrong way? Junk it and get another. That would be great advice IF you could get another properly fitting ring! But you probably can't! And they can be carefully straightened provided there isn't other significant damage (like severe rust, cracks forming?)

If there are any doubts about the fit? Put the ring onto the rim to check the fit before mounting the tire.

 

This is VERY important! Most of these type rims are a clever interlocking of rim, ring, and tire. The tire must be moved inward before attempting to remove the ring!

Most (not all!) such rims have a very shallow drop center to make mounting a bit easier. Just be aware that it may or may not be there (having the shallow drop center does make the task easier).

 

After everything has been cleaned and inspected, mount the tire, making sure to push it inward enough for the ring to go in place.

 

Ring types vary a lot. Most rings are singles and are split, they are usually easy to work with. Sometimes one can find rings that are not split, those can be really tricky to install! Some wheels/rims use a double ring method, where one ring holds against the bead of the tire and the other ring holds the first ring in place. Those might be tricky.

 

Airing up the tire is the most dangerous part of the process! As mentioned, a cage is a great thing to have. Whether you have a cage or not, airing up the tire after mounting, you want to start airing it up slowly. Stay out of the danger zone! From the side, outside the circumference of the tire, check the ring to make sure it is in place where it belongs! Put in a little air, maybe five to eight psi maximum! Check the ring again (still from the side out of the danger zone).If all still looks good, add another five to eight psi (don't push your luck!, you shouldn't be over fifteen psi at this point. Again, staying out of the danger zone, check the ring. IF the tire has begun to move out toward the ring, that is a good thing. Remember, it is the tire that holds the ring down in its groove in order for the ring to hold the tire on the rim. 

The ring doesn't become relatively safe until the tire has moved out enough to hold the ring in its groove!

If everything is still like it should be, add another few psi. By the time you have twenty psi in the tire? The tire should be out and seated on the ring tightly seated in its groove. 

If the tire hasn't slid to where it belongs by now? You probably should let some air out of it to get to a safer level. If the tire is a tight fit, or the rim is a bit rough, you may need some soap or talcum powder to help it slip out into place. Usually, the tire will be pushed out somewhere between ten and fifteen psi. You do not want a sudden crooked snap of the tire at higher pressures popping the ring off! I had one try that one time. Only my careful slow steps airing it up allowed me to catch it before it could get away from me. The tire snapping out hit the ring on one side, managed to pop the ring on the other side out of its groove, which was then locked out of place by the other side of the tire snapping out a fraction of a second later. I had to let all the air out to reposition the tire and recheck the ring for fit before I could continue airing it up (the second time with soap!).

If soap is going to be used? Most common dish washing liquids should be okay. Murphy's oil soap is also very good (if they still sell it?)

 

I prefer to not use soap for a few reasons. However, sometimes it is needed. After adding some small amount of soap, hopefully the tire can be again slowly aired up and snap into place like it is supposed to. Once you have about twenty-five psi and the tire has seated out and the ring is properly seated and held in place by the tire, the assembly becomes fairly safe. However, as a general rule, it still is a good idea to stay out of the danger zone.

 

I made a short extension hose that I connect to the valve stem that allows me to stay outside the circumference of the tire. My extension hose is fairly short, but it is enough. One could make an extension hose five to ten feet long for safety when airing up wheels and tires. I highly recommend doing so!

I use my extension hose on newly mounted tires all the way up to full pressure. Stay out of that danger zone!

[jp1gt]

Hello Wayne in Grass Valley, I used to live in Georgetown for 35 years. I really appreciate all the info. Everyone that I knew to help is dead now! Well not really knowing about split rims I was looking at the pictures and I do not have split rims. Just the trim ring around the outside of the rim. Do you just carefully pry it out? there is lots of info on not to damage it.

[wayne sheldon]

That ring is much more than trim. It actually holds the tire onto the rim. 

As I mentioned in my long diatribe, the air must first be let out of the tire, then the tire pushed back toward the middle of the rim (usually only needs a half an inch, but all the way around!). Then the ring can be carefully pried out and off, being careful to not force it. As I mentioned, those rings can be bent very easily, and if bent even slightly, they can become very difficult to get them seated in their groove.

Special tire irons were made to remove or replace the rings. The problem is/was that minor differences in the shape of the rings meant a dozen different special tire irons had to be manufactured to have one that fit properly. I have I think three of the many that I have used over the years.

However, most of the split rings as seen on your Cadillac wheel are usually fairly easy, and can usually be done with two large screwdrivers and a small hammer. DO NOT hit the ring hard! Using one large screwdriver at the small notch in one end of the ring, pry the end of the ring up. Then try to slip the other screwdriver under the ring and try to pry the ring out. This can sometimes be done with just one screwdriver, however it is much easier with two. Pry gently, do not force it. Work your way around the ring, prying up with one screwdriver and out with the other. Sometimes the ring will stick in its groove, usually due to rust. Lightly tapping with a small hammer can usually break the ring loose from the rust, especially if you keep light pressure on the ring with one screwdriver. 

[Petersen-Jonee]

3 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

That ring is much more than trim. It actually holds the tire onto the rim. 

As I mentioned in my long diatribe, the air must first be let out of the tire, then the tire pushed back toward the middle of the rim (usually only needs a half an inch, but all the way around!). Then the ring can be carefully pried out and off, being careful to not force it. As I mentioned, those rings can be bent very easily, and if bent even slightly, they can become very difficult to get them seated in their groove.

Special tire irons were made to remove or replace the rings. The problem is/was that minor differences in the shape of the rings meant a dozen different special tire irons had to be manufactured to have one that fit properly. I have I think three of the many that I have used over the years.

However, most of the split rings as seen on your Cadillac wheel are usually fairly easy, and can usually be done with two large screwdrivers and a small hammer. DO NOT hit the ring hard! Using one large screwdriver at the small notch in one end of the ring, pry the end of the ring up. Then try to slip the other screwdriver under the ring and try to pry the ring out. This can sometimes be done with just one screwdriver, however it is much easier with two. Pry gently, do not force it. Work your way around the ring, prying up with one screwdriver and out with the other. Sometimes the ring will stick in its groove, usually due to rust. Lightly tapping with a small hammer can usually break the ring loose from the rust, especially if you keep light pressure on the ring with one screwdriver. 

Speaking of tires, Wayne, I'd still love to get one of those balloons you said you had... jeisen@petersen.org

[wayne sheldon]

P - J, I got one from the Pierce Arrow dug out of its cool dark place just this afternoon! I am planning to send you an email with my contact information later tonight.

[Petersen-Jonee]

4 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

P - J, I got one from the Pierce Arrow dug out of its cool dark place just this afternoon! I am planning to send you an email with my contact information later tonight.

Awesome. Thanks, Wayne!

[dodge28]

wayne sheldon congratulation. You said everything I would have said and more. It did not matter what rim spreaders used it twist the rim I will never use a rim spreader. Tire levers are great with a human helper. Widow makers were used up to the early 90"s in heavy transport . Tires were inflated in cages and chains. Now they are all Bud Rims.  

[jp1gt]

Thanks guys. I think I got this now. the main reason I want to do it myself as I have some real nice wheels and I do not want a truck stop tire buster dealing with them.

[ron hausmann]

   Just one more observation. The model T spreaders for regular sized wheels work great but if you have 23” Or larger split rims, you’ll need to get a larger spreader. The model at types are a bit too small I’ve found. 
    My cars use 23”, 24” and 25” wheels and you can find larger type Rim-spreaders for these wheels at swap meets.

    Ron Hausmann P.E.