1930 DA Tire and Rim not fitting on spoked hub

[HBergh]

After replacing the inner tube in my 1930 DA front tire and replacing the tire and rim back onto the spoked hub, I somehow got the two pieces into a position such that the two pieces do not go together.  When pressing the rim and tire onto the hub, the ridges on the rim prevent the needed merge.  I'm stuck.  Has anyone else had this experience?  It should not be this difficult to return the wheel back together.  I know pictures may not be helpful but here are a couple.  I've tried working with tire inflated and deflated.

Edited August 7, 2023 by HBergh (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Something looks backwards to my old eyes. Is this how the other rims are attached?

[Mark Gregush]

Why did you take the wheel off to fix the tube? 

[keiser31]

The same type on my 1931 DH6 are sometimes hard to set on the spokes. A lot of wiggling and sometimes a rubber hammer are involved. You have to be sure the valve stem is in the right location (which looks like it is, in your photo) and the clamp on the rim has to line up with the area it fits into.

OR....if there is a ridge on the inside of the rim, it may be backward as Dave mentioned.

Edited August 8, 2023 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

So that is not a demountable rim? I have never seen one just like that. I would be interested in seeing the one that is on the other side.

[Minibago]

Remove the tyre and rim from the wheel.

place the wheel, drum down, on the bench.

place the tyre and rim over the wheel.

Or.

Remove the tyre and rim from the wheel

refit the wheel on the car.

fit the tyre and rim on the wheel.

The tyre and rim only fit from the outside.

You have the tyre and rim being fitted from the inside.

The rim has a raised land that locates on the wheel

and the clamps hold the rim tight on the wheel.

 

 

[30DodgePanel]

 According to my catalog, DA cars used K-H 789. Would these notches have anything to do with lining it up properly?

 

 

Am I seeing one of those notches in one of your photos Howard?

See the red arrow below

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Minibago]

1 hour ago, 30DodgePanel said:

 According to my catalog, DA cars used K-H 789. Would these notches have anything to do with lining it up properly?

 

 

Am I seeing one of those notches in one of your photos Howard?

See the red arrow below

 

The should wheel remain on the car.

The rim is designed to be removed by undoing the nuts and retaining clamps and removing the rim from the front (outside)

Replacement is the reverse of removal.

The rim will not fit because it cannot be fitted from the rear (inside)

[HBergh]

Thanks everyone!

Since I can't seem to reply to each specific response, I'll try to respond collectively.  

1.  The tire and rim can only be mounted in one direction because of the way the four clamps attach--onto the threaded bolt and notch on the ridge of the rim.

 

2.  Originally, I did not remove the whole wheel to replace the tube.  I only removed the whole wheel after I replaced the inner tube and wasn't able to remount the tire and rim onto the hub while on the car.

 

3.  Comparing my problem wheel with the one on the other side, one side of the rim has a ridge that the hub goes over and the other ridge mates up flush with the other side of the hub.

 

4.  Yes, the rim is demountable, that's exactly how I removed the rim and tire in the first place, after removing the four clamps and using a little pulling force while on the car. 

 

5.  The inability to remove the tire and rim from the wheel is the main problem--I'm unable to do it.  I will need to visit my local tire shop to get help removing the tire and rim from the wheel.  When I tried to do that myself, the tire rubber is just not flexible enough for me to remove the tire from the rim.

 

6.  The rim shown by 30DodgePanel is exactly what mine looks like, which I unlocked to use a rim spreader to get at the old inner tube and replace it.  I then relocked the rim.

[HBergh]

Here are pictures of the other front wheel for reference:  The back side of the hub fits over the ridge on the rim, while the front sides are flush.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by HBergh
Addition (see edit history)

[Mark Gregush]

The rim has to be collapsed using a rim jack to remove the tire. A tire shop will not have the tools needed to do this job. 

Model T Ford Forum: Split rim questions (mtfca.com)

You are mounting the rim on the felloe. The hub is the center part of the wheel that the spokes mount into, the felloe is the metal part at the other end of the spokes that rim slides onto which is held in place by the lugs or clamps. 

[JFranklin]

Could the rim have been bent replacing the tube? Is the taller ridge towards the rear? I can't think of anything else that would cause this problem.

[Bloo]

The rim (light green) needs to slide on the felloe (dark green) from the outside. Never should the rim be as far over the felloe as it is in those pictures. There should never be any reason to take the wheels off unless you want to work on the brakes or wheel bearings. That is the whole point of demountable rims. You take the four wedges off and slide the rim off of the felloe. The rim (light green) and tire come off together. Everything else stays behind, always.

 

A ridge on the rim (light green) will bump against some other ridge on the felloe (dark green) stopping it from going any further in. It is already way further in than should be possible in these pics.

 

I see from @30DodgePanel's post that these rims (light green) have four notches in one of the ridges. We must figure out whether the notched ridge goes in or out. Do your four wedges engage those four notches? You could temporarily take one wedge off of the good wheel to see if there is a notch directly underneath.

 

There has to be some way for the rim (light green) to be locked to the felloe (dark green) to keep the rim (light green) from spinning on the felloe (dark green). If it spins it breaks the valve stem off. Different demountable rim manufacturers accomplished this in different ways. There were hundreds. It is likely that is what the four notches are for.

 

If the four wedges do NOT engage the four notches on the rim (light green), then there must be four tabs that you would be able to see on the felloe (dark green) to engage them, and the notched rib would go in.

 

If the four wedges DO engage the four notches, then the notched ridge must go out.

 

Either way the tire and rim (light green) MUST slide over the felloe (dark green) from the outside, and one of the ridges of the rim (light green) will bottom out on a ridge on the felloe (dark green). It does not tip or anything like that, except maybe a little to get the valve stem started. It slides mostly straight on from the outside until it stops.

 

There cannot ever during this process be elements of the rim (light green) and it's ridges beyond the inner lip of the felloe (dark green) as shown in the pic below.

 

 

[Minibago]

3 hours ago, Bloo said:

The rim (light green) needs to slide on the felloe (dark green) from the outside. Never should the rim be as far over the felloe as it is in those pictures. There should never be any reason to take the wheels off unless you want to work on the brakes or wheel bearings. That is the whole point of demountable rims. You take the four wedges off and slide the rim off of the felloe. The rim (light green) and tire come off together. Everything else stays behind, always.

 

A ridge on the rim (light green) will bump against some other ridge on the felloe (dark green) stopping it from going any further in. It is already way further in than should be possible in these pics.

 

I see from @30DodgePanel's post that these rims (light green) have four notches in one of the ridges. We must figure out whether the notched ridge goes in or out. Do your four wedges engage those four notches? You could temporarily take one wedge off of the good wheel to see if there is a notch directly underneath.

 

There has to be some way for the rim (light green) to be locked to the felloe (dark green) to keep the rim (light green) from spinning on the felloe (dark green). If it spins it breaks the valve stem off. Different demountable rim manufacturers accomplished this in different ways. There were hundreds. It is likely that is what the four notches are for.

 

If the four wedges do NOT engage the four notches on the rim (light green), then there must be four tabs that you would be able to see on the felloe (dark green) to engage them, and the notched rib would go in.

 

If the four wedges DO engage the four notches, then the notched ridge must go out.

 

Either way the tire and rim (light green) MUST slide over the felloe (dark green) from the outside, and one of the ridges of the rim (light green) will bottom out on a ridge on the felloe (dark green). It does not tip or anything like that, except maybe a little to get the valve stem started. It slides mostly straight on from the outside until it stops.

 

There cannot ever during this process be elements of the rim (light green) and it's ridges beyond the inner lip of the felloe (dark green) as shown in the pic below.

 

 

The reason the rim (light green) is so far back from the front of the wheel felloe (dark green) is because it has been fitted from the back.

Please see my previous post.

Put the wheel back on the car.

Fit the rim and tyre.

 

[Minibago]

 

I a perplexed by item 5.

The tyre complete with the rim

 

 

is removed in one piece inflated or not, no flexibility required.

[Minibago]

The tyre is removed once the rim and tyre assembly are removed from the car.

 

 

[HBergh]

Thanks everyone.  At this point in time the main problem is the inability of separating the felloe from the rim to try refitting them.  Putting the complete wheel back on the car does not help to perform this needed separation.

 

 

[Minibago]

Just to clarify please.

You have somehow fitted the tyre and rim onto the rear of the wheel and now cannot remove it.

Is this correct?

[Mark Gregush]

Ya got it on so its got to come back off! Get a bigger crowbar.  

[HBergh]

TO MINIBAGO:  From what I see, the rim with the tire can only be mounted onto the felloe one way:  With the felloe and spokes still mounted on the car, the rim needs to be pushed on while lining up the slots on the rim with the bolts on the felloe and the valve stem, which is the reverse of taking of the rim and tire and what I tried to do.  I'm not sure what you mean by " rear of the wheel".  Do you mean the inside side of the wheel; the side having the brake drum?

 

MARK GREGUSH:   You are 100% correct, but so far I'm unable to separate the felloe from the rim to try to start the process over again.

 

Thanks again

Edited August 15, 2023 by HBergh (see edit history)

[Minibago]

When looking at the wheel on the car the outside of the wheel is the front.

 

 

The inside of the wheel (the side behind the front) is the back.

 

I am at a loss to understand your predicament as the wheel felloe is designed with a larger diameter lip on the rear to hold the rim with the nuts and keepers on the front pulling the rim up tight against this lip.

 

So logic says it cannot be fitted from the back but also that it cannot go too far over the lip from the front. I note your opening statement.

 

The tyre and rim should fit onto the wheel using your hands only, lining up the inflation valve in the hole provided and the locating tongue to prevent rotation during braking.

 

so more information please.
Did you or your local tyre shop use an hydraulic press to push the rim onto the wheel?

Perhaps past / over the back lip?

 

 

 

[HBergh]

TO MINIBAGO--Thanks for your front and back clarification.  I agree with everything you suggest, especially not knowing how my wheel ended up in this predicament. No hydraulic press was ever used on this wheel.  Even though I somehow got the wheel into this undesirable state, I should be able to reverse whatever I did but it seems to be an impossible task at this time.  It appears that I will just have to find another complete wheel to replace this one.

[JFranklin]

Whatever you did, if you get it apart or find another, don't do it again. You might ask for help at a local auto or machine shop as they should be able to figure it out.

[Minibago]

In my experience here in Australia the tyre fitters have no experience nor expertise with our wheels and with the best of intentions, not understanding how they should work can do more damage using their equipment.

 

I am at a loss to understand that if the rim with tyre mounted was offered up to the front of the wheel, (inflated or not) how it can have possibly gone over the lip on the felloe (wheel) and now be jammed past it.

 

The only way I can see this happening is if:

 

A. The rim is a size too big.

But you say this rim came off this wheel.

 

B. The rim has opened up under pressure.

But the tyre should prevent this and the tyre and rim do not look like this has happened.

[Minibago]

Did you fit the tyre and rim onto the front of the wheel or the back?

[Bullfrog_eng]

Like the others, I am puzzled how this has occured, but it has so we must fix it. I agree with the other comments, but be aware that minibago's photos are not quite the same as a DA wheel. His are a bit earlier and do not have the slots for the four wheel clamps (or whatever they are called!) but more importantly they do not have the mechanism that 30DodgePanel showed in photo above. This is used to break the rim and most DA's have them, it does away with the tool for breaking the rim that minibago shows above, but more importantly it is quite bulky. If your rim had this, you cannot just drop the rim straight on the felloe, you need to the drop the part of the rim that has this on first, so that it drops into the well of the felloe, then it should give you enough room to drop the other side on. It follows that to remove the rim and tire, you must start at the oposite side to the rim join. It also occurs to me that it that mechanism could be jammed on a spoke where it protudes through the felloe. you may need to rotate the rim slightly to clear this. Sorry about this description, I hope it makes sense. I looked for my spares, but I cannot access them at the moment. I know a photo would be better. Good luck, John

Edited August 15, 2023 by Bullfrog_eng
typo (see edit history)

[Jim Anselmo]

You might try removing the 4 bolts from the felloe just in case the rim is caught on one of them?

 

[HBergh]

Just to clarify an issue that has been stated:  I attempted to remount the tire and rim from the front side of the wheel felloe while the felloe was still on the car, because that was the only way for the notches on the rim to mate up with the bolts on the felloe for the clamps.  I started by lining up the inner tube valve stem and then began pushing on the tire and rim onto the felloe.  When it became obvious to me that I was not succeeding with the merge, that's when I removed the whole wheel from the car.  Unfortunately, I still have not made any progress.  HB 

[Minibago]

Hi HB,

 

My question is

 

If you fitted from the front, (the hub side not the drum side) how did you get the tyre / rim to go past the felloe lip as shown in your photos?

 

 

 

 

 

[Minibago]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:07 PM, Bullfrog_eng said:

Like the others, I am puzzled how this has occured, but it has so we must fix it. I agree with the other comments, but be aware that minibago's photos are not quite the same as a DA wheel. His are a bit earlier and do not have the slots for the four wheel clamps (or whatever they are called!) but more importantly they do not have the mechanism that 30DodgePanel showed in photo above. This is used to break the rim and most DA's have them, it does away with the tool for breaking the rim that minibago shows above, but more importantly it is quite bulky. If your rim had this, you cannot just drop the rim straight on the felloe, you need to the drop the part of the rim that has this on first, so that it drops into the well of the felloe, then it should give you enough room to drop the other side on. It follows that to remove the rim and tire, you must start at the oposite side to the rim join. It also occurs to me that it that mechanism could be jammed on a spoke where it protudes through the felloe. you may need to rotate the rim slightly to clear this. Sorry about this description, I hope it makes sense. I looked for my spares, but I cannot access them at the moment. I know a photo would be better. Good luck, John

It has occurred but until we understand what has been done we cannot offer accurate advice.

My pictures are of an earlier type as that is all I had at the time however the wooden wheel steel outer felloe whilst smaller in diameter has the same retaining lip on the rear (drum side) of the felloe.

If the tyre and rim have been fitted with the wheel on the car, was lined up and pushed on but would not go fully on as stated by HB then how has it gone past the lip on the back (drum side) of the wheel?

 

Front, no lip.

 

 

Rear, lip.

 

Forget lining it up, forget jamming on something, the tyre and rim have been fitted to go over the lip on the back of the wheel felloe.

 

A physical impossibility unless the rim has been spread or it is of a larger, incorrect size.

In order to offer the correct advice to solve the problem then the questions asked need to be answered.

 

 

[Kevin bc]

Kevin BC here

If I remember correctly with my Dodge DC wheels, I found that in my case it was neccessary to have all the bolts removed to replace the rim, I think it just made it a lot easier, but I still had to use a rubber hammer to just tap the rim into place, as the rims do not settle in a 100% round shape, when they are snapped  shut, and dont settle in place till they are all bolted up tight.Having to insert the valve stem first thus putting the rim at an angle to the wheel means you have two slightly different diameters in play which causes the slight jam between the rim and the hub, and this is where the rubber hammer comes into play.I USALLY GIVE THEM QUITE A WACK TO GET THEM TO POP INTO PLACE I presume that if the bolts are still in there the angle of the holes may foul the the bolts adding more pressure to the problem. Removing the bolts to take it off make it easier too I found, once again just give them a hit with the rubber hammer, and they will pop out easily. The threads on the bolts, are pretty coarse and forgiving of a rubber hammer.

[Minibago]

I agree with all you have said Kevin but this still does not address the issue of the tyre and rim being too far in and over the rear lip.

[Kevin bc]

Minnibago

I wonder if the rim  was inserted at a too  sharp an angle to start with, I have just changed a tube recently, and am trying to remember the event as the rim slipped on quite easily, I am pretty certain I didnt have the rim at such a sharp angle as I replaced the rim, having said that the lip on my rim is like a roll not a acute lip like the wheel in question has , so thats my reasoning for thinking in this case the angle was too great and it is stuck across that lip , and I definetly think those bolts have to come out, before there will be any success,I think one of those bolts must be fouling in a hole or on the locating piece of metal if it has one as mine does.

I also wonder if the rim could be out of round???, and the wheel has just hit  the narrowest part of the rim.

I just went and checked one of my rims, and discovered that you cannot remove my rims without taking the bolts out as one hole  in the wheel rim has a steel cover over it, and if bolt is not removed  the rim would sit on top of the bolt and not seat into the rim, and cause the problem  at hand maybe

H Burgh sorry for talking around you, but we are trying to brainstorm your problem and get a solution for you

Kevin

 

[Minibago]

Hi Kevin,
All suggestions are covering an issue of not seating properly.

 

This issue relates to moving past the seating lip. In the photos supplied the rim has moved past the retaining lip by more than an inch. 

 

Your suggestion of elongation (Ovality) due to damage during the inner tube change has merit but would only cause the rim and tyre to not go on the wheel unless fitted at an extreme angle.

 

My questions are to H Berg.
Once we understand clearly how the installation happened we can provide a sensible solution.

 

1. Is the rim the one that came off this wheel in the first place.

2. Was the rim fitted from the outside (front) not the drum side.

 

[HBergh]

Here are some follow-up responses to all my Dodge Brothers friends out there.  By the way, please note that I am very grateful for all of you trying to help me.  I know if you were all here with my wheel, the resolution would be forthcoming.  Trouble shooting via text only is not the easiest way for a problem such I have.  

 

1. If you fitted from the front, (the hub side not the drum side) how did you get the tyre / rim to go past the felloe lip as shown in your photos?

Answer:  I don't have an answer to this question because I don't know.  To me it’s like an accident; when one tries to figure out how an accident happened the answer is not clear because it happened so fast.

 

2.  If the tyre and rim have been fitted with the wheel on the car, was lined up and pushed on but would not go fully on as stated by HB then how has it gone past the lip on the back (drum side) of the wheel?

Answer:  Sorry, again, I don't know

 

3.  A physical impossibility unless the rim has been spread or it is of a larger, incorrect size.  In order to offer the correct advice to solve the problem then the questions asked need to be answered.

Answer:   Bullfrog earlier mentioned the rim locking device.  I did open this lock in preparation to replace the tube, but I was unable to get enough access to remove the inner tube, so I hooked up a rim spreader to compress the rim a little more.  So with that recollection, perhaps that action changed the characteristics of the rim even though the locking device was properly returned to its locked position after replacing the tube and tire.

 

4.  You might try removing the 4 bolts from the felloe just in case the rim is caught on one of them?

Answer:  My bolts can be wiggled but have some kind of permanent retainer on them,  which means I would have to pound the bolts out, which I rather doubt was recommended by the wheel designers.  Plus, all the bolts seem to have plenty of clearance within the felloe.  Remember that the tire and rim spare should be change-able on the road.

 

5.  Is the rim the one that came off this wheel in the first place.

Answer: Yes, the rim is the one I took off originally.

 

6. Was the rim fitted from the outside (front) not the drum side.

Answer:  Yes, the rim was refitted from the front onto the mounted felloe.

 

7.  I have used a block of wood with a hammer on the felloe.  This technique will move the felloe up to the ridge on one side of the rim, opposite to the valve stem and rim locking device.  And then I can reverse this movement without gaining any headway over either ridge.

HB

[keiser31]

If I may suggest something....can you remove the tire and tube from the band as it sits in the cocked position? If so, you may be able to get a screwdriver or tire iron on the band to remove it from the felloe. Having the tire and tube off may give the band more flexibility to remove it. That way you can start the process over.

Edited August 19, 2023 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Minibago]

HB.

Based on your response it seems to me that the retaining lip on the rear of the wheel felloe is quite small.
I use the following illustration only as an example.

 

 

This is a DA wheel showing the very small lip.

 

It seems you must have pushed the rim over the lip and as the inner edge of the rim is tapered to seat on the lip it could open up the rim.

The outer rim edge has a raised boss to clamp onto.

Again, not the correct rim simply as an example. Inner tapered side to the left in the photos

The raised boss is somewhat bigger than the tapered side so a smaller inside diameter. Therefore the rim needs to come back over the wheel lip.

(Away from the brake drum)

Not sure if this is achievable without further damage to the wheel lip. Levers will need to be employed.

 

Question.

Is the clamp secure? Perhaps it has opened allowing some rim movement?

You are correct in saying this is difficult by text.

Good luck, it is very expensive lose a wheel, rim and tyre.

 

[HBergh]

I'm unable to see the complete rim clamp but from what I can see it is still closed.  There is a locking pin that would not come out easily.  As a follow-up to your discussion about the ridges on the rim, I wanted to include a picture of part of the rim on my spare tire which includes the valve stem, locking device, the taller front ridge, the smaller inside ridge and one notch for a clamp.  

 

Keiser31:  I have made a small attempt to remove the tire in its current condition but that tire is not flexible at all.  I have since located a 6-ft pry bar which may provide enough lever-arm to open up the tire off the rim.  With that kind of leverage, I will need someone to hold down the tire!

Edited August 21, 2023 by HBergh (see edit history)

[Mark Gregush]

Mount the wheel back on the car. 

[JFranklin]

I agree, let the car hold your wheel and your muscles are free to work the rim loose.