Bloo Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 Is the whole countershaft like that?. The gear in the pic appears to be low and/or reverse judging by it's pointy teeth. I wouldn't be too scared of running it if I absolutely had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 21 Author Share Posted August 21 I meant to take a picture of the whole thing this morning but i was running late for work. It's just the one gear on the one shaft (center gear on the countershaft). None of the other gears have this pitting. I'm kind of thinking it was a heat treat issue from the factory. If it was environmental or related to some chemistry more of them would look like this. Of course, I have no way of knowing if this is the countershaft that the car left the factory with either. Someone could have replaced it at some point in the last 82 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 I have never seen a situation like the pitting (or whatever) on that gear. But if it on the reverse and not 2nd gear it would probably last for a long time. 2nd gear I would replace it. The wear on the thrust washers is strange, the bores are sure wallowed out badly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 You might try Dennis Marordas 606 237 6648. He had everything I needed. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Century Eight Posted August 21 Share Posted August 21 I am glad you are doing this thread. I have a ‘40 Special in hibernation that is doing this same thing. I ran across another transmission that I bought a few years ago, but it may have it’s own problems. When I put it back on the road, I will be grateful to read what you finally come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 It's time for another episode of "Tales from the Crypt". I suspect that my synchros and the countershaft are some sort of aftermarket parts from a long gone era. The countershaft has a bushing in it instead of bearings. I can't find any reference to that in my parts books. They all show bearings. Also, the gear has "WT" on it. I'm not sure if that's a GM marking. The synchros have the same markings. If the gears are aftermarket, it probably would explain an inconsistency in heat treating/QC. Likely that explains the thrust washers too. I don't know when the trans was rebuilt, but they must not have used OEM replacement parts. Also, the face of the synchros look quite intact, but there is a ton of embedded material in there. I have another set and I think I'll use them just for GP. You can see those chunks in there. They don't wipe off. They seemto be pretty well embedded in the grooves. There's no scoring on the mating surfaces of the gears. But I'd rather not risk it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 If you going to use needle bearings, I have the tool that Don Micheletti made and gave me that you are welcome to use (it is made out of plastic very light weight) You can also borrow the transmission stand I made (makes it easier to work on transmission) also copied with help of Don Micheletti Pictures of these 2 items is on one earlier posts here. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 Thanks, for the offer Bob. I may take you up on that. I found a countershaft at Bobs. I bought it without thinking about whether or not it had the spacer that I will need for the bearings. I called them this morning and it already shipped. So I have to wait until it gets here to find out. I found a NOS spacer but it's really pricey. Hopefully the "used" gear still has it in there. In the mean time, I'll keep cleaning. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 The earlier ('38) transmissions had bushings in the cluster gear on the Specials, the Centurys and Roadmasters had needle beatings. Your situation with the bushings is interesting. You wouldn't need that tool to reassemble the cluster with the bushings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 22 Author Share Posted August 22 6 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said: The earlier ('38) transmissions had bushings in the cluster gear on the Specials, the Centurys and Roadmasters had needle beatings. Your situation with the bushings is interesting. You wouldn't need that tool to reassemble the cluster with the bushings. Except that I don't want to use the cluster if I don't need to. Would a 1938 cluster fit this application? I suppose that still would at least point to someone being in there at some point and making a decision about rebuilding the transmission. Maybe a replacement was sourced from junkyard. I guess it will remain a mystery. It is curious to note though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly_John Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 Hi, drhach. Just let me know if this NOS sliding gear might be of help to you. This is an NOS Second and Third Speed Transmission Sliding Gear (or Sleeve). Genuine GM, in original factory box. Group 4.414, Part # 1307805. Essential for a smooth shift between 2nd and 3rd gear. Fits the following: ---1939 Buick, 40 Series ---1940-1950 Buick, 40 and 50 Series, all, without automatic trans The price for this never-used transmission gear is just $40, plus shipping. Thanks for looking. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 29 minutes ago, Jolly_John said: Hi, drhach. Just let me know if this NOS sliding gear might be of help to you. This is an NOS Second and Third Speed Transmission Sliding Gear (or Sleeve). Genuine GM, in original factory box. Group 4.414, Part # 1307805. Essential for a smooth shift between 2nd and 3rd gear. Fits the following: ---1939 Buick, 40 Series ---1940-1950 Buick, 40 and 50 Series, all, without automatic trans The price for this never-used transmission gear is just $40, plus shipping. Thanks for looking. John A bargain!! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 23 Author Share Posted August 23 Thanks John, I already bought a NOS one in anticipation of needing it. I have a NOS second gear and a pretty nice used first gear too. I don't generally pre-buy parts. But I was hoping to have everything I needed on standby when the operation started. Just in the hope of getting this done quicker. Naturally there's that one thing that you don't think you'll need... In other news, I've been pondering this and trying to come up with a theory as to why this is the only gear that's bad. At least bad in this way. I'll never really know, but I'm thinking that maybe someone pulled from their own stash of gears when this was last addressed. Maybe in the 60's or 70's when going to the parts counter was no longer an option but there were still lots of used parts around. So, the rebuilder found a pre 1942 countershaft with only "a little wear" and "pretty good" reverse idler and who knows what else. Just a guess. In the end it probably doesn't matter. It is fun to try to flesh out the story of this old car though. I'm waiting for my countershaft to get here from California and hoping it has the spacer in it. I found some NOS bearing washers and they are coming from Montana. In the meantime, I've been cleaning and painting. My clutch throw-out bearing tube didn't have a gasket on it when I removed it and I didn't realize it needed one until I put it back in. So, I'll probably take that back out and redo it this weekend. Still lots to do while I wait for parts. My goal was to get this back on the road this month. I don't think that'll happen but hopefully only 2-3 more weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly_John Posted August 23 Share Posted August 23 My hat is off to you on this project, drhach! I respect how you're sourcing NOS parts and working to cover all the possible bases. Good luck in getting your BUICK shifting smoothly. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted August 27 Author Share Posted August 27 Well, I got my countershaft yesterday and it didn't come with a spacer. Grrr. I bought it from Bob's Automobilia. I actually called them after I ordered it to confirm or deny the spacer's existence. I got a little attitude from the guy on the phone. He said the part had already shipped. But the post mark when I received the package was from the day after I called him, and tracking confirmed the same thing. So basically he didn't feel like opening it and looking. Not the first time I've experienced this when I need something special form them. I usually try to find my stuff somewhere else first anymore. The biggest frustration for me was that I had located a spacer and I could have ordered it and had it get here when the gear showed up. But it was expensive, and I didn't want to buy it unnecessarily. So I ordered it this morning and hopefully it will be here Thursday. I still have plenty of other work to do to get this car back together, but I would like to feel like one thing is actually wrapped up. Probably this weekend I'll get the transmission buttoned up; assuming I don't hit any more snags. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 4 Author Share Posted September 4 What a fiasco. The guy I bought my spacer from, put the wrong part in the box. So I got someone else's NOS Rod bolt and he got my spacer. I called the vendor and thankfully he had several spacers. He felt really bad and he (re)shipped the part expedited mail. Then guess who lost my part? Yup, the post office. They found it and got it to me (yesterday), but so much for 2-day shipping. Monday being a holiday didn't help my cause. I was able to do some other work on the car over the Labor Day weekend, but nothing regarding the transmission. I don't think there's anything more pathetic than a guy endlessly checking a tracking number hoping the information will change :). One thing that really has me worried right now is the keeper for the reverse idler shaft. The manual says to use a new pin and to seal it with white lead. I don't think I'll be able to find any white lead so I'm considering alternatives, and I don't have a new pin. I'm thinking maybe Gasoila thread sealer, or... I don't know. I'm really paranoid about this thing vibrating loose. To me this is a horrible design. There should be a threaded pin instead. I know they made millions of them but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 17 hours ago, drhach said: The manual says to use a new pin and to seal it with white lead. I don't think I'll be able to find any white lead so I'm considering alternatives, and I don't have a new pin. Red Loctite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 2 hours ago, EmTee said: Red Loctite? I debated about that. I didn't want to make it impossible to remove if someone needs to get in there again. I considered maybe blue instead. In the end I went with a thread sealant. I feel better about what's going on with that thing. The pin is kind of swaged on the end has a bit of a taper. So it is a tight fit. I actually had to drive it in with a punch. I've never used "white lead" before. It's a little before my time. I did some research and basically it was a kind of pipe dope/thread sealant. Long unavailable because of the lead. I think Buick recommended that just to give the last bit of sealing in the hole. I ended up using Gasoila thread sealant which is meant to do the same thing. The interference fit locks the pin in place and the thread sealant just adds a little leak protection. It is clever the way they did this, but I still think it's a bad design. A threaded fastener with a pin on the end would be better in my mind. But they built millions of these across multiple years and brands. So, what do I know? I'm sure this was probably a cheaper solution. Anyway, I got the reverse idler shaft and countershaft installed last night. The bearings in the counter shaft took me a few tries but I got it. I'd like to just sit down and get this thing together in one go, but I have a lot of commitments this week. So I'll have to pick away at it here and there. It's probably better that way. I can take my time and be sure of what I'm doing. Regards, Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 You may have to lower the cluster gear to get the other gearsets in if I remember correctly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 (edited) By "Cluster gear" do you mean the countershaft or the idler? Sorry, I'm not following. Don, I went back and looked at the video that you and Neil made when you did his transmission. First of all, thanks for doing that. But also, my heart just sank when I watched the first one. When you were installing the countershaft gear, you pretty clearly laid out an internal washer that goes into the gear set after the spacer. So, it's spacer, washer, bearings, washer, thrust washer. I don't have those inner washers. I questioned that when I put the set together but my parts book doesn't show washers, so I figured they must not be needed. It seemed odd, but it matched the picture. I don't know how to even find the part number if the book doesn't call it out. Anyone have two of these washers that they'd be willing to part with? I'm desperate. Edited September 5 by drhach (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 Well, I don't know what's going on. I found an exploded view of a Pontiac 3 speed which was basically a Buick unit with a different tailshaft. I believe Oldsmobile used these from this time period as well. The spacer/washer is there. I have three different parts books for Buick. One goes up to 1942, On goes to 1951 and one goes to 1967. none of them show this inner washer. Has there been a typo in Buick parts books for the last 80+ years? I can't find a part number or anything that references it in any of the Buick Literature that I have. The shop manual says, in a somewhat obfuscated way says that they're there. I have some hardened steel, I may just make them on my lathe. The thing that thew me was that it had an older countershaft with a pressed in bushing. So none of this stuff was in there to begin with. I've been going by the pictures to figure out what to order, but the pictures are wrong. I guess it's too late to have Buick update the drawings Here's the Pontiac diagram I found online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 (edited) I have a 1950 & 1955 Oldsmobile parts books and illustrations is the same as Buicks, 1950 & 1958 all look the same as yours. BUT 1962 Buick Illustration show them: AK=group 4.423 washer, transmission counter gear bearing part # 1315274 (7/8" ID x 1 1/16" OD x .048") And AI= group 4.426 spacer, transmission countershaft bearing part #1319013 (57/64" ID x 4 7/8") I may have spares of these and if I do I will mail them to you. ALL Buick and Olds parts manuals list these group & part numbers, just NO ILLUSTRATION of part. Bob Edited September 6 by NailheadBob (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 Thanks Bob, I did see some part numbers that I couldn't reconcile to the pictures as well. I know that the bigger models had some different part numbers. It's hard for me to decipher some of that stuff. I'll PM you. Regards, Dan Hach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 Dan, I will mail you washers and spacers you need for transmission Please don’t send any money for these items Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 6 Author Share Posted September 6 Thank you so much Bob. That is very kind of you. I owe you one. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 Well, here goes nothing. I got it buttoned up last night. I was too tired to wrestle it. So, that's my job this weekend. I checked and double checked everything. I think I may need to revisit the torque ball one more time. It's pretty stiff. Wish me luck. Dan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 Looks great, I have confidence on your work that it will function fine what 2 different color paint did you use and what brand Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 Hi Bob, thanks for the vote of confidence. Both paints are VHT engine paints. The transmission body color used to be called "Nu-cast". I think they call it something else now. But it is meant to replicate cast iron. The cover is the same but aluminum. I just Googled it and it looks like it's called "Flame Proof" now. Probably neither piece needed to be painted but I figured since I cleaned off all of that rust preventing grease and oil, I might do something. Follow on question. What level of tightness should I expect from the torque ball? It seems like some areas are tighter than others. Should I play to the lowest common denominator in terms of tightness? It seems like if I do that, I get some end play with the ball perfectly centered. I suppose it will be taken up by the seal when I put that in. I read Neil Morse's thread regarding this and that seems to be what is being said there, but I figured I'd check. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 You've referenced the procedure outlined in my thread (from Don Micheletti). I think that's all you need to know. But I'm a little confused by your question. Did you follow the procedure with the paper gaskets outlined in my thread? What "seal" are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 16 hours ago, drhach said: What level of tightness should I expect from the torque ball? If you followed Don's procedure it should be fine. When I did the torque ball seal on my '38 I struggled with the same question. In the end, I set mine up so that it had a fair amount of resistance, but I could move it around with one hand using a short wooden dowel (e.g., broomstick). I decided to err in the direction of 'tight', rather than 'loose'. It's been 2 years and 1 ~ 2 Kmi since then and my torque ball is bone dry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 I'm talking about the torque ball seal that goes in the outer cover. That goes on after setup and it makes it much tighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 When determining which shims to use (as mentioned in Neils post), you can expect some minor looseness at the center point. However if there is significant end play at the center, you may not have a lasting seal since the seal will be doing all the force transmission, not he ball itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 I was able to get it pretty good. The manual say to tap the cover as you rotate the ball and tighten the bolts. I did my best octopus impression and went for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted Tuesday at 02:51 PM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 02:51 PM Well, she's back on all fours. I buttoned it up last night and took it for a test drive. I felt like an expectant Father and I had to keep telling myself not to go into a tailspin if something went wrong. I have to say that it went very well. First gear is more like what I would have expected in terms of noise. It's much quieter now. You can still here the whine a little bit, but it doesn't sound like a box of marbles anymore. The manual seems to imply that "they all do that", but not this bad. Shifting is very positive. It's smooth but you can definitely feel when it engages unlike before. I have to put some miles on it and check for leaks. I suppose there will be some "bedding in" as all the new parts start working together. But i drove the car to work today which is the farthest I've ventured out since I got the car. In the end I installed a new (used) first gear, A new (used) countershaft, a new (NOS) second gear, a new (NOS) sliding gear two new (used) synchros. Of course also seals, clips and thrust washers and I had to source all of the internal components for the countershaft. I didn't replace the two outer bearings. They were actually in very good shape and Made in the USA. SO basically, I replaced 90% of the internals. It could be argued that I could've bought a new transmission. But all I was able to find were used units and in the end, you may be buying someone else's problems. Also, you don't learn anything if you do it that way. Hopefully this thing will be good for another 80 years. Thank you so much to everyone who helped with this; specifically, Don MIcheletti and Nailhead Bob. Also, if anyone is pondering this, Neil Morse's rebuild videos are indispensable. They supplemented many nuances to assembly that are not in the manual. Also, I am sold on guide pins. I made some for the transmission and the torque tube. It made a huge difference. Thanks again for the support. Regards, Dan 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted Tuesday at 05:32 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 05:32 PM Dan, Great to hear it all turned out well. And thanks for the compliment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted Tuesday at 06:46 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 06:46 PM Dan, Great news on your transmission I also agree on guide pins for transmission and torque tube I also made guide pins for Dynaflow transmission Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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