marcapra Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 I'm having a problem with my 48 DeSoto chassis shifting. It doesn't want to to shift into gear. When I shift and hold it up or down, I can get the driveshaft turning, but can't shift into the gear. In the video you will notice my driveshaft wobbling. I've already fixed that. In the second video I removed the clutch pan and looked at the clutch action. I was thinking that maybe I can't shift into gear because my clutch might not be releasing fully from the driveplate. Does it look normal to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 Here is the second video showing a worm's eye view with the clutch pan removed. It doesn't seem like the clucth disc is moving very far away from the driving plate. Is this normal? I can get it to move farther away from the plate, but then will no pedal free play. Any ideas? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 That friction plate looks pretty cracked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 Agree. That plate looks pretty suspect. Freeplay not the problem. I think the linings are dragging. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ltc4748 Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 Looks to me that the linings may be stuck to the pressure plate and flywheel. If you have the transmission in neutral and have anther person depress the clutch the clutch disc must be able to be moved with a screwdriver or wood stick with ease. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) Well I guess it's out with the transmission again! I hope it's not the pressure plate. I don't think they sell those. I hope it's bad clutch! Edited April 22, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFeeney Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 Pressure plates should be easy to find or a clutch shop could rebuild yours. As previously mentioned sometimes the clutch plate bonds to the flywheel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 As suggested, have someone hold down the pedal and take a screwdriver and make sure the clutch plate is not stuck to the pressure plate (clutch cover). In your video it doesn't look like it is releasing on that side. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) Engine is idling way too fast for a start. Should idle down to 400 RPM when warm, about half the speed of a late model car. Front universal is way out of true. It doesn't even look like the correct "mechanic's" universal joint as if someone has changed it to a cross type and half assed it. Clutch looks messed up. So, right there you have enough work to keep you busy for a while. Do you have a copy of the factory repair manual? Edited April 22, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 (edited) I think the u-joint is good as I said before. Yes, I have a copy of everything including multiple shop manuals, Parts Lists, the MTSC filmstrip kits and Chilton Motor Age books, and On Restoration by Matt Joseph, etc. I'm very book oriented. Edited April 22, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 23, 2023 Author Share Posted April 23, 2023 (edited) I don't think the clutch plate is stuck to the pressure plate as several months ago I did take the bell housing off and the clutch fell out after I removed the cover bolts. I remember taking the clutch to the well known Southland Clutch Store in National City because I accidently turned the wrong bolts on the clutch. They pronounced my clutch and throwout bearing still good since they rebuilt it 40 years ago. The engine hasn't been run since then, until now. But I'm still taking it out so I can find out what is malfunctioning. Edited April 23, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 I can see now that your clutch is disengaging as the drive line stops. Not being familiar with these trannys I can't give any more suggestions. I do remember that you have to idle way down for them to shift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ltc4748 Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 Since the driveshaft stops when you only push the clutch in, the clutch is not stuck. I noticed that when you try to engage another gear the driveline begins to turn. Have you put a tachometer on the engine and checked what the idle speed is? Keep the idle as low as you can when warm, check your shop manual for what is recommended. If idle speed is correct it the clutch plate must be dragging between the flywheel and the pressure plate. Either the disc is not true/flat or the pressure plate does not release correctly. To see if it will release adjust the clutch pedal to zero freeplay temporarily and do the same test again. If it will shift then you know for sure there is not enough clearance for the clutch disc. Look at the clutch facings if you take it out again. they should not be visibly moving when you squeeze the facings together with your fingers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 23, 2023 Author Share Posted April 23, 2023 Yes, my idle speed is too fast. It should be only 450 rpm. I should say that the car is not wired yet, but is started by hot wiring it. So the electrical shifting from 1st to 2nd or 3rd to 4th can't happen. I didn't think a high idle would make a difference since I think you can shift gears from high to low or vice versa when the engine is still running fast. But I could be wrong about that. I will do that test about adjusting the clutch so there is no free play. I already did that test, but with the engine off. I think I showed that in the video. When I did that, the clutch disc moved farther away from the pressure plate. I did a test where I put the transmission in the high range before starting the engine. And then started the engine in gear and it ran fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFeeney Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 Did you install the clutch disc the right direction. As I remember one side has a hub and I think it went to the rear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 24, 2023 Author Share Posted April 24, 2023 I'm pretty sure I installed it correctly, but that's a good question. I think the hub side goes to the rear. I just found out my assistant can't come to work tomorrow or for longer, so I'm going to have to some more of the get on my back work myself. I just pulled the transmission. Tomorrow I'm going to pull the clutch pan, and I think I can pull the clutch without having to remove the bell housing. Then I can look at the pressure plate and take the clutch to the shop in National City where it was rebuilt in the 80s! That is, if it is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFeeney Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 Clutch pedal free play is important and often overlooked . If set to tight the clutch release forks won't leave enough room for the release bearing to move away from the pressure plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted April 25, 2023 Share Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) The clutch disc can only be installed the correct way in a fluid drive coupling. The disc cannot be put in backwards. Edited April 25, 2023 by c49er (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 25, 2023 Author Share Posted April 25, 2023 I removed the clutch pan and the clutch today. I looked at the driving plate on the fluid drive and the pressure plate in the clutch cover, as well as the disc. Everything looks ok to me, but I'm not a clutch expert. I might take it in to the clutch shop tomorrow for the owner, who is familiar with fluid drive, to check it out. I wonder if the overcenter spring could have something to do with the problem. I did use the special gauge C-705 to align the overcenter spring to shop manual specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 26, 2023 Author Share Posted April 26, 2023 (edited) On 4/22/2023 at 8:31 AM, keiser31 said: That friction plate looks pretty cracked. I took the clutch into a great clutch shop in National City called Southland Clutch. The owner of the shop has decades of experience with clutches. He said there was too much slop between the clutch disc wafers and whoever put the cushion springs in didn't rivet them in the correct spots. So Keiser was kind of right that the clutch looked cracked. But the driving plate is fine. The new clutch disc is on the left and the old one is on the right. The first pic is of the side view of the old disc, and the fourth pic shows the tighter new disc. I Can't wait to get the new disc installed and check it out. This may solve my shifting problem! Edited April 26, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFeeney Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 Keep us updated with your progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 27, 2023 Author Share Posted April 27, 2023 (edited) Ok, thanks. I put the new clutch disc in today and centered it with an input shaft that's the same as the one on my transmission. Then, I tightened the clutch cover bolts. then, I put in the fork and clutch release bearing. Then, I tried to put the shaft in again, but it wouldn't go in. Maybe I should loosen the cover bolts and put the shaft through the release bearing and clutch, and then tighten up the bolts. The release bearing didn't look like it was in there straight. So I will try again tomorrow. I also have to put the clutch pan on to test the clutch action because the hook for the clutch return spring is on the clutch pan. Edited April 27, 2023 by marcapra (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted April 27, 2023 Share Posted April 27, 2023 Dis you have the clutch surfaced? It looks kinda dull or dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 27, 2023 Author Share Posted April 27, 2023 They said my pressure plate was fine and I just needed to give it a sanding to give the clutch disc something to connect on. They said the pressure plate shouldn't be shiny smooth. Now I have a new problem. I can't put the fork over the pivot ball, or if I do, I can't snap the clips over the release bearing. I'm thinking maybe I could do it if I remove the pivot ball and put it back after I connect the release bearing. That's hard to do, but with a friend helping, I think I could do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 I finally finagled the release bearing and fork inside the bell housing. Then I reset the overcenter spring using the special Miller gauge to align it. My new problem is I can't fit the mainshaft into the clutch all the way. The splines are stopping it. So I loosened all of the clutch cover bolts so I could have some wiggle room, but still can't fit the shaft all the way in. It fits in easily when I don't have the release bearing and fork in, so they are causing the clutch alignment to be a bit off. I'm just going to have to keep trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 I'm a bit stumped as I've done this job before. With the release bearing and fork out, I can put the mainshaft all the way in. I've tried loosening the cover bolts and tightening the cover bolts with the shaft all the way in. but when I pull out the shaft to put the release bearing in, I can't get the mainshaft back in. What to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted April 28, 2023 Share Posted April 28, 2023 Is the release bearing jammed between the housing and the clutch plate? as in not enough room? the pressure plate fingers may be out too far. How far is it from not going all the way in? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 That's a good point. I don't know the answer, but it is a tight fit in there. I assume the clutch shop made sure the fingers were right, but that could be a problem. I guess I could take the clutch out and check the fingers and take it back to Southland Clutch if they are too far out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 28, 2023 Author Share Posted April 28, 2023 I'm confused now. This time I put the release bearing and fork in with no problem, and put the mainshaft in with no problem as well. The problem I'm having now is with the overcenter spring and setting the turnbuckle in the right position. I do have the Chrysler special gauge for the overspring, but can't seem to find the sweet spot where the clutch pedal returns after it is pressed down. I've had this problem before, but am not quite sure how I fixed it. I think it has something to do with the turnbuckle, so I'm playing around with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted April 28, 2023 Share Posted April 28, 2023 An overcenter spring is exactly what it sounds like. There should be a point where it goes "over center" and starts helping you push the pedal down instead of fighting you. You should be able to feel where that point is when you are paying close attention and looking for it. That over center point where you feel a change needs to be partway down, but I'm not sure how far. Shooting from the hip, my guess is it goes over center too soon, but I am not seeing the overcenter spring at all in the video, only a return spring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 29, 2023 Author Share Posted April 29, 2023 Yes, I think you are right. I've fixed this before and I'll have to fix it again. I will just have to keep playing around with it until I find the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 Maybe you now have too much "free play" on the pedal. I'm thinking the clutch plate spring force should override the over center spring. The pedal shouldn't go to the floor from just the spring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 Yes, you're right. Figured it out today. Got the clutch working good now and put the trans back in and the drive shaft back on. Also got the radiator back on, since I had to pull the oil pan and front engine apart to put in a new oil seal and gaskets to stop an oil leak at the timing cover. Now, I can start the engine and test my new clutch and shifting gears. Hope all is fixed now! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcapra Posted May 2, 2023 Author Share Posted May 2, 2023 Got the new clutch disc in and it's shifting fine now. I learned that you should not push the clutch pedal all the way down to the frame when you are shifting gears or you will get some grinding! So I have to pretend there is a floor there. Well, now I think I'm ready to start mounting the body back on and then on to wiring the new harness. Thanks to Southland Clutch for all of your help! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 EXCELLENT! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted May 2, 2023 Share Posted May 2, 2023 I agree that the floor board may help with that grinding. One of my racecars I rigged with a home done hydraulic actuator throws a bit deep. I think I am pushing the TO brng in to far. Its OK if I don't push that pedal all the way down. Its been fun watching you figure out yours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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