alsfarms Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 (edited) What is needed to hold a lens in a 1923 Dodge Bros. headlamp assembly. Does the ring and lens also use a cork gasket? Al Edited January 24, 2023 by alsfarms clarity (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 The early bullet type headlight has three hook type fittings on the body rim. The outer rim has mating lugs. The glass locates in these lugs too. The hooks start at the outer edge of the lug with a detent in the centre gap. To keep the tension on the headlight rim each hook has a curved, slotted, shaped spring steel tensioner. There should be a cork sealing gasket between the glass and the outer ring. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 (edited) My 25 headlights had a rope seal. Edited January 15, 2023 by JayG (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 Hello Minibago, from your pictures it appears that not insulating gasket was used as an isolator for installation of the lens in the ring? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Hi Al, Quite correct, another reason I enjoy this forum, I see a question, research and learn for myself too. Both my cars have no seal in either headlight. But the book says: Sadly the illustration page only shows the bucket headlamp not the bullet type. Nige. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 Hello, Which side of the headlamp lens do you surmise there is enough room for the prescribed cork gasket? (Should I attempt to install one)? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Hi Al, The gasket will need to be pretty thin and will fit between the glass and the rim to prevent water ingress, (probably a good idea to put a light smear of grease on the glass to hold the gasket in place during assembly) The glass has locating recesses which fit into the rim and prevent the glass rotating. The spring clips on the rim have often broken off. The rim is rotated about 15 degrees anti clockwise and then pushed onto the headlight body, The three springs depress, the rim is turned clockwise until it locks and then you release the pressure. Nige. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 Thanks Nige, I have an old pair of headlamps and a good surviving pair of headlamps but neither have the lenses. With your information, I will go about checking to see if either pair is any good or if I need to search again for more lights. It is my plan to hang lights on a touring car project and also a screenside, both are late 1922 or 23. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 The gasket would need to go between the lens and reflector. It is there to keep the reflector clean and help prevent tarnishing, they were silver plated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Thanks Mark and JayG, I looked more closely at one of my cars and see that I too have the round rope seal fitted with adhesive to a slight channel recess in the headlamp bowl. Good job everyone. 😊 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) FYI, there was guy selling a pair of headlights of this style who posted on the forum maybe a week ago. https://forums.aaca.org/topic/210162-1923-dodge-brothers-headlights-for-dsale/#comment-2474680 Edited January 19, 2023 by MikeC5 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 19, 2023 Author Share Posted January 19, 2023 I bought those headlights, thanks for keeping your eyes open for me. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 19, 2023 Author Share Posted January 19, 2023 Ok, I dug out the headlamps I just purchased from a fellow on this chat and the second pair of lamps I have been storing for some time. Here are my thoughts......which were wrong! I thought that the reflector was locked to the lamp body UNDER the three flat tension springs. I will post a side profile picture that shows the body and reflector from the side. I now think that the reflector is held in position by the flat spring clips and retainer devices and just basically float in that position, not locked under the flat springs. I have been shared a very good method of "fixing" the lens to the rim to form a nice tight weather proof seal by another Dodge Bro. guy. I will also post a close up picture of a reflector showing a formed groove that would be used for glue in a small round o-ring or rope seal used to seal weather from entering from the back side of the lens and into the reflective bowl of the lamp. I had not paid attention to that groove in the past. Share your additional thoughts as I want to use the best ideas for assembly, so I do not break lenses or have dust or water leaks in that location. One additional note. I guess that several Mfg's built these lamps for Dodge Bros. as both of my pairs of lamps have a different hook design fixed to the body rim. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 19, 2023 Author Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) I have another quick question as I am trying to learn. Is there a difference between lights from a 1917 Dodge and a 1923 Dodge? If so.... Would someone school me? Thanks, Al Edited January 19, 2023 by alsfarms Spelling (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 19, 2023 Author Share Posted January 19, 2023 Here is a picture of the retaining clip on the second headlamp pair. Does anyone know if the rings are interchangeable between the two? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Al, there were two bullet headlamp types (I think) early and late, not sure of year of change but 23 definitely would be late. There are differences in the rims too as pointed out to me at one car meet. I have not seen the round hook before maybe “not Dodge Brothers”? You are correct as per my first picture, the spring clip mounts in holes on the headlight bowl under the headlight reflector, it is the glass pushing against the reflector that holds it in place with the spring clip keeping tension. Once turned 10 degrees clockwise to lock in to the hooks the rim and glass hold all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Al, as I think you know I have my late '22 touring car (essentially a '23) disassembled for restoration. My headlights are original, to my knowledge. Since I'm going to have to disassemble them sometime anyway in order to clean their interiors, would you like me to disassemble one of them now and take pictures for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 20, 2023 Author Share Posted January 20, 2023 22 Touring, that would be great to see what your lamps are as I am trying to learn, what I have, what I need to be correct, and if several similar designs are correct or not. Minibago, thanks for your responses. I am learning and will continue to learn in the future if those of you with experience share your knowledge. Here is another headlamp related question. Is it a fact that all Dodge Bros. headlamps came from the factory with the DB monogram on the lens? I would be sure that, in the aftermarket parts, plain lenses were available? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Al, I have two cars and two spare pairs of headlights plus four or five spare lenses. I have a pair (I think) with a clear circle and a frosted outer circle as opposed to the fluting. I am away from home right now on the way to assisting another DB owner so on my return in a couple of weeks I will pull all my spares out and join 22 in providing photos and a breakdown of what I know (as opposed to what is correct) 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 20, 2023 Author Share Posted January 20, 2023 Minibago, go and have fun in your summer weather down under. I will go ahead and enjoy the snow, cold and then mud over here! Yes, any help, from a learning standpoint is more than welcome at this moment involving headlamps. How typical are stress cracks in the spun brass rings? I have one that is stress cracked bad, another ring has only a few stress cracks. It is my guess that these rings were not adequately annealed after the original spinning/ work hardening of the manufacturing process. I am modifying an old BBQ to anneal these Dodge Bros. Headlamp rings and also a few other lights that are stress cracked and will need silver soldering before restoration and new nickel plating. I have purchased all of the electronics to allow me to set up and do some homebrew nickel plating as on these rings. We will see how that goes. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 1915 and 16 had clear flat glass, no DB or numbers. After 100 year very few brass rims do not have cracks. FWIW, in 1918 some of the rims were steel to save the brass for bullets. I have at least one of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 21, 2023 Author Share Posted January 21, 2023 Thanks for that information. How different are the headlamps bodies between the early cars and 1923? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 It is not easy living with great weather and awesome countryside you know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 When installing the seal, just use dabs of grease to hold it in place and put the split at the bottom. The split allows condensation or moisture to drain out. Try to stay away from silicone, the gas it gives off can tarnish the reflectors but small dabs in a few places to hold the seal might be ok, just don't overdo it. The whole seal does not have to be glued in, just held in place till the lens/bezel is installed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 21, 2023 Author Share Posted January 21, 2023 Mark, What do you do for a seal/isolator between the face of the lens and the ring? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) I have not done my head lights on the Dodge but for the Model T this is what I have used. Model T Headlight door gasket, 6578X (modeltford.com) I have not checked to see if these are long enough. The Model A head light uses a cork gasket, it should be long enough so it could be trimmed for length but don't offhand know what the cross-section size is. Snyder's carriers them as well as other Model A parts suppliers. I was going to post a link to Snyder's but there seems to be problems with the site. The other thing you can use is cotton rope or sash cord. Think you can get in different diameters, something like 1/8-3/16" might work. Unless someone can post the actual diameter, you might have to experiment a little to find the best fit. Whatever you use has to have some squish. Edited January 21, 2023 by Mark Gregush (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) I got some square or slightly rectangular cork lens seal to go in channeled reflectors from https://www.stevesautorestorations.com/ in Oregon. I used it on a Pontiac and there was considerable extra length. It was not the cheapest source, but is pure cork (no rubber). I'm told the rubber content in cork/rubber gasketing sold by some outlets can cause tarnish of the silver on the reflector. That sounds likely to be true, but I have not personally experienced it, so I can't say for sure. Edited January 21, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Gregush Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) Cork Headlight Gaskets (stevesautorestorations.com) I also noted that on the last line in the description for the gaskets, it was mentioned something about reflector re-slivering. Being in Oregon, have not bought from them, so don't know if actually silver or having them done in the Uviria Inc. 541-956-6880 process. Uviria coats in aluminum, polishes then seal coats giving close to the same results as silver plating. Edited January 22, 2023 by Mark Gregush (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 One difference between 1917 and 1923 bodies is that the early body was smooth whereas the later units had a screw in the rear for adjustment of the reflector. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 22, 2023 Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) It looks like mine have only the rope seal, Al. Each of my headlight rims has one broken lens retaining clip. I need to make a couple of new ones and braze them to the rims. Has anybody ever made one of those clips? My clips don't look quite like the ones in Minibago's picture below. Edited January 23, 2023 by 22touring addition (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 24, 2023 Author Share Posted January 24, 2023 This is a good point. Has anyone else used McMaster-Carr to buy a piece of light gauge spring steel then form it into one of these "Clips". Once formed it could be tempered to allow for the little tab that holds the lens would not just bend out of position but under spring pressure would do the job it was intended to do. It looks like I will be doing some silver soldering of stress cracks, but after i anneal them so we can minimize the crack damage that will simple keep on going if unabated. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) What is the best silver polish to attempt to rejuvenate the reflectors? I don't want to rub off the silver plating in an attempt to improve the luster. Alan Edited January 25, 2023 by alsfarms Clarity (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 I understand that any attempt to polish a reflector with any product will make things much worse. Re-silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Or!!! Here is an article from a Ford enthusiast. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 26, 2023 Author Share Posted January 26, 2023 Minibago, Thank you for bring this write up on cleaning silver plate reflectors to this forum and share. I note that this method does not make any mention of physical buffing at all. Our conversation above discusses what is needed to seal and keep the reflector dry and clean. Certainly, it is prudent to pay attention to these details while restoring headlamps. Al 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share Posted January 28, 2023 Nat, yes, if I were going to get real scientific about this little project, professional help would be important. However, I have had satisfactory results with small projects like this in the past. All I desire is a bit of temper to put a bit of spring in the tab that holds the lens in place. To soft and it will bend to hard and it will become brittle and break. Been there done that..... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Look under the bed, find your smashed old wind-up alarm clock,and steal some flat spring. Goodwill might have something if you tossed the old one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minibago Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Spring steel sheet 1/2 mm thick is available on ebay very cheaply. Judicious use of a grinding wheel set should do the job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Not to muddy the waters but I thought I would post photos of how my '25 headlight reflector and ring are retained. I believe the ring is incorrect for a '25 (not as much OD chamfer) but the earlier style do fit. I'm kind of wondering if I have them assembled right after seeing the photos here (where the clip is behind the reflector). I also need to get some cork gasket material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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