Valve train advice needed

[Qwertyuiop]

So i just bought a 63 running and driving project that had a lifter tick. Changed the oil and drove it a few days with no change. Decided to check it out and found some wear on the rocker shafts and definitely the feet. One valve has an indent in the top of the stem, and the last lifter i pulled was pitted pretty good. The cam is worn but not damaged to an unusable extent by the pitted lifter. The car ran Good otherwise, im basically doctoring what i found and trying to quiet the tick and just drive it for a bit until i decide to pull it and do a rebuild.

   my plan is installing new lifters( i know its a gamble) and grinding down the indent in the valve stem as flat as i can, and maybe replacing the feet on the rockers.

  My questions are what is a recommended source for lifters? I was thinking nailheadbuick.com or oldbuickparts but ive dealt with neither an im open to suggestions.

 

two- can you still find just the press in feet for the rockers? or should i just bite the bullet and get new assemblies. 
 

and third- how much wear can exist before the lifters reach their fully extended limit and cant take up slack? Just wondering if i take some material off the valve stem plus the wear in the feet, if im at risk. 
 

i know this is not the proper course of action and i should just tear it out and do everything but i just want to try and enjoy it before it gets torn down indefinitely. Things tend to snowball and you end up in a two year restoration.

 

also the pitted lifter and the valve damage were on opposite sides of the motor, not the same valve/cam lobe.
 

thanks for any advice/ideas

Edited January 4, 2023 by Qwertyuiop (see edit history)

[Dundee]

Rockauto.com..?

[XframeFX]

My project has become a 3X unit.

Why not do it once and replace as necessary?

I used Sealed Power HT896 lifters. Might be off-shore by now. Any beter lifters out there?

[RivNut]

Check with the Martins for lifters.  As far as up I know, the nailheads and the 340/350:small blocks use the same lifters. Russ and his son Matt have a website that shows parts and gives tech advice. Google “Russ Martin Nailhead.”  Tom Telesco on this forum is also a supplier of parts and advice, he’ll have to tell you what parts he has.  He says “If I don’t have it, you don’t need it.” 😁

[crowvet]

I hate to be the negative Nellie here, but if you put new lifters on that cam, it will cut it down in a 100 miles. Cam and lifters need to break in as a set at 2000 rpm for the first 10 minutes of run time. That cam has lost its chrome hardening as well as those lifters, which is fine because they were broke in together. Your new lifters will cut that cam like butter. That cam is worn out in my opinion. At least do the cam/lifters and  timing chain and gears. Good luck with the project. It is a pretty car.

 

[JZRIV]

Welcome to the forum. Careful not to complicate your life. Replacing lifters will probably fix it but you'd be replacing them all for one culprit. It would have been good if you could have isolated the tapping lifter and focus on that one only. Maybe its just gummed up inside. They can be disassembled and cleaned. I'd be inclined to do that first. You can replace lifters without the cam but why do them all if only one is ticking. The more you can leave things alone and not start the snowball effect, the better off you will be until you decide to do a full rebuild. These engines can tolerate quite a bit of wear in the valve train. If needed you can buy a good name brand lifter through Rock Auto or local NAPA. Leave everything else as is. Put it back together and run it. Maybe Telriv or Tom M will chime in with better advice.  

Edited January 4, 2023 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[Qwertyuiop]

Yea I really want to do as little as possible to just try and remedy the tick. Im pretty sure it was coming from cyl 5. The pitted lifter was on number 4. Its worth a shot to try and keep it together. I have too many long term projects. Ill get the lifters soaking and see what i find

Edited January 4, 2023 by Qwertyuiop (see edit history)

[Bloo]

That cam is toast. Replace it. It's not usable. It is already gone.

 

If it weren't toast, you can replace one lifter with some caveats. What people have told you about the cam and lifter breaking in together is true, so never mix them up. They need to go back in the same holes they came out of. It is also true that it would be technically better to clean out or repair the old one if you can. It broke in with the cam.

 

To replace one, isolate the bad one, and get a new one (preferable) or a handful of undamaged junkyard ones. Make sure the wear surface is still convex. You then need to start the engine with the valve cover off, rev it up to 2000 RPM or so and see if your new lifter spins. Look for the pushrod to be turning. Hold it up at that higher speed for a minute or 2. It better keep turning when you let it down to idle. If it won't turn or keep turning try a different lifter. It doesn't need to turn much, but it does need to turn. Most engines will throw oil everywhere. You will need to control that somehow. I don't know how that's done on a Nailhead. The chevy guys have clips that help with the oil mess. Once you know the lifter turns you are good to go.

 

Unfortunately none of that matters here because that cam is shot. That lobe is going to be completely round in a few miles, and if it is an exhaust lobe you will need to be towed. Replace the cam, lifters, and probably the timing chain now.

 

I would not grind on the tips of the rockers or the valve stems. Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge, Buick never had selective pushrods for the nailhead, preferring to keep a bunch of parameters exact in the valve job (stem height, etc.). That way the geometry was correct and the pushrods could be all the same length. To fix that right you need to pull the heads and have the valve job done and the rocker feet fixed or replaced by a machinist who either understands the nailhead well, or who can read a book.... If you grind on them, best case it will make no difference. Worst case, it will lessen the lifter preload, which is already less than stock because of the wear, and therefore might cause more valve noise. I wouldn't do it on a simple repair of a car that ran OK.

 

Now since that lobe was hosed, and the lifter was concave, that is probably where the extra clearance that made that made the noise was came from. Most likely after you replace the cam and lifters it will be fine.

 

If you must be sure before you start it, you must divert into Ford territory. Some Fords set lifter preload with selective pushrods, rather than nitpicking every little detail about the valve job like Buick did. On a Ford you check preload by collapsing the lifter with a lever tool on the rocker arm, and measuring the valve clearance. There will be no specification like this for the Buick probably. When I set this all up in a high mileage 390 Ford a couple years ago, I was advised by the cam grinder to use .040"-.090" preload rather than the Ford spec, which was much higher (.225"?). This even though I was using re-ground original Ford lifters. The takeaway here is that you don't need very much preload.

 

If you want to check it, what I would do is collapse a new lifter on the bench and measure how much throw it has with a dial indicator. Assemble the engine with the break in lube on the lifters, but don't soak them in oil. You want them empty. Then collapse each lifter with a homemade lever tool on the rocker arm. Check with the dial indicator at the pushrod end of the rocker, so you don't have to worry about rocker arm ratio. If they are all at least .030" less than the number you got on the bench, they will be fine. Buick most likely used a lot more preload than that originally, and they will all be fine even with the rocker tip wear. On cars that specify preload, it is usually a huge range. The main thing is that you have some preload.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

  You are leaving out a critical piece of information. What are the oil pressure readings at hot idle? If you have low oil pressure even new components in the valve train will not be happy. 

  Probably dont need to mention this but be sure the oil level is at its proper height.

Tom Mooney

[Qwertyuiop]

Yea i get what you are saying bloo. Ill have to get the cam out and see what the bearings look like. Is it feasible to replace cam bearings with the engine in? 

[Qwertyuiop]

65rivgs i never hooked a guage to it. Idiot light never came on or flickered. There was a bunch of sludge i had to clean out of the top end. Ill pull the pan to clean it and inspect the pump and main bearings.

[gungeey]

I was wondering why the top of that head looked so clean

[Qwertyuiop]

Yea this is what it looked like before 

[RivNut]

Some time ago, I saw something similar and the person posting the picture claimed it was due to using old fashioned Pennzoil. Something about the crude from which it was refined. 

[Qwertyuiop]

Yea its a 100000 mile car. I researched the grey sludge and seems to be common in 50 plus year old motors that didnt get driven much or lots of short trips 

[Bloo]

I don't know of a way to change the cam bearings in the car. You'll probably just have to live with them, and they may leak enough to cause low oil pressure at idle. That might or might not be a big deal, but I would just be really careful when you roll the cam out and hope for the best.

 

 

[Qwertyuiop]

At this point I’ll probably pull the cam and if the bearings aren’t trashed do cam, lifters, timing gears. And ill pull the heads inspect and address what i find. If the cam bearings are bad ill go ahead and pull the motor.
 

     

[EmTee]

Did you do a compression test yet?  Don't pull the heads without performing one.

[XframeFX]

19 hours ago, Qwertyuiop said:

I’ll probably pull the cam and if the bearings aren’t trashed do cam, lifters, timing gears. And ill pull the heads inspect and address what i find.

Even without pulling the heads, a major job!

Make sure to soak those timing chain cover and water pump bolts ahead of time.

 

What replacement camshafts are available today?

Any of these? Considering the yellow highlighted camshaft from TA Performance for a spare/backup:

 

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Which one of those cams on the list has factory or closest to factory specs?

[Qwertyuiop]

If this thing needs to be built can anyone recommend a nailhead builder on the east coast. North carolina area. I wont have the time to do it and would rather let someone with the specific knowledge do their thing.

[gungeey]

Three's a guy in FL doing shoddy work on theses engines. Beware.

[XframeFX]

1 hour ago, Qwertyuiop said:

If this thing needs to be built can anyone recommend a nailhead builder on the east coast.

Turbinator Bob has had his JT rebuilt recently on the east Coast

2 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Which one of those cams on the list has factory or closest to factory specs?

TA_112_401 highlited in yellow. Slightly higher lift.

Would prefer closer to stock. Either way, will have to degree a replacement crankshaft.

Recommendation on new lifters would be helpful too.

TX.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Have read on this forum that the cam on the 65 rivi with a dual quad 425 is more aggressive than the cam on a 401 and single quad 425. Would any on the list match the dual quad 425? Thanks for the schooling

Edited January 6, 2023 by arnulfo de l.a. (see edit history)

[RivNut]

21 minutes ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Have read on this forum that the cam on the 65 rivi with a dual quad 425 is more aggressive than the cam on a 401 and single quad 425. Would any on the list match the dual quad 425? Thanks for the schooling

Decide for yourself if the 2x4 cam is “more aggressive.”

 

https://www.teambuick.com/reference/nailhead_cam_specs.php

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Thanks for posting the chart ED but admittedly , i dont understand the numbers well enough to make a determination on which would be more aggresive. I see some numbers in the 401 column are higher than those in the 425 column. Although I was able to decipher that both  the single 4 barrel 425 and the dual quad 425 cams are the same except for the machined groove in the dual quad 1965-1966 groove is deeper.

[XframeFX]

Never thought of checking Rockauto for replacement camshafts until now.

Two more Camshafts to choose from as of today.

 

So far, I'd trust the TA Performance #TA_112_401

Good choice for stock replacement?

 

No specs on EngineTech cam👎

 

[RivNut]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:38 PM, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Thanks for posting the chart ED but admittedly , i dont understand the numbers well enough to make a determination on which would be more aggresive. I see some numbers in the 401 column are higher than those in the 425 column. Although I was able to decipher that both  the single 4 barrel 425 and the dual quad 425 cams are the same except for the machined groove in the dual quad 1965-1966 groove is deeper.

The dimensions on the grove is the width.  It has no bearing on the performance, it’s more of an identification item.  When Dennis Manner posted these numbers in an older Riview, he stated that the original 401 cam was the most aggressive. The only difference I see between that cam and the others is the amount of advance built in -2.5 vs .5 degrees.  Remember, your Buick gets it’s power from the torque it develops unlike Chevies and Fords who rely on HP.  Trying to get more RPMs out of a nailhead is taking the engine out of its power curve.  

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Dont care about added performance from a cam. Would much rather have factory specifications in a new cam or closet to factory spec that is on the market today. Not planning a cam change or anything just curious.

[XframeFX]

4 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Dont care about added performance from a cam. Would much rather have factory specifications in a new cam or closet to factory spec that is on the market today.

Same here. Splitting hairs with cam selection as the only change. Just want a smooth running nailhead.

A lot of work to change a camshaft in-place. So, still looking for market recommendation that offers best chance for success. If the bumpstick is longer than 2', even the grill has to come out!

 

It appears many-a-fine running nailhead had some worn-down camshaft lobes upon dis-assembly.

I am upgrading my OE timing chain replacement to include a new camshaft and lifters without pre-inspection. Don't want to pull it apart until parts are at hand. Already assuming my bumpstick is worn-out.

 

Enough research, it appears TA_112_401 from TA Performance will be my choice.

[gungeey]

NOS 63-64 BUICK CAMSHAFT 401 425 GM 1362241 1171344 | eBay

 

400 bucks

 

You always have the option of having your current one reconditioned.

[EmTee]

1 hour ago, gungeey said:

400 bucks

Really???  With those rusty bearing journals...?  Buy the TA Performance cam.

[gungeey]

No way I'm buying.🤑

 

I'm hoping someone with entrepreneurial prowess gets it and reproduces it

[XframeFX]

5 hours ago, gungeey said:

400 bucks

Thanks, but with so many online purchases gone bad with cash demands at my door, ebay only in desperation. Also, ready-to-run parts wanted.

This $400 bumpstick has the built-in advance it seems.

 

Yes, hoping that TA Performance Camshaft is available.

Becoming dis-illusioned at this point. No leaks, no smoke, no peculiar noises. Just a lumpy idle and here I'm going to tear into it. I want reliability, otherwise keep it for around town trips only.

 

Good thing I keep all receipts otherwise I wouldn't remember.

Exhaust seat inserts, Felpro head Gaskets & lifters in 1993.  Did all the wrongs things I discovered 25 years later!

 

 

 

 

[Qwertyuiop]

Put it back together to get a compression reading. It was 155-175 on the passenger side and 160-170 on the drivers. A little more variation than id like on the passenger side, but no dead cylinders.