1922 Hudson Fair grounds racer frame shorting, What kind of welding rod?

[DFeeney]

Hello my Forum friends,  I am building a early Hudson fairgrounds racer similar to the "Ira Vail"  period Hudson racer.  I have shortened the frame 20" and now have it bolted to my welding table.  I intend to  use a 30" x 7" internal bridge  which will fit inside each side of the frame rails. (15" on each side of the butt  joint)  Once I am sure everything is square and straight I will add a 30" x 7" 3/16 plate to box each side of the frame at the splice site.  What would be the best choice of welding rod?  Thanks in advance.   Life is good,  Don

Edited September 1, 2022 by DFeeney (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Most would use a MiG welder. Put some holes in the fishplate. Not a lot of stress on a small car with 40 hp. I’m no welder, but I would probably have a portable welder show up and Tig it. It’s not much money, and having an expert welding on a frame is worth it. One of those 30 years of experience deals where a self taught weekend car guru just hasn’t run fifty miles of weld. On frames and suspension……why risk it?

[wayne sheldon]

My first thought response was that "If you have to ask that question? You should NOT be attempting the weld!"

Frames and suspension welding should only be done by a professional! My opinion, and I am not a professional in spite of many miles of welding I have done.

That said.

One could do the frame the way a lot of racing car frames were done back in the day? No welding. Your fishplate, plus a heavy piece of angle iron on the inside bottom of the rail, tucked tightly into the corner. Four half inch bolts mid-side of the rail, about six to eight inches apart. Six 3/8 inch bolts near the bottom side of the rail, through both the fishplate and the angle iron, plus a few more 3/8 bolts through the fishplate near the top of it.

Spreading the bolts, spreads the stresses. Frames bolted in that way will survive almost anything that doesn't otherwise destroy the frame!

I have seen a few original frames done that way, model Ts and other bigger ones including a few heavy trucks!

[1937hd45]

The Ira Vail 1919 INDY car as it sites in South Korea in Samsung headquarters. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, DFeeney said:

  I intend to  use a 30" x 7" internal bridge  which will fit inside each side of the frame rails. (15" on each side of the butt  joint)  Once I am sure everything is square and straight I will add a 30" x 7" 3/16 plate to box each side of the frame at the splice site.  What would be the best choice of welding rod?  Thanks in advance.   Life is good,  Don

 

 I think that is a little overkill. The inner plates can be only 12" long with 6 plug welds on each side of the joint with the ends and the joint welded.

 

The boxing can be 1/8" and you can do the entire frame for rigidity.

 As another poster said, if you don't know what rod to use, you should let someone else do your welding until you learn how to weld.

 

12 hours ago, DFeeney said:

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Looks like an ambitious project, cant wait to see it finished. I kinda agree with the 2 other posters. I have done a lot of mig welding in my time but not sure I would trust myself with a frame. It looks like you have a pretty decent settup, most guys I know dont have a welding table of that degree! I would guess by looking you may know more than a lot of us on here.

And I guess I will be that guy but I believe its called a 'Flitch Plate', lol.

[Rusty_OToole]

20 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

My first thought response was that "If you have to ask that question? You should NOT be attempting the weld!"

Frames and suspension welding should only be done by a professional! My opinion, and I am not a professional in spite of many miles of welding I have done.

That said.

One could do the frame the way a lot of racing car frames were done back in the day? No welding. Your fishplate, plus a heavy piece of angle iron on the inside bottom of the rail, tucked tightly into the corner. Four half inch bolts mid-side of the rail, about six to eight inches apart. Six 3/8 inch bolts near the bottom side of the rail, through both the fishplate and the angle iron, plus a few more 3/8 bolts through the fishplate near the top of it.

Spreading the bolts, spreads the stresses. Frames bolted in that way will survive almost anything that doesn't otherwise destroy the frame!

I have seen a few original frames done that way, model Ts and other bigger ones including a few heavy trucks!

I saw a 1926 Buick hearse that had been lengthened 3 feet this way when new. The owner told me this is how they were done at the time, welding was not strong enough but overlapping a length of steel channel on the frame and bolting it together was much stronger.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I have not confirmed the etymology. However, apparently the term "fish plate" originated (or became known early on?) for the steel plates bolted in to join sections of railroad rails. The story goes that some early versions resembled the shape of a fish.

An early mistake in the design of the new model T Ford in 1908, was that Ford ordered about two thousand of the new, longer, model T frames in the same material thickness as the smaller lighter model N/R/S earlier Ford cars. The frames were bought and paid for, then it was quickly found that they weren't strong enough for the new heavier car! So, Ford had fish plates made to fit most of the length of the frame, and had their workers rivet the fish plates into place! Having a model T early enough to have the "fish plate frame" is a badge of honor and something early T owners brag bout!

 

I had to look up "flitch plate". It apparently is generally a steel piece between two wooden boards used to add strength and rigidity. Similar idea? That term is obscure enough that Merriam Webster wants me to be a paying member in order to get that answered.

[1912Staver]

I personally steer away from mig on frames unless you have access to a very good machine and are a good welder. Most workshop size migs are too small for frame work. Something like a Millermatic 300 would work fine but I have only used 3 phase , not sure if they even make a single phase version. Wire is best if you need lots of filler material, multi pass with big fillets.The old stand by 7018 on dc reverse would be my choice for stick welding a frame.  

Edited September 2, 2022 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

Wayne, we use "flitch" plates in construction, usually where a solid beam can not be used. It's usually 2 or 3, 2"x8"s or 2"x10"s with 3/8" or 1/2" steel plate sandwiched between them, installed one at a time and thru bolted. Very strong and do not know where the name came from.

[Leif in Calif]

22 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

The Ira Vail 1919 INDY car as it sites in South Korea in Samsung headquarters. 

I saw a very similar car at a VSCC hill climb in England a few years ago. Great project! Hudson was the only "major manufacturer" to compete in the board track era. 

[TAKerry]

Yes, my background is also in construction, hence the use of 'flitch plate'. Although with the 'new' engineered framing members its been years since I have used one. I stand corrected, NOW back to the regular scheduled program!