Inherited 1949 Super convertible

[HoosierDaddy]

Hi, my name is Randy. I recently inherited a '1949 Buick Super convertible. Similar to the one in Rainman but a Super.

 

He bought the car with Texas plates in the late '80s at an auction in Nevada and shipped it home to Scottsdale. He apparently only drove it a few times to local car shows where he took first place. But he never titled it and soon parked it in his garage where it sat. I've had it gone thru and it looks and runs great.

 

But I can't find a title anywhere, just a bill of sale from the auction company. Arizona has no record of a title and that makes sense because it still has the Texas plate. Arizona won't title a car without also registering it and issuing plates. Texas has a lookup for plates and VINs but no hits on the plate and the VIN lookup chokes on old VINs.

 

Arizona won't title it without signed title from the prior owner of which I have no name or any other contact info. If the auction owned the car, not much more help since they are long out of business.

 

I see a bunch of web sites that sell history of cars based on VIN or plate but none actually guarantee any results but hint they will issue a refund with a phone call. I'm guessing they just have access to the various state data bases and I already know this car isn't in the data base for the state it was last titled in.

 

Any advise?

 

 

  

[JohnD1956]

Unfortunately the best advise is gonna carry some risk cause it would start with a call to your local police department to ask if they will check if the car was ever reported stolen. And if they certify it wasnt then go to the DMV and ask for the options. Likely a salvage title but better than nothing. 

[usnavystgc]

You said you inherited it. Do you have that in a written legal document?

[60FlatTop]

Here is another reminder to all you people with cars that have not been legally transferred into your legal ownership.

 

Especially those of you with projects. It's not the last step. It's the first step.

 

You guilty ones don't have to raise your hand, just fingers for the number of years you have owned it. If you have that many.

[JFranklin]

Check out "Bonded title" It might be what you need. My nephew inherited 4 vehicles and we found no titles but the State reissued all he was needing.

[tenugent]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Here is another reminder to all you people with cars that have not been legally transferred into your legal ownership.

 

Especially those of you with projects. It's not the last step. It's the first step.

 

You guilty ones don't have to raise your hand, just fingers for the number of years you have owned it. If you have that many.

I bought a car in Penn.in 2012 with signed tittle,tried to get tittle in my name here in Illinois in 2020,they said I had to have a bill of sale before they would apply for the new tittle?

[60FlatTop]

11 hours ago, tenugent said:

had to have a bill of sale before they would apply for the new tittle

Sales tax fraud on the casual sale of a vehicle may be one of the most common crimes committed by adult males in the United States. They were probably looking for the cash.

 

 

[HoosierDaddy]

19 hours ago, usnavystgc said:

You said you inherited it. Do you have that in a written legal document?

Absolutely.

 

The problem only exists because he wanted to avoid the expense of registering the car in AZ. Titles are only $12 but to get a title, you have to register the car at considerable cost and get insurance, etc.. The car came with Texas plates that didn't expire for 4 more years (some specialty plate only good for use in parades!). He lived in a massive gated community and may have never driven it outside except for a few car shows. Was taking a chance he wouldn't get stopped and ticketed for no insurance, no valid plate (not issued to him and not valid for a AZ resident anyway).

[JohnD1956]

5 minutes ago, HoosierDaddy said:

The problem only exists because he wanted to avoid the expense of registering the car in AZ.

Yeah, he saved some money. But at what cost?    Unfortunately,  it is now gonna be a bigger problem.  As Bernie says,  ownership proof is the first step and should be part of the purchase plan.  But I believe every State Motor Vehicle department has an option for scenarios like this.  The trick may be asking the right questions to the right person to get the correct answer.  

[HoosierDaddy]

On 4/29/2022 at 3:09 PM, JohnD1956 said:

Unfortunately the best advise is gonna carry some risk cause it would start with a call to your local police department to ask if they will check if the car was ever reported stolen. And if they certify it wasnt then go to the DMV and ask for the options. Likely a salvage title but better than nothing. 

Not much risk of stolen. He bought it at the auction below and has the bill of sale.

 

DMV says to take the car to DMV. They claim they have the ability to identify the name and address of the last known owner of this VIN in any US state. They will give that to me to certify mail a DMV form to the previous owner. If they return the form OR the letter gets returned as undeliverable, I take the form or unopened letter back to DMV and they start a 14 day clock for what reason, nobody seems to know. At the end of 14 days, I have to acquire a bond and present it to the DMV along with proof of insurance and they charge for and issue an AZ title AND a year registration.

 

I very much expect they will fail to identify the previous owner since they lived in Texas. Texas doesn't have on-line records going back that far but maybe they can do a paper/microfilm search for other DMVs. If they do find the owner name and address, I think a very good chance they have passed on or address unknown. Any of those result in new title to me. Will be more hoops if owner doesn't return the form or thinks they can get it back for free by lying. They have no chance with no report of stollen, but if they receive and don't return the form, will have to get a judge to declare my bill of sale more likely the "truth" than someone saying they didn't notice their car went missing for 33 years. LoL     

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by HoosierDaddy (see edit history)

[HoosierDaddy]

17 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Here is another reminder to all you people with cars that have not been legally transferred into your legal ownership.

 

Especially those of you with projects. It's not the last step. It's the first step.

 

You guilty ones don't have to raise your hand, just fingers for the number of years you have owned it. If you have that many.

Completely agree with your advice but technically, in this case he did have legal ownership. What he didn't do is retitle it which prevents us from selling it to anyone who does want to title it.

[JohnD1956]

Good luck..hope it works easily.

[lancemb]

@HoosierDaddydoes your handle mean you have a connection to Indiana?  In Indiana you can get a court order for a title, but it requires a quick police inspection for which the car must be in Indiana.

Edited May 2, 2022 by lancemb (see edit history)

[usnavystgc]

You could also try the Vermont loophole. I'm not gonna explain it here but it's widely available with a quick internet search.

[HoosierDaddy]

17 hours ago, lancemb said:

@HoosierDaddydoes your handle mean you have a connection to Indiana?  In Indiana you can get a court order for a title, but it requires a quick police inspection for which the car must be in Indiana.

Born there but left in '56. Too far, but thanks.

[HoosierDaddy]

16 hours ago, usnavystgc said:

You could also try the Vermont loophole. I'm not gonna explain it here but it's widely available with a quick internet search.

Thanks! I may do this. The VT "fee" of 6% of car value is not good. I'm hearing there may be an option to get a prorated refund when sold. I think my wife always wanted one of these. 😉

[60s GM Fan]

Nice car I hope you're able to get it straightened out.  Lots of fun car shows here in the Phoenix area!

[60FlatTop]

On 5/1/2022 at 12:22 PM, HoosierDaddy said:

he did have legal ownership. What he didn't do is retitle it

The transaction was never consummated in the eyes of the state. It's a three way, buyer, seller, and state. My comments are more for those storing or working on projects they really don't own.

I have owned and sold some pretty nasty old cars but I guess I never bought one that wasn't worth the great expense of insuring and licensing it. Just prior to the plague hitting I did two cars. One I paid $600 and the other was $400. Both sold with my confidence there would be no hitch and it added value to them. You are lucky you only have one. I bet there are guys out there reading this who have more than they would admit.

 

Around here the seller signs the title and leaves the buyer signature blank. Each time it sells they call it "jumping title". I followed one of them back to a 1968 casual sale to get the paperwork right. The guy said "I was 14 years old when I sold that car!" Then signed the DMV form.

 

 

[Y-JobFan]

Having the bill of sale might just save you

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Went to DMV, showed them my documentation and was sold a three day permit for 2 trips to DMV to acquire the title. Permit cost a whole dollar. First trip is for DMV to confirm the VIN and see if the lights work, etc.. Then I get a bond over the counter at a nearby bank or insurance office and take it back with the car and DMV will issue a clean title and registration in my name. But glad there was the Vermont loophole to fall back on. Somewhere along the line DMV confirms not reported stolen and not registered elsewhere, I think they did that this morning.

 

Was going to make the first visit with the car later today but the shop is searching for a fuel pump. The existing one is ejecting a fine mist. I guess I could have got fire insurance and saved a later second trip.  (joking)

Edited May 4, 2022 by HoosierDaddy (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Old fuel pumps are not compatable with ethanol fuel, or too much aging.

[HoosierDaddy]

13 hours ago, JFranklin said:

Old fuel pumps are not compatable with ethanol fuel, or too much aging.

Ironic. I'm also not compatible with too much aging. But the more ethanol the better.

[HoosierDaddy]

The first inspection by DMV is done and am now getting a surety bond required to retitle. I noticed that the inspection form has the letter I as the 3rd digit of the serial number stamped into a plate in the driver side door frame while the bill of sale has the number 1. The DMV didn't seem to mind. Hope the bond company is the same. 

 

And I think I read that number stamped that plate could be the original engine number and that different states used different numbers on titles, sometimes engine, sometimes body number, sometimes ??? before modern VINs were a thing. I'm guessing that's why none of the VIN checks I've tried recognizes my number as a valid format.

 

What's stamped into the plate is 15I378nn which apparently is what AZ is going to use for a VIN on the new title.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Buick and others of that era did use the "I" as a 1.  Also "b" as a 6 and upside down "b" as 9.  Many states did use the engine number on the title.

 

  Ben

[trimacar]

On 5/1/2022 at 12:18 PM, HoosierDaddy said:

Not much risk of stolen. He bought it at the auction below and has the bill of sale.

 

DMV says to take the car to DMV. They claim they have the ability to identify the name and address of the last known owner of this VIN in any US state. They will give that to me to certify mail a DMV form to the previous owner. If they return the form OR the letter gets returned as undeliverable, I take the form or unopened letter back to DMV and they start a 14 day clock for what reason, nobody seems to know. At the end of 14 days, I have to acquire a bond and present it to the DMV along with proof of insurance and they charge for and issue an AZ title AND a year registration.

 

I very much expect they will fail to identify the previous owner since they lived in Texas. Texas doesn't have on-line records going back that far but maybe they can do a paper/microfilm search for other DMVs. If they do find the owner name and address, I think a very good chance they have passed on or address unknown. Any of those result in new title to me. Will be more hoops if owner doesn't return the form or thinks they can get it back for free by lying. They have no chance with no report of stollen, but if they receive and don't return the form, will have to get a judge to declare my bill of sale more likely the "truth" than someone saying they didn't notice their car went missing for 33 years. LoL     

 

Wow, that brings back memories.  I sold two cars at the very first "The Auction" in Las Vagas, mid 1980s. Went there with a great friend and his wife, B.B. Crump from Baton Rouge if anyone remembers him, as he had cars for sale too.  He was selling high end cars, His collection had Duesenbergs and Ruxtons and the like.  As we stood in a lobby he gave his wife $5000 to go play the slots, saying if you need more let me know.  I gave my wife $200, which to us at the time was a large amount.  But, we were great friends, and they understood that the economic difference in our lives wasn't a problem, and off our wives went.  I sold a 1934 Pierce 840, and a 1909 Sears Highwheeler.  They both brought about the same money, $18 K each, a record for the Sears but at the time I thought low for the Pierce.  We had a great time though.  One thing I do remember is that the auction company took forever to pay me the proceeds, I'm talking two months, which I thought was not kosher...

[HoosierDaddy]

13 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Buick and others of that era did use the "I" as a 1.  Also "b" as a 6 and upside down "b" as 9.  Many states did use the engine number on the title.

 

  Ben

Thanks.

 

Am curious. Did Buick consider whatever that plate represented to be strictly numeric? But maybe used letters because they didn't have numerals to stamp (from behind), in my case there is both a numeral 1 and a letter I. Maybe they only had a single numeral 1?

[HoosierDaddy]

AZ has some privatized DMV offices and those typically have other services under the same roof. One office quoted a rate per $1,000 bond value that came to ~$500 for the size bond AZ DMV requires. BUT its above their cap. The first on-line bonding company I contacted wanted $800. Will try a few more today. DMV told me my personal insurance company should offer bonds but USAA says they don't do that.   

[dship]

A lot of DMVs (including MA) don't like the VIN plate to have screws as attachments, only rivets.  Something to consider...

[JohnD1956]

I think the ID plate screws are original. There are lots of pictures that indicate that. Same for the body tags. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

2 hours ago, dship said:

A lot of DMVs (including MA) don't like the VIN plate to have screws as attachments, only rivets.  Something to consider...

 

  Many cars of that era came with screws.  1950 Buicks came with screws.

 

  Ben

[retirednow]

52 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

  Many cars of that era came with screws.  1950 Buicks came with screws.

 

  Ben

Yes, every ‘50-‘52 Buick that I’ve seen had screws for both the pillar tag and data plate

[60s GM Fan]

AZ Third Party Vendors are horrible.  They overcharge for everything.  I sadly had to use them for my ID and title when I first moved to the east valley.  The cost shocked me because when I titled my 55 here it was a fraction of the cost.  Same goes with the 67 when she arrived.

[HoosierDaddy]

3rd Party DMV already did the level 1 inspection. They were happy with the number plate and will use what's on it as the VIN on the new title.

 

Yes, 3rd party DMV charges more but is also for-profit. My instincts (and my mechanic) tell me that could make a difference in a judgement call situation. I'll happily pay more for just the chance of avoiding extra hoops or roadblocks. 😉 I would (and have) always used the govt offices for routine transactions.