RIP Oldsmobile

[chistech]

It seems Oldsmobile has never gotten much love, by the average driver, car collectors, and especially the GM brass. When I purchased my 32 Oldsmobile I started researching the car and the brand for my restoration. What I found seems to be a disdain or lack of love for olds from the GM brass going way back to not much after the purchase from Ransom. I can assume there was animosity when Ransom started building his REOS and Oldsmobile customers went to Reos. You will find that through the years GM gave Oldsmobile somewhat of a free rein to develop new things. If those things worked, they were installed on other GM brands and then lauded for those brands. If new things failed, GM felt that they could absorb those losses as Oldsmobile was a small division. Examples are the Stromberg automatic choke of 1932. While it was advertised in literature, it wasn’t until Cadillac and Pierce’s got the choke a couple years later that a big deal was made about it. Even today, many classic car owners who have the Stromberg choke on their cars have no idea that Oldsmobiles had the choke first. I have had over half a dozen car owners look and my car and comment that they didn’t know that Oldsmobile got the automatic choke from Pierce Arrow, Caddy, or others, so I’m quick to tell them that car must be at least a 34 and my car is a 32 and Oldsmobile had it before anyone. Another controversy is the experimental F88 built on the 53-54 corvette chassis and built to not only better standards, but better options and V-8 power. All the examples were ordered destroyed because the F-88 was deemed the Corvette sales killer by Chevrolet and the GM brass agreed. A single disassembled crated example was found in a warehouse of of E L Cord, who was a friend of Harley Earl, and it’s believed Harley shipped it to him, defying the order to destroy all. In the mid 60’s GM had a strict “no racing policy” yet a single Massachusetts dealership defied that order and supported a couple local drag racers. When the dealership was threatened by GM the dealership responded by convincing the GM brass to take a good look at the car those local drag racers had developed. The 442 was born and olds went to the front of the performance pack. There are many more examples of Oldsmobile achievements most have never heard about.

        Again, I regress back to my initial statement, Oldsmobile just doesn’t get the love it deserves. It’s like a red headed step child no one appreciates. (Nothing meant to offend the redheads out there!) Recently, A one of 333, wire wheeled, deluxe Convertible Roadster just sold with a buyer’s premium of $42k. You will find 32’ Chevy cabriolets bring at least that or more but thousands of them were made and nowhere near as rare or nice as the olds. The 32 chevy cabriolet got the nickname “Baby Cadillac “ yet it was nowhere near the car the 32 DCR was. Shorter wheelbase by 3 1/2”, 14 less hp, still a manual choke, manual timing retard, no oil cooler, no full engine oil pressurization, no cabin adjustable shocks, and the list goes on. The olds was much closer to a Cadillac while the chevy was still the same old chevy.

[8E45E]

10 hours ago, Pfeil said:

In the case of Pontiac's in Canada, after 1959 the U.S. built chassis was considerably different especially the engine, transmission (automatics), and "Wide Track".

So, to the Pontiac lover in the U.S. the Canadian Pontiac was truly a Chevrolet.

What's funny is PMD ran TV ads in Canada in the 1960's with the catchy "♪ ♪Wide Track in a Pontiac!♫ ♫" music jingle for the full-size line.  What the ads didn't tell the viewer is, one could only get a Wide Track on the higher-priced US-built Pontiacs.

 

Craig

[R W Burgess]

On 4/29/2022 at 2:31 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

 

 

P.S.  I was on the assembly line when the last car was rolled out to cheers.  I cannot tell you how the cheering made me mad.  

*

*

That's sad Steve. All of the workers that has supported that car line had to be very upset!

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, 8E45E said:

What's funny is PMD ran TV ads in Canada in the 1960's with the catchy "♪ ♪Wide Track in a Pontiac!♫ ♫" music jingle for the full-size line.  What the ads didn't tell the viewer is, one could only get a Wide Track on the higher-priced US-built Pontiacs.

 

Craig

Question Craig; Were Canadian Pontiac dealers able to sell U.S. spec. Pontiacs? 

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Question Craig; Were Canadian Pontiac dealers able to sell U.S. spec. Pontiacs? 

Definitely!  My great-aunt specially ordered a 1962 Bonneville. 

 

Before 1965 when the Auto Pact was signed, one paid Buick prices for U.S. made Pontiacs in Canada, and because of that, they were a 'hard sell' for Pontiac dealers as they also sold Buicks out of the same outlet.   In most instances, Canadian Pontiac-Buick dealers did not keep U.S. Pontiacs on the lot.

 

Craig

[rocketraider]

On 4/29/2022 at 4:45 PM, Pfeil said:

THIS WAS YOUR GREAT GRANDFATHERS OLDSMOBILE

 

Marshall and Tommy Griffin with Linda Vaughn. Great picture!

 

Old No. 87 had pride of place at the 1995 OCA National Meet awards banquet in Greensboro  NC. I remember the Holiday Inn Four Seasons head banquet chef saying it was the first banquet he'd ever prepared for a car as guest of honor.

 

I have a picture of the banquet staff and 87 in the Guilford Ballroom... somewhere. Lord only knows where.

[Pfeil]

15 hours ago, chistech said:

It seems Oldsmobile has never gotten much love, by the average driver, car collectors, and especially the GM brass. When I purchased my 32 Oldsmobile I started researching the car and the brand for my restoration. What I found seems to be a disdain or lack of love for olds from the GM brass going way back to not much after the purchase from Ransom. I can assume there was animosity when Ransom started building his REOS and Oldsmobile customers went to Reos. You will find that through the years GM gave Oldsmobile somewhat of a free rein to develop new things. If those things worked, they were installed on other GM brands and then lauded for those brands. If new things failed, GM felt that they could absorb those losses as Oldsmobile was a small division. Examples are the Stromberg automatic choke of 1932. While it was advertised in literature, it wasn’t until Cadillac and Pierce’s got the choke a couple years later that a big deal was made about it. Even today, many classic car owners who have the Stromberg choke on their cars have no idea that Oldsmobiles had the choke first. I have had over half a dozen car owners look and my car and comment that they didn’t know that Oldsmobile got the automatic choke from Pierce Arrow, Caddy, or others, so I’m quick to tell them that car must be at least a 34 and my car is a 32 and Oldsmobile had it before anyone. Another controversy is the experimental F88 built on the 53-54 corvette chassis and built to not only better standards, but better options and V-8 power. All the examples were ordered destroyed because the F-88 was deemed the Corvette sales killer by Chevrolet and the GM brass agreed. A single disassembled crated example was found in a warehouse of of E L Cord, who was a friend of Harley Earl, and it’s believed Harley shipped it to him, defying the order to destroy all. In the mid 60’s GM had a strict “no racing policy” yet a single Massachusetts dealership defied that order and supported a couple local drag racers. When the dealership was threatened by GM the dealership responded by convincing the GM brass to take a good look at the car those local drag racers had developed. The 442 was born and olds went to the front of the performance pack. There are many more examples of Oldsmobile achievements most have never heard about.

        Again, I regress back to my initial statement, Oldsmobile just doesn’t get the love it deserves. It’s like a red headed step child no one appreciates. (Nothing meant to offend the redheads out there!) Recently, A one of 333, wire wheeled, deluxe Convertible Roadster just sold with a buyer’s premium of $42k. You will find 32’ Chevy cabriolets bring at least that or more but thousands of them were made and nowhere near as rare or nice as the olds. The 32 chevy cabriolet got the nickname “Baby Cadillac “ yet it was nowhere near the car the 32 DCR was. Shorter wheelbase by 3 1/2”, 14 less hp, still a manual choke, manual timing retard, no oil cooler, no full engine oil pressurization, no cabin adjustable shocks, and the list goes on. The olds was much closer to a Cadillac while the chevy was still the same old chevy.

"In the mid 60’s GM had a strict “no racing policy” yet a single Massachusetts dealership defied that order and supported a couple local drag racers. When the dealership was threatened by GM the dealership responded by convincing the GM brass to take a good look at the car those local drag racers had developed. The 442 was born and olds went to the front of the performance pack"

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I disagree on a few things you said. At the end of the 1959 NASCAR season Lee Petty and Richard Petty had been driving Oldsmobile's for some time gave up on Oldsmobile because of lack of support and went to Plymouth. Lee had said that publicly to sports TV and I happened to catch it one afternoon. It was truly a miracle Lee Petty won the Daytona 500 in 1959 in a S/88. At that time Ray Nichols Engineering and Smokey Yunick were both on Pontiac engineering's payroll. When you consider today in NASCAR the car that sits on the pole is only a few tenths of a second faster than the last place qualifier. Smokey Yunicks 1959 Pontiac Catalina was "TEN!" miles an hour faster than Lee Pettys Oldsmobile but fell out of the race when a "new" A/C fuel pump arm broke off and grenaded the timing chain and sprockets.

 In January 1963 the G.M. anti racing edict went into effect and it ended Chevrolet and Pontiac's racing involvement. Almost instantly Ray Nichols engineering went to Chrysler. Pontiac had been a dominate force drag racing and especially stock car racing from late 1956-to the beginning of 1963 season and Bunkie Knudsens win on Sunday and sell on Monday was his goal. Knudsens other slogan was you can't sell a old mans car to a young man but you can sell a young mans car to a old man. When GM pulled out of racing in Jan 1963 Knudsen had gone to Chevrolet and his hand picked chief of Pontiac engineering became the new Pontiac General Manager and his name was Pete Estes. John DeLorean who was director of advanced engineering now became Chief Engineer of Pontiac. Pontiac had gambled a great deal on racing and high performance and it had propelled Pontiac to #3 in the sales race, but with the anti racing edict suddenly Pontiac was without a stage to promote itself. What Pontiac did was because it was forced off the track it began putting performance on the street and the first car to do that was the GTO. DeLorean conceived it in what if sessions at the tech center, Jim Wangers promoted it, and GM Pete Estes put his career  on the line by going around corporate policy to make it happen. When it made it's way out the corporation was furious, but after about 34,000 cars were sold the corporation saw money and they couldn't ignore that so they ordered the other divisions to make their own GTO.  Olds made due with the new short deck Gen 2 engine-the only engine they had because the 394 was on it's way out. A year later  Chevrolet only had a 327 for the Chevelle until the Z11 came in at the end of the year option, and Buick dropped the big car nail head in the Skylark as the G/S option. Except for Pontiac and Chevrolet (remember Pontiac's old GM-Knudsen was now GM of Chevrolet), the other two General managers of Olds and Buick didn't even want such a car but 14 floor brass forced them to make it. If Pontiac hadn't introduced the GTO the other four intermediates wouldn't have made one.

  In 1961 Pontiac marketing wanted to feature Hurst floor shifters. Corporate policy said no division shall install any devise with another corporation name on it. Pontiac was able to convince the 14th floor that there was money in this by appealing to the ever-increasing youth market, 1961 is the year you will find "HURST" floor shifters and linkage of Pontiac as an option, then came the dual gate shifter for the 1967 T400 automatic. Just think if Pontiac hadn't done all the donkey work there would be no "HURST" 442 Oldsmobile's!

 

BTW, the F-88 show car was the best car of all the cars ( Bonneville, Wildcat, Corvette ) to make a sports car out of the four for production. A 324" V-8, a S/C four speed HydraMatic would run circles around a Corvette, and even later some SBC V-8's. WHAT WAS G.M. THINKING!   

 

 

 

 

[chistech]

You’re correct, I shouldn’t have said single dealership as there were others and I’m not sure why I type in single to be honest with you🤪.

[chistech]

Terry Thach made a name for himself and still holds at least one record racing Olds. 

[8E45E]

19 hours ago, R W Burgess said:

  On 4/29/2022 at 12:31 PM, Steve Moskowitz said:

 

 

P.S.  I was on the assembly line when the last car was rolled out to cheers.  I cannot tell you how the cheering made me mad.  

 

That's sad Steve. All of the workers that has supported that car line had to be very upset!

I remember in the Michael Moore film, 'Roger & Me', they showed the final GMC truck being assembled in Flint, and the workers all cheered when the last one was done.  He then asked, 'Why is everybody cheering when they were all out of a job just now?'  He never found the logic in that one.

 

Craig

[Steve Moskowitz]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

I remember in the Michael Moore film, 'Roger & Me', they showed the final GMC truck being assembled in Flint, and the workers all cheered when the last one was done.  He then asked, 'Why is everybody cheering when they were all out of a job just now?'  He never found the logic in that one.

 

Craig

I remember being furious as hundreds cheered while I was practically in tears and mad as hell.  Made no sense, workers, former Olds officials and even a few dealers.  After the event there was a reception at the REO Museum and I am afraid I was pretty candid in my comments to those involved. Celebrating the past is one thing, celebrating the end of a storied 100 year old company that provided tens of thousands of jobs for people was nothing I wanted to cheer about!

[Pfeil]

 I'm sure the end of Oldsmobile for Steve is a more personal story than most of us have had.

 For me it was an indication of something going on that was unsettling and that feeling continued every time something went down, like a little lightning bolt to the heart. Olds, Pontiac were the big ones for me, but also a sadness for Mercury and Plymouth. Except for Plymouth, the rest were middle cars. For me the middle cars going away was and is an indication where we are all headed if something is not done to stop that trajectory. I'm glad I have my Oldsmobile and Pontiac's (one Pontiac and one Olds I bought new) to enjoy, and if more than anything else to prove to the grandkids and great grandkids that Pontiac and Oldsmobile existed.     

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

 I'm sure the end of Oldsmobile for Steve is a more personal story than most of us have had.

 For me it was an indication of something going on that was unsettling and that feeling continued every time something went down, like a little lightning bolt to the heart. Olds, Pontiac were the big ones for me, but also a sadness for Mercury and Plymouth. Except for Plymouth, the rest were middle cars. For me the middle cars going away was and is an indication where we are all headed if something is not done to stop that trajectory. I'm glad I have my Oldsmobile and Pontiac's (one Pontiac and one Olds I bought new) to enjoy, and if more than anything else to prove to the grandkids and great grandkids that Pontiac and Oldsmobile existed.     

We have seen the disappearance of the American middle class.  Maybe that's because the market for them dried up!

 

Craig

[chistech]

The cheering and sis-cum-ba ( probably not spelled correctly) is part of the new corporate world these days. My job was just terminated on 5/1 along with about two hundred others. After working for the company 22 years they decided to close our division because we work face to face with our customers and a electronic survey sent out from our company to our customers, most likely the buyers or purchasing agents, showed that those who answered no longer wanted to meet face to face. A likely result of Covid and the country’s two year shutdown. Of course we didn’t meet with those buyers or purchasing agent but with those people working the floor. So with a couple hundred people losing their jobs, the company still held a celebration to kickoff its new direction and they had a teller conference with people shown being all excited and charged up. As one of those two hundred terminated employees all I can say is “really” and pretty classless.

[rocketraider]

Hate to hear that.

 

Business done without an in- person handshake is too impersonal to be considered honest. It's like when someone will not look you in the eye when talking with you. Humans were designed to interact with others and when they don't, some pretty ugly consequences are often the result.

 

Some of these corporate types really should face consequences for what they did to the companies they led down the road to ruin.

[Pfeil]

8 hours ago, 8E45E said:

We have seen the disappearance of the American middle class.  Maybe that's because the market for them dried up!

 

Craig

 The product follows the market.

[hidden_hunter]

12 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Some of these corporate types really should face consequences for what they did to the companies they led down the road to ruin.

Of course they never do, and people bemoan that we don’t make anything any more when execs were more than happy to chase a few bucks overseas before the company over there goes into business for themselves and puts the original company out of business…

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, Pfeil said:

 The product follows the market.

An example of that is Ford Mustang.   

 

From 1974 to '78 it changed direction from a high-performance sports car to a gussied up Pinto, making it the least collectible of all Mustangs.    But it still sold over a quarter million copies a year because of 'product placement' in the market at the right time.

 

Craig

[Guest]

The third generation curse.

Vanderbilt, 

du Pont,

Hilton,

Kennedy....

[trimacar]

On 5/4/2022 at 2:04 PM, 8E45E said:

We have seen the disappearance of the American middle class.  Maybe that's because the market for them dried up!

 

Craig

Yes, the middle class shrank as the upper income families increased.  Percentage of low income families has remained basically the same for six decades.

 

The upper incomes want Cadillacs, not Oldsmobiles!  We owned an Aurora and loved it…

 

As to the generation thing, a local multi million dollar company was started by the a father in 1917.  His son grew the business, his grandson ran it into the ground and sold it before the bank closed in.  The great grandson was so spoiled he might be qualified for bagging groceries…maybe…not that there’s anything wrong with trade jobs, quite the opposite…

Edited May 14, 2022 by trimacar (see edit history)

[8E45E]

6 hours ago, trimacar said:

Yes, the middle class shrank as the upper income families increased.  Percentage of low income families has remained basically the same for six decades.

 

As to the generation thing, a local multi million dollar company was started by the a father in 1917.  His son grew the business, his grandson ran it into the ground and sold it before the bank closed in.  The great grandson was so spoiled he might be qualified for bagging groceries…maybe…not that there’s anything wrong with trade jobs, quite the opposite…

I have seen family-run companies got bought out by huge, bean-counting conglomerates that could care less about the individual worker, where they get rid of long-term staff and replace them with lower priced younger help, or permanent wage freezes while the top tier directors and shareholders pad their pockets.

 

Craig

[Bryan G]

Funny that I should see this topic as I was just thinking of Oldsmobile today; I was behind an old pickup with a sticker for what had been a Pontiac-Oldsmobile-GMC dealer (and which soldiers on today as just GMC.) That got me listing off in my mind all the Olds dealers we used to have in the area, and it was quite a few. For so long they had something that would sell, even if it was just another Cutlass Ciera to someone's grandmother. But those later models were just so dishwater dull...around the time of the killing I was doing sublet work for the used car dept. of a local Ford dealer. He had more Oldsmobiles on his lot than the combo Chevrolet-Pontiac-Oldsmobile-Buick-Cadillac-GMC dealer down the street. And that was the trouble: they were all off-lease/rental fleet cars, bought cheap at the auction, totally forgettable. At least all those scratch-and-dent Intrigues put some food on my table for a while!