Advice for 1926-45 Issues Needed

[egm262]

I've been a forum member for 7 or 8 years but have only one post because I always find what I need to know from all the dedicated members who provide insight, advice, and instructions. I now need to ask for help in two areas. I am seeking information on the possibility of obtaining rings for my original pistons. The block is at the shop and shows .009 wear on the cylinders, and as a cost saving measure I am looking for .010 over rings, as I believe they were available in years gone by. The head has already been cleaned and fitted with new valves, etc. Am I foolish to think I can get away without new pistons? 

 

The other issue I have is with my exhaust manifold. As I stated in my one and only post, it does not align with the exhaust ports. I'm sure it's a result of missing studs and the car being driven to the point of overheating because of a clogged cooling system. I had success in addressing the cooling system issues thanks to this forum. I am hoping someone can help me in my quest for a manifold that will match my exhaust ports.

 

A burnt valve and a nasty oil leak between the block and the crankcase sent me down this path. Thanks for any and all help!

  

[dibarlaw]

I have had many contacts with egm262 about this car as we were the ones who originally offered on the car when it belonged to the prior owner. I drove the car after egm262 bought it and it is a very nice riding vehicle.

 He is having thing done very methodically. I understand not wanting to go all out on the engine. I am still trying to secure a better 1926 exhaust manifold for him. It should be the same as the 1925 Master engine. My friend with a 1926 chassis is reluctant to sell the manifold from the engine. I know there are others out there. He needs help getting his car back on the road. Please help!

   

Photos I took when we were considering the car.  Most concerning were the missing manifold studs and the obviously leaking exhaust. The owner at the time said he could not start and run the car because it was in his Mattress store building and could not have gas in the tank. Another red flag to me. It was not until we got home, I could zoom in on the photos I took that I saw how many studs were broken off.

[Mark Shaw]

Please post the overall length of the manifold you need. 

Not everybody knows which year and model their loose parts came from.

[egm262]

Thanks Larry and Mark! I will post the measurements when I return to PA. I am currently away from home.

[Hubert_25-25]

egm,

    Broken studs do not necessarily indicate that there is an exhaust manifold problem.  Stuck studs in the block is not uncommon, coupled with rusty steel nuts stuck to the studs, and the stud gets broken off because the focus should have been on removing the frozen nut.  Instead the stud was snapped off because heat and penetrating oil was not used on the nut.  I assume with the head off, that you have new studs being installed.  To do it properly, I suggest quality steel or stainless studs for the exhaust manifold.  You should also purchase brass fine thread nuts.  I have also used stainless steel lock washers. 

    You are also missing several of the large washers used for securing the manifold.   These are called "manifold clamp" and used for all 6 cylinder cars 1924-1928.  There are also 3 internal rings for the intake manifold connection.

Hugh    

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

egm,

    Broken studs do not necessarily indicate that there is an exhaust manifold problem.  Stuck studs in the block is not uncommon, coupled with rusty steel nuts stuck to the studs, and the stud gets broken off because the focus should have been on removing the frozen nut.  Instead the stud was snapped off because heat and penetrating oil was not used on the nut.  I assume with the head off, that you have new studs being installed.  To do it properly, I suggest quality steel or stainless studs for the exhaust manifold.  You should also purchase brass fine thread nuts.  I have also used stainless steel lock washers. 

    You are also missing several of the large washers used for securing the manifold.   These are called "manifold clamp" and used for all 6 cylinder cars 1924-1928.  There are also 3 internal rings for the intake manifold connection.

Hugh    

 

 I believe that the washers are called Belleville Washers. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bellville+Washers&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj5m__vupv2AhWLXs0KHQ98DCsQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=Bellville+Washers&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIFCAAQgAQyBggAEAoQGDoECAAQQzoGCAAQBxAeUNcIWNcIYMQLaABwAHgAgAGDAYgB0gGSAQMxLjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=sBwZYvmDDYu9tQaP-LHYAg&bih=600&biw=1253&client=opera&hs=Ye3

Edited February 25, 2022 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[egm262]

Thanks Hugh and Larry,

 

I replaced the studs shortly after purchasing the car, and now new studs were installed with the work on the head. The manifold rings were still there when I removed the manifold and replaced the studs and gasket, but I still had a nasty exhaust leak. Back then I had a friend fabricate stainless washers to match the ones that were still on the manifold, but thanks to the forum I became aware of the necessary Bellville washers and have already purchased them. I am so grateful for all the information posted on this forum. 

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

These exhaust washers are 5/16" thick.  They do have a minor amount of cupping to them, and it is possible that they are a belville washer, but they may also be simply punched out very thick washers.   Perhaps an early style of Belville and requires a couple if using modern bellvilles.  

Also wondering if you are using a copper surfaced gasket or one of those with a perforated metal facing.  You can see in my earlier photo that I to have some minor blow by.  I did notice that I had to snug the nuts up a little after driving the car for a while.  You could look at surfacing both manifolds but need to be careful with how much material is removed.     

[Robert Engle]

In the 50's, it was quite common to hone cylinder walls, Knurl the piston skirts and install oversize rings. My Dad's shop did one or two cars a week with this process.

 

Bob Engle

 

 

 

 

[Larry Schramm]

Remember, that you do not want the manifold bolts to be too tight.  The reason for the belleville washers is so the manifold can move as it expands & contracts from the heat.  If it is really tight they crack/break.  A great example of where tight ok, tighter is better IS NOT THE CASE.

[dibarlaw]

I believe the initial problem is that the EXHAUST manifold has warped enough to be no longer centering near the ports (badly). The Intake manifold is the one that takes the pilot rings.

 As to the Bellville washers my Standard had a compilation of different washers. The intake and exhaust manifold lugs were off by over 1/8" and I had to fit shims to adapt to the low spots. Repaired when I had the engine work done. The engine I got from Oregon had the correct Bellville washers, but they had them on upside down!

[egm262]

I hope these images clarify what I am dealing with. The first shows how I measured the manifold to come up with a length of 29 5/8". The second image shows that when a straight edge is placed even with the port on each end, the others do not align. I checked the head to confirm they should in fact align. When using a copper gasket I tried to split the difference without any success. I sure was relieved with Larry's post mentioning the pilot rings are only on the exhaust ports, because when I checked I only had 3 and they were labeled intake. 

 

 

 

[EmTee]

What is the purpose of the flange hanging down below the center of the manifold?  Does it provide intake manifold heat?

 

Assuming that the manifold is warped so badly that the port centers no longer align with the head, would it be possible to slice the manifold, say between #2 and #3  and also #4 and #5 and machine the joints to accept press-fit stainless collars or rings?  I believe the stock exhaust manifold on my '38 Century incorporates such a slip joint.  That would correct for both twist and longitudinal alignment, while providing thermal stress relief.  I don't know whether it's practical to do, but in theory it seems like it might save this manifold...

[dibarlaw]

EmTee:

 You are correct. Here is a photo of the 1925 Master manifolds with riser. Important! have the manifolds dressed as an assembled unit. Mine only needed about 1/32" removed to keep all in the same plane. This keeps the mounting flange thickness the same, so the Bellville washers do their job. The exhaust manifold shown above in the photo is for the 1925 Standard. It is about 4" shorter than the Master. Note. Only the 3 intake ports are bored out for the pilot (gland) rings.

 

Mine measure at 29 1/2" at the port face flange distance. 

Exhaust damper to top of #1 port flange 9 1/4".

Notice this does not have the damper spring attachment wing as yours does.

 

 

 

[Old26Buick]

I had the same leak on my 26 Standard took both manifolds to machine shop and they grind level. No more problems.

[dibarlaw]

We have found another 1926 Master manifold for egm262! Friend Peter came thru again. He will get it off the car sometime today and will check it. Networking is a great thing.

Edited March 5, 2022 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[Fred Rawling]

I have all thse parts.  Do yoy still need them?

 

Now, My 2 cents:

 

I always have the exhaust manifoild side of the head milled with a clean up cut to be sure it is straight.  

 

Check the ports on the exhaust manifold to see if it is warped.  Maybe a clean up cut would help.  I am always nervious about doing that.

 

Check the rear exhaust port of the head and manifold to see if the port in the head is blocked by the opening in the manifold being off a bit and if so open up the manifold port.

 

Several times after a head rebuild I kept blowing head gaskets.  Now if the block is not level, I have it milled also.

 

Fred Rawling

[Fred Rawling]

Woops,  I just noticed that you have a 1926. I do nothave that exhaust manifold.

 

Fred