The Porter & FRP Automobile

[alsancle]

EDIT:  I edited the title to include FRP since they are so intertwined.

 

So I learned something new today.   There was an automobile made in the US in 1920 that has a 450 Cubic engine and sold for around 10k.  It was called the Porter.   What does anybody know about these? 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by alsancle (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

Interesting. Seems like a contemporary to Locomobile and other offerings we have had recent discussions about.   Cool advertising drawings you posted. Here is a little bit of specs and listed offerings. 
 

 

[alsancle]

7 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

Interesting. Seems like a contemporary to Locomobile and other offerings we have had recent discussions about.   Cool advertising drawings you posted. Here is a little bit of specs and listed offerings.

 

I wonder where that site gets their data?   They got the cubes right.

[John Bloom]

I use it all the time and I can only think of a couple instances where it was wrong. Usually I think if they’re in doubt they leave the field blank rather than guess or put in in wrong information.

[John Bloom]

Their  vagueness/blank field on the two limousine models and One touring model make me think those were farmed out to coach builders and they only had a touring and roadster body done in house..??..

 

[JV Puleo]

Built by Finley Robertson Porter - the designer of the original Mercer Raceabout. I seem to remember something about one I saw in the last few years though I can't remember if it was on this site. It's acquisition and disposition involved some of the big names in car collecting 40 years ago, including Bill Harrah.

[John Bloom]

I searched two databases I have for Harrah and it didn’t list a Porter. 
 

125 HP in 1920 and very pricey. 
 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by John Bloom (see edit history)

[alsancle]

 

 

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_840432

 

 

This radiator emblem belonged to a Porter automobile that was manufactured by the American & British Manufacturing Corporation of Bridgeport, Connecticut between 1919 and 1922. The Porter (named after the car’s designer, Finley Robertson Porter) was an upscale automobile that could be built to order on a chassis that cost $6750, putting the total price around $10,000. The car had a four-cylinder engine and a right-hand drive, giving the car a distinctly British feel. The post-ware recession made pricey automobile sales a rarity, and only 36 Porter’s were built before the company ceased operation. The emblem reads “AMERICAN & BRITISH MFG. CORP./PORTER/BRIDGEPORT, CONN.”

Radiator emblems are small, colorful metal plates bearing an automobile manufacturer's name or logo that attached to the radiators grilles of early automobiles. Varying in shape and size, the emblems served as a small branding device, sometimes indicating the type of engine, place of manufacturing, or using an iconic image or catchy slogan to advertise their cars make and model. This emblem is part of the collection that was donated by Hubert G. Larson in 1964.

[prewarnut]

From the History of Early American Automobile Industry, "... having a bore of 4.6 in. and stroke of 6.75 in. and develops 140 hp. at 2600 r.p.m. There are four cast-in-block cylinders, each having two inlet and two exhaust valves in the head.  An exceptionally long wheelbase is provided, being 142 in."

It looks like they took a page from Ed's 4 cylinder White from a few years earlier with the 4 valves per cylinder.

[edinmass]

 

Only problem is........140 hp.........I will believe it when I see one............best guess is its a production engine........I couldn't find any period photos of a power plant......makes me very suspicious.

[Terry Harper]

Cut from "The Nautical Gazette", October, 14, 1909. Note the crank start arangement. I suspect this was a designed to be a unit installation with engine bearers, wheel etc.

 

 

The Porter was but a small part of thier business. They produced everything from marine engines to cannons.

This is thier display at the 1909 New York Boat show. (Detroit Public Library) What a stunning boat!

 

Note the Stanley Company sign. This firm produced marine engines and had no connection with the Stanley twins.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Only problem is........140 hp.........I will believe it when I see one............best guess is its a production engine........I couldn't find any period photos of a power plant......makes me very suspicious.

I suspect they have it confused somewhat with the FRP which, while also developed by Findlay Robertson Porter, was a different beast indeed!

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, John Bloom said:

I searched two databases I have for Harrah and it didn’t list a Porter. 
 

125 HP in 1920 and very pricey. 
 

 

 

 

 

I had read about the real Porter automobile in the early 1970's, and learned it was a far different animal than the made-up car used in the TV sitcom. 

 

It was from early '70's re-runs of the show that motivated me to see if there really was a 'Porter' automobile.

 

Craig

Edited December 27, 2021 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[edinmass]

In the Porter ads it says over head valves............I don’t believe it till I see it. With that bore and stroke it sure seems like a T head to me...........and I don’t buy any of it. It’s sure looks like more a paper company than anything that actually went down the road. Is there any documentation showing they actually sold and registered cars? I’ll lump the Porter in with the convertible Tucker. Except that the Tucker story actually built some cars.........

[edinmass]

 

Where is Walt? He would certainly know of such a company displaying at the Salon. I collect photos and information on all the salons from 1910 to 1932........and the shows. I have never been aware of a Porter. It was probably parked next to the Unicorn.

[Terry Harper]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

In the Porter ads it says over head valves............I don’t believe it till I see it. With that bore and stroke it sure seems like a T head to me...........and I don’t buy any of it. It’s sure looks like more a paper company than anything that actually went down the road. Is there any documentation showing they actually sold and registered cars? I’ll lump the Porter in with the convertible Tucker. Except that the Tucker story actually built some cars.........

 

I guess I need to retract a bit. In hindsight, since the Porter followed Findlay Robertson Porter's FRP which was a 4 cylinder, 16 valve OHC design, it would make sense that the Porter (also designed by him) would follow along. Here is an article and very detailed description from the "Automobile Journal" April 1920, p 16. (This is a screen shot off Google Books so please forgive the poor quality) It gives a good description of the engine: 16 valve OHC four cylinder, (4.6x6.75) with a claimed 140 hp @ 2,600 rpm. All of which follows along with the FRP though the Porter is slightly a smaller 448 CID as compared to 454 for the FRP. Note that American & British Manufacturing is the the manufacturer. Morton W. Smith was the agent.

 

From the scant information I can find Porter was first listed in 1919 and as with many immediate post WW1 automobile startups went belly up in 1922 during the post war depression. The assets and property of Porter's parent company - American & British Manufacturing Corporation A&B) was auctioned off on March 27th, 1923. ("American Machinist" March 1, 1923 p. 181) A sad end to a once great manufacturing firm that was originally founded in 1902 as the American Machine & Ordinance Company before becoming A&B in 1905 and developed a very respected line of marine engines etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper
I keep finding more stuff! (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Terry....thanks for that page. Interesting what you read............I still don't believe a four valve per cylinder over head valve arraignment. The bore and stroke still say T head to me. When White made their 16 valve four......the engine was plastered all over the Automobile Journal .......... and many others........and White never really made that many cars. With the articles on the four valves talking about White, Stutz, and Pierce.........yet no mention of a four valve overhead? I think something stinks in Denmark. Even if they built only 100 engines, you think one example would survive.......as some kid in a junk yard would have certainly used the power plant for a speedster or race car project. Also....they list their own steering box and transmission????? Hard to believe......... The chassis at 142 is HUGE for the era.....and a 12k for a asking price......one would think it would be that big........but the stated chassis weight seems MUCH too low. I'm buying drinks for anyone who comes up with a photo of the engine........... I think everything boiled down to gravy........this was a paper car company with zero sales. It will be interesting to be proven wrong..........any takers?

[Terry Harper]

Ed,

I can understand the doubt. However, the earlier FRP which preceded the Porter does indeed have 4 valves per cylinder driven by a single overhead cam and is 454 CID. I have seen the surviving 1915 FRP in the Seal Cove collection - it a very, very impressive piece of engineering! However, very, very low double digit production! As to how many Porter's were sold at those prices and at that time during the post war depression? Probably very, very few!

 

Just for the fun of it, using the parcel descriptions given in the Auction listing I located what I believe is the former property of the American & British Manufacturing Corporation. So much manufacturing history in Bridgeport!

 

I am anxious for Walt to check in too! I am hoping my quick research with limited materials meets his approval!

 

 

Here is a photo of the 1915 FRP engine though it doesn't show much!

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Ok, this is proving to be a MAJOR rabbit hole! 

 

In 1913 American & British (A&B) exhibited a truck which was a gas-electric hybrid using what they referred to as the Hoadley system. Which featured a A&B four cylinder water cooled motor connected directly to a generator driving two G.E. 4.5 HP electric motors. ("The Motor Truck", September 1913.)

 

Additionally.... it was announced in March of 1920 that American & British would be assembling Bear tractors "where it is already turning out Porter automobiles" ("Tractor World", March 1920, p21)

The Bear tractor was later brought back as the Mead-Morrison in 1925.

 

Incidentally the Bear tractor assembled by A&B at that period used an "valve in head" Stearn's engine. ("Chilton Tractor Journal", December 1, 1922)

 

 

 

 

And lastly.. what happened at the American & British bankruptcy auction? The Franklin Machine Company of Providence R.I. purchased all the "real estate, good will, drawings, patterns and practically all the personal property of the American & British Manufacturing Corporation" which included the George H. Corliss shop. ("Providence Magazine", June 1923)

 

The Franklin Machine Company records are held by the Rhode Island Historical Society just in case anyone want to know.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Walt G]

I will say what I can for now, may take some time to get back to ( have our Scottie at the vet and await news , am hoping it is good,so my focus now is zero) I have photos of completed Porter automobiles outside their factory in Ct. someplace, ; Finley Robertson Porter lived in Southampton in Bowden Square opposite Herb McCarthy's restaurant . He and Austin Clark used to drive around that area in Austin's type 35 Mercer raceabout because that is the engine that FRP was engineer for when he worked for Mercer.  I have other information as I say but am to distracted right now ,maybe even have a sales catalog on Porter not sure.

Walt

[edinmass]

Terry...I know that car, but was not making the connection. Makes sense now that the bore & stroke are that way from 1914-1915. So, its a big dollar tractor car! Wonder if they had tractor mechanics fixing it?  Sorry, I can't help myself! 🤠

 

 

.I also remember Richard telling me the car was 90 horsepower........... is that the car he had with the blower? 

Edited December 27, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

14 minutes ago, Walt G said:

I will say what I can for now, may take some time to get back to ( have our Scottie at the vet and await news , am hoping it is good,so my focus now is zero) I have photos of completed Porter automobiles outside their factory in Ct. someplace, ; Finley Robertson Porter lived in Southampton in Bowden Square opposite Herb McCarthy's restaurant . He and Austin Clark used to drive around that area in Austin's type 35 Mercer raceabout because that is the engine that FRP was engineer for when he worked for Mercer.  I have other information as I say but am to distracted right now ,maybe even have a sales catalog on Porter not sure.

Walt

 

Walt...no hurry, Scotty Dogs come first...........my big guy isn't doing too well either. 

[Terry Harper]

57 minutes ago, Walt G said:

I will say what I can for now, may take some time to get back to ( have our Scottie at the vet and await news , am hoping it is good,so my focus now is zero)

 

42 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Walt...no hurry, Scotty Dogs come first...........my big guy isn't doing too well either. 

 

Walt,

That is totally understandable! I hope its good news. Ed, same with you.

 

Its difficult to fathom how we become so attached and derive so much enjoyment from time spent with man's best friend and other furry critters. (ours happens to be a house trained rabbit.)

 

In regards to the blower... I have no  idea. Its an interesting comparison when its sitting next to the Delling designed Mercer in collection. It prompts those "what if" thoughts.

[JV Puleo]

19 hours ago, John Bloom said:

I searched two databases I have for Harrah and it didn’t list a Porter. 
 

I mixed the Porter up with the FRP that Terry posted a photo of. If I remember correctly, Harrah wanted it but the person who knew where it was did not want it to be a static exhibit and refused to tell him. He may, eventually, have found it though — it's a pretty small world in those circles.

[alsancle]

One of the references says total production of 36 cars.

 

They had enough of a presence for Rolls Royce to include them as a competitor in the American luxury market in 1920.   So a bit more than smoke and mirrors.

[JV Puleo]

According to Porter's 1964 obit in the NY times, he sold his company to the American & British Manufacturing Company who re-named the car "Porter." Of course, you can't take obits that seriously in technical matters but it seems likely that they would not want to produce a completely new engine. It doesn't say when but given what they manufactured they must have been very busy during WWI. I reads like an attempt to find a new product to take the place of artillery and the like. With the end of the war that market must have completely disappeared.

Edited December 27, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

According to Porter's 1964 obit in the NY times, he sold his company to the American & British Manufacturing Company who re-named the car "Porter." Of course, you can't take obits that seriously in technical matters but it seems likely that then did not produce a completely new engine. It doesn't say when but given what they manufactured they must have been very busy during WWI. I reads like an attempt to find a new product to take the place of artillery and the like. With the end of the war that market must have completely disappeared.

Yes, This is were it starts to get sticky. One source states that by the time the Porter was developed, Findlay Robertson Porter was no longer involved in automotive work and focused on Aircraft engines. As usual these days, all this is atributed to secondary sources rather than primary.  However... and this is where it gets interesting... Robert B. Porter was involved with both F.R.P. and British & American ("The Horseless Age", November 4, 1914) Robert B. Porter served as "Motor-car engineer" at American & British Manufacturing Corporation before severing ties with the company in early 1921. ("The Journal For the Society of Automotive Engineers", June 1921, p6). My bet is that he Robert B. Porter was the link that accounts for the similar engineering aspects of the F.R.P. and Porter.

 

Interestingly the initial plant used by the Findlay Robertson Porter Company (F.R.P.) in Port Jefferson was formaly the Metropole Motor Company. Robert B. Porter (later of American & British) was listed as the Treasurer with Findlay Robertson Porter as President ("The Hub", November 1914, p35)

Edited December 28, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I guess if anyone should know Keith Marvin of Worcester Mass it should be me, but I don't.   This is from a 1999 CCCA newsletter and it looks like Keith is a Porter expert of sorts.

He says 34 or 35 total production and notes the body builders in the last paragraph.

 

 

[edinmass]

Ok......35 cars produced......maybe......isn’t a car company. Rolls would only list them as competitors  because of the price. If memory serves me, Rolls first Springfield car was late 1921........ and things didn’t spool up till mid 1923. In my mind , a Porter was just another assembled car that almost isn’t worth a foot note. It would be fun to see a few under hood photos........

[Terry Harper]

30 minutes ago, alsancle said:

He says 34 or 35 total production and notes the body builders in the last paragraph.

Great info! The 1920 Automobile Journal article also includes Brewster, Blue Ribbon Body Company and confirms Fleetwood.

 

Since I have never heard of Blue Ribbon I did a quick search and found out that the operated out of Bridgeport, CT. ("The Automotive Manufacturer", December 1919)

 

So I looked up the Blue Ribbon Body Company which was located at 1720 Fairfield Ave in Bridgeport I didn't realize that thier primary customer was Locomobile.

 

 

 

 

Here is a cut from "Vanity Fair", Dec. 1919 which hints that Porter had 6 cars on display at a "Salon" but makes no mention where! 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[prewarnut]

I don't think I can repost due to copyright but the Klingberg family website has a "scrap-book" of sorts on Porter and some more info albeit scant: https://klingbergmotorcarseries.org/connecticut-made-cars/porter/

There is a photo of a chassis and engine on the 5th panel down. It makes sense that he (Finley) lived in the Hamptons with early production (of his FRP car) in Port Jefferson, NY which is opposite Bridgeport and still connected by the Cross Sound Ferry. Bridgeport was an industrial might at the time with great machining abilities and probably foundries....so it makes sense to locate production there. The site was about 1/2 mile east up the tracks from Locomobile's spur line interestingly.

Thanks all, I like learning!

[Terry Harper]

19 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Ok......35 cars produced......maybe......isn’t a car company. Rolls would only list them as competitors  because of the price. If memory serves me, Rolls first Springfield car was late 1921........ and things didn’t spool up till mid 1923. In my mind , a Porter was just another assembled car that almost isn’t worth a foot note. It would be fun to see a few under hood photos........

Ed, your being a humbug and so soon after Christmas (LOL)

 

Seriously, yes you are correct. Porter was just one of many, many failed firms that flashed to life than sank without so much as ripple. However, its still interesting history and has been a lot of fun to dive into - much more so than the researched-to-death makes such as Duesenberg or Rolls. Look at the fun you have had researching your White and all the really neat info you have shared. I love that stuff - it all tells an interesting story about an optimistic time in our history that will never be repeated.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I agree with Terry.   What do you want to talk about Ed?   Packard?   Duesenberg?   This is the most interesting thing we have had on here in a while.

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

...One source states that by the time the Porter was developed, Findlay Robertson Porter was no longer involved in automotive work and focused on Aircraft engines. As usual these days, all this is attributed to secondary sources rather than primary.

 

While this 1919-1920 ad specifically says "designed by Findlay Robertson Porter"...

 

 

If he was out of the car business this would suggest that the "Porter" was the "F.R.P." with a different name.

Notice that the ad specifies "16 valves overhead"

 

I give Ed about 3 weeks before he finds one!

Edited December 28, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Joe just send me your checkbook. I’ll have one up to your shop before you know it. 😎

[edinmass]

fellas I’m not complaining that it’s so obscure. I’m a little punchy from a rough day. I’m complaining that there isn’t anything really to look at as far as survivors. I love a glorified four, specially since I own two of the coolest ones on the planet. 

[JV Puleo]

If you could buy one of these for my checkbook balance you'd all have one!

 

Sure there aren't any to look at — as far as we know — but if this group doesn't know of one, who in the world does? If one still exists, and despite the low production I don't think that is impossible, it will probably show up on ebay labeled "other makes" with a seller that doesn't have a clue as to what it is.

Edited December 28, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[John Bloom]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:   This is the most interesting thing we have had on here in a while.

I was just thinking about some of the similarities between Porter and Tucker (similar production #’s, noteworthy individual as a driving force in development,   Atypical engine design among peers)....  look at all the talk Tuckers get. 
 

We won’t rest until “Porter” is on the lips of every casual car lover in America.  They need a Movie about Porter to take them mainstream.  
 

hollywood casting Ed as Findlay Robertson Porter in the Big Screen. 
 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

18 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

I was just thinking about some of the similarities between Porter and Tucker (similar production #’s, noteworthy individual as a driving force in development,   Atypical engine design among peers)....  look at all the talk Tuckers get. 
 

We won’t rest until “Porter” is on the lips of every casual car lover in America.  They need a Movie about Porter to take them mainstream.  
 

hollywood casting Ed as Findlay Robertson Porter in the Big Screen. 
 

 

 

 

I think the difference is Tucker was a stock play and Porter was an established manufacturer trying to pivot products.

 

plus the Tucker is ugly.

[John Bloom]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I think the difference is Tucker was a stock play and Porter was an established manufacturer trying to pivot products.

 

plus the Tucker is ugly.

I won’t argue those points, just pointing out that everyone has heard of Tucker, and Porter had similar production numbers and was practically speaking the most expensive car sold in America at the time.  yet tons of geeky hard-core car guys Have never heard of it.