Drum Brake Preservation and Upgrade - Anyone Use Muscle Car Brakes?

[TexRiv_63]

I am considering a complete rebuild and upgrade of the drum brake system on my 66 Dodge Monaco wagon. The first thing usually mentioned on other forums is a conversion to disc brakes but I would like to retain the factory system while attempting to improve braking performance with upgraded materials. Being a wagon my car already has a heavy duty drum setup with 11" by 3" front and 11" by 2 1/2" rear shoes which is similar to many 60s period muscle cars so I am considering buying a kit from a company called Muscle Car Brakes which includes new shoes with "Matrix Ceramic" linings, high volume wheel cylinders, and upgraded hardware. It also includes a new master cylinder which will allow me to go to a dual master setup for safety. These parts and kits get high ratings by users on muscle car forums and Facebook groups.  Has anyone here used their parts on your car? If so what was your experience, did they improve braking performance, were there any issues or problems?
Here is their website: http://www.musclecarbrakes.com/index.html

I would also be interested in comments about any other ways and sources to upgrade a drum brake system.

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, TexRiv_63 said:

I am considering buying a kit from a company called Muscle Car Brakes which includes new shoes with "Matrix Ceramic" linings, high volume wheel cylinders, and upgraded hardware. It also includes a new master cylinder which will allow me to go to a dual master setup for safety.

 

First and number one question that needs to be asked . . . . WHY???

Muscle car? are you planning to drive your wagon like a muscle car?  What speeds and acceleration curves are you looking to achieve? Are you planning a 'track day'. . . ???

Are you planning to use your wagon to TOW?  Travel trailer? Car trailer?

OR

Are you planning on touring, on mostly flat terrain? at legal road speeds, anticipating driving and traffic conditions? 

 

If you are not planning on stressing your system, the stock set up engineered by the factory will always be your best bet. But lets discuss things.

 

!. Dual master cylinder - Yeah OK maybe this is of value. It was years before cars were required to have these. However THEY DO NOTHING TO IMPROVE BRAKING!  A dual master cylinder is just a safety back up in case you suffer a loss of fluid somewhere in your system. If your system is "all new" and regularly inspected you should not have any problems.

Sheesh the number of people who dont think they have to replace the rubber brake hoses! or rebuild/replace ALL the hydraulic components. When these dual systems were being installed the automakers included a 'pressure differential switch' that activated a warning light when a failure occurred.

 

As many people who add a dual master set up to their collector car they never seem to add this feature. Then I think that if they can sense a failed brake system without a light, should they not also be able to sense a failure in a single brake system and take appropriate action?

 

BTW I would assume that as a collector, these people are inspecting their system and fluid levels regularly.

 

2. "Ceramic lining" - The number one problem in ANY brake system is heat. The purpose of a brake system is to change forward motion INTO HEAT. (friction that stops the car) City traffic? not a problem Long interstate stretch? not a problem. Going down hill, towing a trailer, and using the brake system to stay at a safe speed? BIG PROBLEM! Repeated stops from high speeds? (i.e. racing) BIG PROBLEM!  Hot brake linings work like greased lining. They lose their friction and no matter how hard you press the tire continues to roll. 

Ceramic type lining was designed to maintain an element of friction WHEN HOT. The down side is that most ceramic linings do not perform well when cold. In the 50s when Corvette put 'metallic' linings on the high performance editions they recommended dragging your brakes to heat them up when you first start out so that they would stop better. Over the years the brake engineers have worked to find a happy medium in lining materials that perform well both hot & cold, (basic quality linings today) but again you need to consider how you plan to use your car. 

 

3. Upgraded hardware -  Huh??? we are basically just talking springs here. How much better can a spring be? (beyond snapping) A weaker spring would allow the shoes to contact the drums with less pedal pressure, but it would also drag more. A stronger spring will need more pedal pressure to move the shoes into the drums. The OEM engineers figured this all out and if you just replace the 30-50 year old springs with new stock non-fatigued versions I cant see how "upgraded hardware" would be any improvement. Again 'better' springs and hardware do not make a car stop quicker. 

 

4. High volume wheel cylinders - the hydraulic pressure in a wheel cylinder is pushing against the piston and a bigger diameter piston WILL push harder against the shoes. BUT the pressure of the shoes against the drums IS NOT the only thing that stops the car. You also have the friction of the tires on the road. Size of the tire, wet or dry pavement? Anticipated stopping distance?  These are the real considerations for stopping a car.  .

A big truck hauling 80,000 pounds has big brakes but the driver knows that they are not going to stop the load alone. The load is stopped long before the foot hits the pedal. Slow speeds, engine braking, anticipating situations. The same things that an experienced thoughtful automobile driver should be considering with a car. 

 

It should be noted that a hearse/ambulance is a much heavier vehicle than a regular Cadillac. Cadillac built the chassis that were sent to coachbuilders and ALL their commercial chassis used stock, regular Cadillac brakes!  Did they overdesign the brakes on thousands of regular cars so that there would be adequate brakes on a hearse ambulance? No. I have a 1971 Cadillac ambulance 7500 pounds(!) loaded. It has regular 1971 Cadillac brakes (disc/drum) The only exception is that one coachbuilder Miller-Meteor, did swap out the real wheel cylinders for a 1/16 increase in diameter over stock wheel cylinders. I guess M-M figured that it was an improvement. 

 

So upgrade/modify/change your brakes?  The #1 question to ask yourself is how do you plan to drive your car?

If you just properly repair and restore the well designed stock system, you should be fine. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by m-mman (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

I'll try this a little differently.

 

First, higher friction linings WILL improve stopping power. The downside is that they typically cause greater wear on the drums. I don't know about your Dodge, but drums for my 1967 Olds Delta are unobtanium, so I'm hesitant to increase the rate at which they turn into scrap.

 

Second, the factory engineers weren't stupid. The OEM brake system was designed to operate over the full range of conditions the car would see. That means empty, full, hot, cold, dry pavement, sand, rain, brand new brake parts, and brakes worn to the replacement limit. The factory tested the car under all these conditions, to provide the best balance of braking force without premature lockup that can cause loss of control in a panic stop. I guarantee that NO aftermarket modified brake components have been tested to a fraction of that thoroughness.

 

Third, and most importantly, the OEM brakes are designed to work as a system. Changing the diameter of the wheel cylinders, as an example, will definitely increase the brake force at the wheel for a given pedal pressure. The problem is that this increase is proportional to piston area (which goes with diameter squared). Unless you change the AREA of the front and back cylinders by the same ratio (NOT the same diameter dimension), you will change the front-to-back brake balance. This means premature lockup at one end of the car, and possible higher chance of loss of control. This, in turn, may force you to back off on the pedal, which would make your "upgraded" brakes less effective.

 

Lastly, how do you plan to use this car? Will this be a daily driver in city traffic? Used to pull a trailer while fully loaded? Or will it just be driven to cruise night on weekends? I've personally upgraded the brakes on my older cars that are used as drivers, but again, that's based on careful design and not just buying some aftermarket kit. The cars that just get driven to shows, I'm not as worried about.

 

As I've said before, I have no problem with upgrading brakes. The problem I have is that most aftermarket brake vendors are NOT engineers, and the owners who install these parts are typically even less informed. I remain amused and amazed by all the threads on the car forums I read where someone is asking why their expensive, "upgraded" brakes are worse than OEM. If you know what you're doing and have confidence in the selection and sizing of the aftermarket brake components, have at it. If not, proceed at your own risk.

[28 Chrysler]

I don't think you will get to much "improvement" in braking unless you have you foot on the petal for long periods of time.

The brakes on Mopar wagons were designed with heavy loads in mind. I had a Chrysler wagon that could handle two slate  Brunswick pool tables at a time.

[Bloo]

Discs will only really improve things if the brakes are FADING after use. DIscs do tend to feel a little better because they are linear, and do not have the servo action of the drums. That also means that they are harder to push, so if manual they are going to have a harder pedal (or a much higher and mushier pedal). If power, they would probably require a more powerful booster. If the booster doesn't have enough power, you will run out of boost on hard braking when you need it the most.

 

Dual master cylinders are a very dubious "improvement".

 

They are necessary with disc brakes usually just because they were ubiquitous by the time disc brakes really got sorted out and widely used on American cars. You do need a huge brake fluid reservoir and that's how you get it. The fluid level goes down on disc brakes when the pads wear, and you need to not run out.

 

On drum brakes fluid capacity isn't a problem, and you have several seals that can cause failure, where a single master cylinder has only one or maybe two depending on how you look at it. On a rear wheel drive car, the brakes are split front to back. The idea is that if you have a failure you will still have the other 2 brakes. If the two you have are the fronts, the car still stops pretty well. If they are the rears..... well... they don't do much. Also you could get those 2 rears by just stomping on the parking brake.

 

In order to take advantage of the 2 remaining brakes you have to have more pedal travel because if one set fails, the pedal will be low due to the loss of fluid pressure in the other 2 brakes. You have to have enough travel to bottom out the dual master cylinder (or nearly so). Otherwise it wont matter if you still have those 2 brakes because you cant reach them. If power, the booster has to have enough travel, too. Often it doesn't.

 

Lastly, when looking at any disc brake brackets or kits, know that "bolt on" usually means that they will bolt to the spindles, nothing more. Generally speaking the engineering is up to you.

 

Enough about discs. You asked how to improve the drums. I feel particularly qualified to comment on this part because I drove a drum brake C-body Mopar almost like this up to an absurd mileage. It had nearly 400k miles on it when it got totaled (150k when i got it), so I have a lot of seat time.

 

There were 2 things that made a massive improvement in the brakes.

 

The first was "blueprinting" them (more or less). The original brake shoes have a sharp kinked edge where the shoes contact the backing plate. They dig in and cause the shoe to sit not quite square, as well as possibly drag or get stuck on the way out. Newer shoes automatically fix this to some extent because they have a flat pad on the shoe instead of the kinked edge. It tends to bridge the damage. Mine were quite bad. I took the backing plates off and chucked them in a lathe. Using a dial indicator, I ran them around and checked the height of all those pads. I straightened the plates as needed, and then welded up the damaged pads (the bottom two on each plate were worn almost through). I then ground them down flat, and checked them on the lathe to make sure they were all the same height. Then, I turned all the drums and arc-ground all the shoes to match the specs in the manual. An .006 feeler gauge at one end I think it was but don't quote me, check the manual.

 

That made an obvious significant improvement driving the car, and eliminated all the pulling to one side, spongy pedal. etc that used to plague freshly done drum brake jobs until the shoes wore in back in those days.

 

The second thing that made an even bigger difference was modern brake shoes. On the next brake job the car got after that, some years later, I replaced the linings with Non-Asbestos. I had them arc ground to match the drums, as before. These were just some middle of the road brake shoes from shortly after Asbestos was banned. They came from a warehouse that supplied a local brake-muffler chain, although I doubt they were any different than what NAPA was hawking. The difference they made was huge. They were harder, so had less servo action feel, and gave a lot more control with the power brakes, but would dig in and pull down better in a panic stop. They were more fade-resistant coming down the mountain passes around here too. I noticed similar improvements on other cars after that, some of which had manual brakes.

 

One caveat, those non-asbestos shoes, at the time (maybe still?) would expand when they broke in. You had to break them in and get them hot with the brakes adjusted a little loose, other wise you might get stuck with wheels that wont turn, and have to come back home on a tow truck. I had already heard the horror stories about that from other mechanics, so I disabled my self adjusters, left the adjustment a little loose, and went out and got them hot. Then I took them back to the shop, enabled the adjusters, and adjusted the shoes.

 

 

 

[TexRiv_63]

It's obvious I need to add more information. My car is a mostly original car which I use as a driver, not a daily driver but not a cruise queen.  I'm well aware of the excellent Chrysler Corporation engineering reputation in the 60s and I'm sure when this very large and heavy car was new its braking system was excellent when compared to other 1966 cars. Today when I drive the car I do not have confidence in its ability to make a quick stop and I am sure it can be improved with better linings and rebuilt hydraulics. Muscle Car Brakes came to my attention when I had a 67 Plymouth GTX but I sold the car before actually using them. Recent research on other sources has yielded at least a dozen users of their linings and kits reporting excellent results - greatly improved braking with lower pedal pressure, better modulation and fade resistance with no drum wear penalty and longer lining life. They have been in business for 39 years and have sold over 1 million units - these are some of reasons I am considering them. I'm open to other choices if I can hear the same level of user approval. 

[TexRiv_63]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:50 AM, Bloo said:

You asked how to improve the drums. I feel particularly qualified to comment on this part because I drove a drum brake C-body Mopar almost like this up to an absurd mileage. It had nearly 400k miles on it when it got totaled (150k when i got it), so I have a lot of seat time.

 

There were 2 things that made a massive improvement in the brakes.

 

The first was "blueprinting" them (more or less). The original brake shoes have a sharp kinked edge where the shoes contact the backing plate. They dig in and cause the shoe to sit not quite square, as well as possibly drag or get stuck on the way out. Newer shoes automatically fix this to some extent because they have a flat pad on the shoe instead of the kinked edge. It tends to bridge the damage. Mine were quite bad. I took the backing plates off and chucked them in a lathe. Using a dial indicator, I ran them around and checked the height of all those pads. I straightened the plates as needed, and then welded up the damaged pads (the bottom two on each plate were worn almost through). I then ground them down flat, and checked them on the lathe to make sure they were all the same height. Then, I turned all the drums and arc-ground all the shoes to match the specs in the manual. An .006 feeler gauge at one end I think it was but don't quote me, check the manual.

 

That made an obvious significant improvement driving the car, and eliminated all the pulling to one side, spongy pedal. etc that used to plague freshly done drum brake jobs until the shoes wore in back in those days.

 

The second thing that made an even bigger difference was modern brake shoes. On the next brake job the car got after that, some years later, I replaced the linings with Non-Asbestos. I had them arc ground to match the drums, as before. These were just some middle of the road brake shoes from shortly after Asbestos was banned. They came from a warehouse that supplied a local brake-muffler chain, although I doubt they were any different than what NAPA was hawking. The difference they made was huge. They were harder, so had less servo action feel, and gave a lot more control with the power brakes, but would dig in and pull down better in a panic stop. They were more fade-resistant coming down the mountain passes around here too. I noticed similar improvements on other cars after that, some of which had manual brakes.

 

Thanks. Interesting about the backing plates, I've done a million brake jobs but never thought to check that. Also interesting that non-asbestos shoes were such an improvement, there are a whole bunch of online comments saying that old asbestos linings will SOLVE all the problems! One thing I am concerned about is finding a shop that still cuts drums and arcs shoes these days...

[TexRiv_63]

I do realize this is the AACA forum and the emphasis is strongly on maintaining stock everything but I am still very surprised at the negative comments involving adding a dual master cylinder. This is a driver car and this is a safety related change. I've had single pot masters blow on two cars in my life and I don't need that again.

[TexRiv_63]

Here is a semi-update on my brake situation. I called John Ambrose at MCB the second week of October but the company was closed down due to a death in his family. He called me back the following week and we talked at length. Their Matrix Ceramic lining material is a proprietary blend of Kevlar, Aramid and ceramic that they originally developed more than 40 years ago for military use. Their company was originally named Praise Dyno Brake and they expanded for automotive applications then changed the name to Muscle Car Brakes. This lining has up to 38% higher coefficient of friction than stock replacement linings plus greatly increased fade resistance, wears much longer and does not create accelerated drum wear. They make the shoes here using new steel shoes from Canada. All of their hydraulic parts and hardware are American made. They do not stock drums for my C-body car so that is not an option but he said good stock drums will work fine as long as they are trued. They also do not stock C-body brake hoses so their full stage 3 kit was not in the cards. 

 

After thinking about it a few days I decided to go ahead with it and placed an online order on 10-21 for their front and rear "Brake in a Box" kits which include the shoes, hardware package, and new wheel cylinders. I then called John back to add a dual pot master cylinder to the order and he told me all of their outstanding orders have been delayed due to Covid related problems getting the Canadian shoes. So I am on hold for now, I will update further later.

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

Hi Don-

I did not see this post til now since searching for MCB's website again.  I have used their brakes exclusively since the first job on my Buick Special Wagon.  

They are the cryogenic cast drums and whatever tech shoes Praise Dyno Brake was selling early 2000's.  They are Excellent, even 20 years later.

For my other A bodies I have the shoes from MCB and they work great.  I'm about to buy some more!  Cheers.

[Littlestown Mike]

May I piggy-back another brake restoration question onto this thread?

What is the best way to preserve the appearance of the brake drums.  I am replacing all 4 drums (as well as all hydraulic components and shoes and hardware) Right now, the drums are new.  Soon they will begin to rust.  How can i stop or slow down that process?  I am thinking of paint or clear coat.  Which lasts longer in actual service?  Is there an alternative to paint or Clear?

 

Count me among those who respect the original engineering.  Not that brake systems cannot be improved, but remember it is a SYSTEM.  I will be not be racing, towing, or driving down mountains while racing and towing.  I expect the original brakes to be perfectly adequate--if requiring a little more effort than modern cars.

[gossjh]

I must admit that I have not carefully read entirely the responses. I wanted to note that decades ago I had one side of a dual system fail and found the remaining portion not capable of a strong braking action. It may not keep you safe as you might think.

[m-mman]

4 hours ago, Littlestown Mike said:

What is the best way to preserve the appearance of the brake drums.

Paint. There is a “color” called cast iron gray.  Eastwood certainly has it but I have sometimes found it at hardware stores.  
When you spray it on new or freshly cleaned iron it looks like a clear coat because the color matches so well that you don’t see any color changes. (Unless there are runs, and then it looks strange seeing “runs” in cast iron). 

[8ton]

I sent my brake shoes to Porterfield to be relined, they offer 3 different compounds, all performance minded. I had them use the RD-4 compound for me, as it is supposed to be street friendly and the easiest on the drums. They bonded and riveted the linings and arched them to my drum diameters. Hopefully I will get them installed this spring. 

For the single reservoir master cylinder,  I had it relined with brass and rebuilt by White Post Restoration. 

 

[Frank DuVal]

On 10/7/2020 at 11:01 PM, TexRiv_63 said:

I've had single pot masters blow on two cars in my life and I don't need that again.

I've had two brake line ruptures (salt caused)  on dual master cylinder cars and not really any pedal with them either! 😮