64 DeVille, won't crank, nothing works all of a sudden.

[Db64deville]

So I have been having an issue with my 64 DeVille. I tried to start it a while back, it cranked over a couple times, then everything stopped working, ignition wouldn't even activate dash lights. Headlights won't even work. And they should work regardless of the ignition.

 

Battery is brand new, so I checked the starter, and it is running fine on its own. 

Then I noticed this box on the driver's side of the engine bay above the wheel well.

It appears to have some sort of insulation melt out of it. It's worth noting that this insulation appears to have melted a while ago. But assuming this did some damage to the box, could it have just broke on me all of a sudden when I tried to start it?

I checked the fuses under the driver's side dash.

Are there any main bus fuses I should check? And if anyone could point me in the right direction of what to check, and what this box is called so I can order a new one of need be.

Thank you guys for your help, I'm still learning about these cars and honestly I'm stuck right now.

[padgett]

Sounds like a bad battery cable or ground connection. I do not recognize the module, what is it connected to ?

[rocketraider]

Would help to know how the car is equipped. On a Cadillac that transistorized module could be many things, but if it's part of the charging system could well be the culprit. Trouble is that plug doesn't look typical 60s GM, but Cadillac may have used such.

 

I'd look close at fusible links, but I cannot tell you exactly where they are on a Cadillac. Starter wiring and horn relay are common locations. Do you have a wiring diagram?

 

A long-ago poster on the Forums used to call stuff like this "Caddy-whomp". He owned several, so he knew of what he spoke.

[Db64deville]

12 hours ago, padgett said:

Sounds like a bad battery cable or ground connection. I do not recognize the module, what is it connected to ?

It is connected to the ignition coil, and runs to the firewall as well.

[F&J]

13 hours ago, Db64deville said:

Battery is brand new, so I checked the starter, and it is running fine on its own. 

Explain how you ran the starter; if you used a jumper wire from the main battery connection on the starter solenoid to the small S terminal on the solenoid and it did spin the engine, then your battery cables and connections to those cables are OK.

 

So if that's what you did, then it has to be a problem with the main power feed going to the actual harness that feeds the entire underdash systems.    

 

That feed path could be traced if you find a wire diagram, but most likely it is a heavy wire around 10 gauge coming from the main battery terminal on the starter solenoid, or the positive battery terminal at battery itself, going from there to a bulkhead connector at firewall, then into the dash harness.  

 

(if the Caddy has a positive cable terminal at the battery with also a 10 gauge wire molded into the battery terminal, then that is how the underdash gets it's power).... ( but some cars get the dash power from the 10 gauge attached to the big terminal on the starter instead of at the battery itself)

 

Those bulkhead connections can get corroded, they are male/female terminals inside the take-apart firewall bulkhead plug. 

[rocketraider]

Have you removed the distributor cap to see if car still has points and condenser, or if it's had an aftermarket electronic ignition installed?

 

Give the battery posts and cable ends a good cleaning. If the car has had aftermarket ignition installed, that should not affect headlights/horn etc as those aren't wired thru the ignition switch.

 

One other possibility. Does the car have an alarm on it? I keep going back to that plug because it doesn't look 60s factory GM to me. 

 

Wiring diagram is your friend here.

[cheezestaak2000]

that part looks way newer than 1964. is it possible that the car was once financed at a buy here pay here, and it's a remote operated kill switch? waiting years to do it's job?

 

[padgett]

The only factory transistorized ignition was the Delcotronic and that is not one. It is also not the "Guide-Matic or "Twilight Sentinel" which would not affect startting.  Blue wire is usually a turn signal. I suspect it may be a later anti-theft module but agree on checking the distributor for points.

 

perhaps this helps but I could not find anything.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[Db64deville]

7 hours ago, F&J said:

Explain how you ran the starter; if you used a jumper wire from the main battery connection on the starter solenoid to the small S terminal on the solenoid and it did spin the engine, then your battery cables and connections to those cables are OK.

 

So if that's what you did, then it has to be a problem with the main power feed going to the actual harness that feeds the entire underdash systems.    

 

That feed path could be traced if you find a wire diagram, but most likely it is a heavy wire around 10 gauge coming from the main battery terminal on the starter solenoid, or the positive battery terminal at battery itself, going from there to a bulkhead connector at firewall, then into the dash harness.  

 

(if the Caddy has a positive cable terminal at the battery with also a 10 gauge wire molded into the battery terminal, then that is how the underdash gets it's power).... ( but some cars get the dash power from the 10 gauge attached to the big terminal on the starter instead of at the battery itself)

 

Those bulkhead connections can get corroded, they are male/female terminals inside the take-apart firewall bulkhead plug. 

I initially used a jump wire and the engine spun several times then all of a sudden nothing happened. I feared I blew the starter somehow, so I pulled the starter and checked it outside of the vehicle using a spare pattern and a jump wire, and everything was still in working order.

 

I used my multimeter and checked that the main power to the starter was good. It's still getting 12v at the starter

19 hours ago, padgett said:

 

 

[padgett]

However you also need power to the solenoid for it to pull out the bendix and to crank. I think you need to trace the wires in that module and remove it.

 

Do you have a factory service manual ? Think my earliest Cadillac is a '67 but may have a section in a Chilton's.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[F&J]

1 minute ago, Db64deville said:

I used my multimeter and checked that the main power to the starter was good. It's still getting 12v at the starter

be aware that if it has a very poor connection on either main battery cable, it can sometimes show 12v at meter because there is no load at all.  Then with that type of iffy bad connection, as soon as you put any kind of load on it, then the connection fails completely again . 

 

If you suspect that, then keep the meter on the main starter solenoid terminal while then putting a heavy load on it, like headlights or starter.

 

 

[padgett]

Very good point. I shuda thunk it.

[Db64deville]

1 hour ago, F&J said:

be aware that if it has a very poor connection on either main battery cable, it can sometimes show 12v at meter because there is no load at all.  Then with that type of iffy bad connection, as soon as you put any kind of load on it, then the connection fails completely again . 

 

If you suspect that, then keep the meter on the main starter solenoid terminal while then putting a heavy load on it, like headlights or starter.

 

 

I just attempted to jump the starter with a wire, while attached to the vehicle. And I couldn't get it to turn at all. I am getting 12v at the battery and at the end of the cable touching the starter, all connections in between seem to be clean.

[Ronnie]

Test the battery cables.

 

-Set your multimeter to 12 volts DC.

-Put one lead from your meter on the negative battery post. (not the cable)

-Put the other lead from your meter on a clean metal spot on the engine block for a ground.

-Turn on the headlights and then have a helper try to start the engine.

 

If the meter reads any voltage you have a bad connection or a bad battery cable. It should read 0 volts.

 

You can do the same test with your meter between the positive battery post and the lug where the battery cable connects to the starter solenoid.

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Db64deville said:

I just attempted to jump the starter with a wire, while attached to the vehicle. And I couldn't get it to turn at all. I am getting 12v at the battery and at the end of the cable touching the starter, all connections in between seem to be clean.

 

 Describe "seem".  Have you CLEANED them?

 

  Ben

[padgett]

Also after holding on start for a few seconds, does any part of the wiring feel hot ?

[Db64deville]

 

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Also after holding on start for a few seconds, does any part of the wiring feel hot ?

Holding the ignition on doesn't appear to do anything. I can't even get the dash to light up. I also tried by passing the ignition and that didn't work either 

[Db64deville]

1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Describe "seem".  Have you CLEANED them?

 

  Ben

I pulled the connections off and wire brushed them.

[95Cardinal]

Here are the 2 wiring diagram pages for 1964 Cadillac (Series 60 & 62) from the Old car manual project website.

I don't see any devices that match the cooked module.

 

I would identify and remove anything on the car that doesn't belong there, according to the Service Manual wiring diagrams.

Then, I would restore the originally designed circuits back in place and start troubleshooting a known entity.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by 95Cardinal
added images (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I have many times found those replacement battery lugs and have the two small screws with a cover that capture the cable to the lug look fine

until you take them apart and see that they are are rusty inside.

So if you have those I would be highly suspect.